Getting Legion legendaries in BFA

[Deleted]

I'm not talking about normal, normal isn't even proper raiding. We're clearly talking about mythic which is the crux of raiding.

And once again I must repeat myself:

And this is where the argument should end. You are talking about something that is different to what I am talking about. I am talking about raiding. All of it. From LFR to Mythic. You are talking about Mythic only.

[Lodvampire]

If this is about BfA, that comment is irrelevant. As part of every expansion, things change, specs gets adjusted, stuff gets added or removed. You cannot say that any specific effect makes a spec viable in BfA, because it will be balanced around the entire toolkit, not that particular effect. BM hunter would be equally viable in BfA without that. They would just play differently and do more damage elsewhere.

Actually I was talk about how mandatory legoos was in Legion (tank God we don't have to worry about this anymore). Maybe not in Emerald Nightmare, but from NH and beyond. My example was this - BM hunters without legendary shoulders, was viable to play in a guild, with friends that not gonna kick you just because you are last spot on dps chats, sure its viable, to find a decent pre-made or even aply to serious/hardcore guild no it wasn't, and if I wrong, which other class/specs needed to have any legendary baked into baseline (not even a talent), and that's not in earlier in the xpac, its close to open the ToS raid. So, yes, some leggos was mandatory, at least to some classes/specs.

[Deleted]

Actually I was talk about how mandatory legoos was in Legion (tank God we don't have to worry about this anymore). Maybe not in Emerald Nightmare, but from NH and beyond. My example was this - BM hunters without legendary shoulders, was viable to play in a guild, with friends that not gonna kick you just because you are last spot on dps chats, sure its viable, to find a decent pre-made or even aply to serious/hardcore guild no it wasn't, and if I wrong, which other class/specs needed to have any legendary baked into baseline (not even a talent), and that's not in earlier in the xpac, its close to open the ToS raid. So, yes, some leggos was mandatory, at least to some classes/specs.

Oh boy, so many contradictions...

You start off by saying they are mandatory. Okay, that's fine, that's the point a lot of other people have made. BUT...

Then you say "Maybe not in EN". Okay, so you could actually raid without them? Awesome, that's what I wrote. Then you say BM without shoulders are viable in a friendly guild but not in a competetive guild. Mkay, you are once again making my point that legendaries are not mandatory. You can still raid without them, you just won't be viable. That's fine, never said otherwise. Yet, somehow, after all of this, you repeat that legendaries are mandatory, when you just said the exact opposite yourself....


Huh???

[Lodvampire]

Oh boy, so many contradictions...

You start off by saying they are mandatory. Okay, that's fine, that's the point a lot of other people have made. BUT...

Then you say "Maybe not in EN". Okay, so you could actually raid without them? Awesome, that's what I wrote. Then you say BM without shoulders are viable in a friendly guild but not in a competetive guild. Mkay, you are once again making my point that legendaries are not mandatory. You can still raid without them, you just won't be viable. That's fine, never said otherwise. Yet, somehow, after all of this, you repeat that legendaries are mandatory, when you just said the exact opposite yourself....


Huh???

Okay, so if is to hard to you to understand , If you wanna progress in Mythic and want to clear it before the next content launch, or even in heroics or high keys on M+, without being almost a carry you need leggos, maybe not the bis ones, but you need then, because blizzard tuned rained around people have at least 1 leggo and 35 points in your artifact (this was for nighthold), and they have to do so, because if they don't, some fights it will be ridiculous easy with the difference that some leggo made to dps increase and some mechanics of the fight (hunters with bracers got 1 min cd reduction on aspect of the turtle for instance)

[Deleted]

Okay, so if is to hard to you to understand

It's not. I truly understand that in order to progress in Mythic or be viable or make your rotation work or bla bla bla, you need legendaries. Making them mandatory for that. But just to raid? Legendaries are not mandatory. You said it yourself.

[Mosin]

You dont need legs if your teams gonna carry you, but then you dont need a mouse either.

[lolgubstep]

Not entirely true, if the gear stays the same on beta, chances are you will still use your legendaries as a statstick all the way to max. Also, there has been some discussion of bringing back legendaries, but nothing has been confirmed as to how they will distribute them. I think they mentioned that it might work like Amanthul's so just a random drop from a specific boss which i'm ok with as long as the item is actually good (yes the trink it good but a 1000 ilvl panth is better for a lot of classes)

They've already said they aren't bringing legendaries back.
They said, we like the idea of having a power item like a legendary, which is why they implemented the artifact trinket.

[Raelbo]

I'm not talking about normal, normal isn't even proper raiding. We're clearly talking about mythic which is the crux of raiding.

Dude, time for you to quit it. Go back and read the posts on the first page if you want to see what people are "clearly talking about", which was an asinine comment made by @VexxedFox:

You must not raid...

@Ambrodel was 100% correct in subtly making the point that "raiding" is not constrained to just high end Mythic progression.

The other glaring problem about the ensuing argument is that my original point to which @VexxedFox was responding wasn't even about the "necessity of Legendaries for raiding", Mythic or otherwise. It was about the necessity of the "the time sink nightmare" that has become widely and erroneously associated with the obtaining of Legendaries.

No one here has tried to argue that you don't need (even specific) legendaries to raid competitively. What we have argued is that "grinding" for legendaries has never been mandatory for anyone, regardless of whether they are world-first Mythic raiders or occasional LFRers.

In short, whatever your level of play, the amount of time and effort you need to commit to the game will ensure that you have good enough legendaries for the content you are trying to do, regardless of whether you're actively trying to obtain them or not. This is because legendaries, by design, are a passive outcome of playing the game, and the more seriously you play, the more rapidly you're going to acquire them.

This idea that people needed to grind until they got the right legendary was a knee jerk response by players who either failed to think rationally about what was actually needed, or suffered FOMO and couldn't cope with other people having better stuff than them. I am not saying that people didn't endure the "time sink nightmare", what I am saying is that didn't need to, and that it's their own fault if they did.

And the evidence is all there. EN Mythic was cleared in record time (18 hours!). Clearly people had done a lot more grinding than was necessary for the content. By the time the Nighthold arrived, any serious raider would have done enough content to ensure that they had all the legendaries for their main spec (and probably an offspec too) so the argument becomes moot anyway.

Your insistence on continually trying to turn this into an argument about the necessity of having the right legendaries if you are a competitive raider is basically just a strawman argument. You're not wrong on that point. You are wrong in raising that point in the first place, because it's irrelevant to what the discussion is actually about, namely the necessity of the grind.

[Baroclinic]

I do, but you ignore what I said because it doesn't fit in your head. So let me explain.

How did you get Atiesh, Thunderfury and Sulfuras in Vanilla? By raiding. You had to raid BEFORE you got the legendary. You could raid without legendaries.
How did you get Warglaives and Thori'dal in TBC? By raiding. You had to raid BEFORE you got the legendary. You could raid without legendaries.
How did you get Shadowmourne and Val'anyr in WotLK? By raiding. You had to raid BEFORE you got the legendary. You could raid without legendaries.
How did you get Dragonwrath and the rogue daggers in Cata? By raiding. You had to raid BEFORE you got the legendary. You could raid without legendaries.
How did you get the MOP cloaks and WOD rings? By raiding. You had to raid BEFORE you got the legendary. You could raid without legendaries.

So even here in Legion, you do NOT have to have legendaries to raid. They are NOT mandatory to raid.

Odd... I remember many of groups you needed your ring to show them by the end. Didn't raid in MoP so not sure how that went. Most the weapons were an entirely different story themselves. It took a good bit of time and effort raiding to just get those, as opposed to my first legion one that came out of a cache.

None-the-less, if I don't parse good-nuffs, no one wills loves me! Pretty sure no sane group is going to pull me into heroic content. You'd play hell even getting into normal, without atleast some goofy virtual ilvl boost from a leggo or 2 (or just being a warlock).

[Ophenia]

I think we all understand that you don't need legendaries to enter any raid. But you don't even need to have a chest or trinkets equipped either.
Legion raids are balanced around you having legendaries. Thus, they are mandatory, as much as Legion items.

We perfectly know that you technically can kill a few bosses in Legion with Ulduar set and BC trinkets. But yeah, you probably won't.

OT : I think it was already answered but they will not remove the possibility to loot them afaik. I hope they even lower their cost in essences so that you can get them all, for transmog purposes.

[Deleted]

Odd... I remember many of groups you needed your ring to show them by the end. Didn't raid in MoP so not sure how that went. Most the weapons were an entirely different story themselves. It took a good bit of time and effort raiding to just get those, as opposed to my first legion one that came out of a cache.

So proving my point while trying prove me wrong. Awesome.

What's your point?

[Raelbo]

Legion raids are balanced around you having legendaries.

Well yes, because raids are balanced according to the level of gear that people are expected to have from doing a certain amount of content, fine-tuned according what Blizzard can see we actually have. In effect it's not balanced around having legendaries so much as how much time you spend doing content.

So, for example, EN normal and heroic was balanced around the assumption that most people would have at least 1-2 random legendaries while Mythic was balanced around the assumption that most mythic raiders would have around 4-5 to choose from.

The problem is that player expectations of what they thought was needed, and tried to achieve, was insane. Hence the "time sink nightmare" that is oft complained about from people who thought it would be a good idea to grind any and all legendary awarding content until they got their BiS. The simple fact though is that Mythic EN was never balanced around everyone in the raid having their BiS legendaries. And while Nighthold was, it was also only released by the time everyone would have had them just from doing what mythic raiders do anyway.

In other words, this idea that it was necessary to focus on obtaining legendaries, and that RNG "forced" us to keep on grinding because we still didn't have our BiS, was a pure fiction.

If players had just taken a rational view of what was required of the them and played the game it was meant to be played, without getting upset at the prospect that someone else might have a better legendary than me, then we would all have got the legendaries we needed by the time we needed them without all the (self inflicted) pain and suffering.

[Ophenia]

In other words, this idea that it was necessary to focus on obtaining legendaries, and that RNG "forced" us to keep on grinding because we still didn't have our BiS, was a pure fiction.

The problem is that a few specs simply don't work without their BiS legendaries. That means automatic bench, so if you want to raid, those BiS become, indeed, mandatory.

[Raelbo]

The problem is that a few specs simply don't work without their BiS legendaries. That means automatic bench, so if you want to raid, those BiS become, indeed, mandatory.

While I have no doubt that players were benched for some fights some times, the magnitude of the problem has been grossly exaggerated.

And even if you can show me a case where a decent raider had to sit out a significant number of raids purely due to not having BiS legendary (and I am not talking NH and onwards where it could have been reasonably expected) I would argue that is a guild/raid leadership/management issue, not a game mechanics issue.

The fact is that as long as WoW has been around, player performance has always been influenced to a degree by luck. Weapons and trinkets, for example, could affect your dps just as much as having your BiS legendary. Also the impact of class choice is constantly changing over time and between encounters.

And for as long as WoW has been around, raid groups have tried to ensure that their roster is bigger than the number of available spaces. Which means there will always have to be someone being benched for every raid session, and it is reasonable that these factors would play a part in who is benched when.

So you can't really blame the legendary system when someone gets benched. A reasonable guild run by rational people isn't going to permanently bench a team member purely on the basis of bad luck. You manage the issue, benching the affected player where it is likely to make an impact on progression (eg you're consistently getting the boss down to 1-2% but need just a tiny dps push to get the kill), but make up for it by benching other members at other times where that extra 1-2% of raid dps isn't critical.

[Powerogue]

afaik You can still get wakening essence and random legendary drops in LEGION content and use them in Battle for Azeroth, but level ~116-118 legendaries start to be replaced with new expansion gear.

New legendaries will not be introduced in bfa though.

That's good to know. I was worried their passives would just die and all those advantages like those craftable boots for powerleveling old dungeons would be gone. Though I would think if that's the case certain passives would remain extremely valuable to raiding, in the same way they had to disable old set bonuses as "legacy."

[kurotori]

I'm sure it's been said a million times but I think it's best to go back to a very sparse legendary system. Honestly don't feel like Blizzard has ever really "hit the mark" with this kind of thing.

[Themanintobuildafire]

I'm sure it's been said a million times but I think it's best to go back to a very sparse legendary system. Honestly don't feel like Blizzard has ever really "hit the mark" with this kind of thing.

How is it engaging when 1-3 people in a raiding guild have a legendary which is also good for only a tier or so?

The cloak and ring with options to upgrade as the expansion moved on were the most engaging for the player base, not the few lucky people in a guild.

Considering they ditched ML cause of "trials" I can only think the attitude towards the old school leggos is at Blizzard these days.

One must really ask them selves: what is the purpose and intent of a leggo? Colors don't seem to mean shit anymore. Honestly, the whole xpac working on piece of gear could be an artifact rather than a leggo...

[Bigbazz]

What time sink? Legiondaries are a passive result of just playing the game. While the process of obtaining them could be accelerated by sinking more time into the game, it was never mandatory. Those people who insisted on sinking hundreds of hours into trying to get the best legendaries as fast as possible have only their own lack of patience and poor self control to blame if it became a nightmare.

At the start of the expansion some legendaries were worth as much as 10%+ dps vs other legendaries, some of which were not even upgrades vs non-legendary gear due to poor stat optimisation, not only that but after (I think) 4 legendaries the game auto shut off bad luck protection meaning it was faster to level and gear up an entire new character to try for a new batch of 4 "bad luck protected" legendaries than to continue playing your original char with the wrong legendaries.

The difference between a non optimal Warrior at EN launch and a 2x optimal legendaries was in the region of 20%+ damage, effectively like an entire tier of dps difference... If you were raiding at launch they felt pretty damn "mandatory" when the difference between having them and not having them was absolutely huge. Of course during the expansion a few of these issues were addressed (nerfs, buffs, stat juggling, bad luck protection fix, additional ways to gain legendaries) but they still play a huge role in the balance/performance of classes in the expansion.

They were a pretty bullshit idea from inception, lets use a brutal RNG lottery to decide what version of a class you get to play.

I'm sure it's been said a million times but I think it's best to go back to a very sparse legendary system. Honestly don't feel like Blizzard has ever really "hit the mark" with this kind of thing.

I think they hit their mark in WOTLK with Shadowmourne, the time requirement meant it remained both rare and didn't have a significant effect on world first progression, and the quests were elaborate/difficult enough to require a skilled group effort, but dedicated guilds/players over time would be able to earn the weapon, with non-heroic (mythic) guilds earning it at a slower pace due to drop rate.

Of course it doesn't work in the modern game when players will have no control over loot allocation and everyone expects equal legendaries.

[kurotori]

How is it engaging when 1-3 people in a raiding guild have a legendary which is also good for only a tier or so?

The cloak and ring with options to upgrade as the expansion moved on were the most engaging for the player base, not the few lucky people in a guild.

Considering they ditched ML cause of "trials" I can only think the attitude towards the old school leggos is at Blizzard these days.

One must really ask them selves: what is the purpose and intent of a leggo? Colors don't seem to mean shit anymore. Honestly, the whole xpac working on piece of gear could be an artifact rather than a leggo...

Maybe then the best "foot forward" is to make legendaries something that isn't a piece of gear? The idea of a one-per server "item" like a toy or mount or something else entirely maybe is a better idea, if it doesn't have an effect on PVE / PVP?

[Battlebeard]

No new legion style legendaries, no legendaries from the first tier, but that doesn't mean there won't be more classic style legendaries later on down the line.



Even Method didn't sit people for not having ideal legendaries so ... Yeah no it's never been required.

- - - Updated - - -



That was personal choice, it was never mandatory.

It was pretty mandatory. Just take my class, Rogue, over the expansion, the Shoulders have been insanely strong and the 2nd bis legendary has varied very little, bouncing between wrist/boots for Assa and wrist/gloves for Sub. Without those, you underperformed like crazy compared to Rogues who had them. Top guilds would and should pick the correct-legendary Rogues and they did.

In theory not mandatory ofc, but in practise, very much mandatory.