As Horde, i have no motivation to hate the alliance

[baskev]

Its also a matter of magnitude. The worst alliance does is a skirmish here or there, horde on the other hand flat our obliterates targets. Theramore, southshore, gilneas and now teldrassil. Greymane attacking sylvanas was a dick move, but he was given more motivation than any horde character has had to do anything. He lost his kingdom, his son and from what he knew at the time, the horde betrayed them on the broken shore. The only thing the horde really has is camp taurajo, but the alliance was given an 'out' to that because 'lul it was mercenaries #notourfault', and literally nobody cared about camp taurajo before the attack, but it was almost the only time blizz threw the horde a bone and gave them a reason to do what they do.

Heck, one of the worst cases of blizz butchering a character was garrosh. I dont mind his story or character but holy shit, blizz never actually attempted to rationalize garrys alliance hatred. he hated them like it was personal but it was never actually explained ever. They could have made an attempt at justification like trollbane hunting maghar or varian undermining him during his northrend campaign or anything, and that would have gone a long way to making sense out of him, but they didnt, they just said "heres garrosh, hes like grom hellscream, he hates the alliance too!" and thought that would be enough.

And Taurajo there was also given time to remove the civilians...something the horde has yet to do. So even if it was the alliance they where being freaking nice about in comperance to the horde.

And garrosh is worst butchering you can think of...look at what sillyvanas has done so far. It goes beyond Garrosh.
Hell even garrosh found the forsaken ressing people against their will sick.

[Mehrunes]

Well it's not like my 970+ BrM was worried about getting hurt. He could Jackie Chan a bunch of miners with picks all day. Point is: If the miners were meant to be neutrals, they would have been coded yellow and approachable by Alliance players. Or other Horde reps around we could ask questions. But there weren't. Because that's not the story Blizz wants to tell. The story is that Horde is determined to keep all the Azerite for themselves and kill any Alliance who get close. And Alliance, for some strange reasons <cough SOUTHSHORE><cough GILNEAS><cough THERAMORE> don't trust Horde enough to let them mine powerful new reagent without knowing more about it.

If Blizz wanted to tell a story about peaceful cooperation, Sylvanas could have sent messengers to Anduin, announcing the discovery. She could have proposed that Horde would mine one side of Silithus and Alliance could mine the other. She could have told Gallywix to hold off and sent Nathanos to cordon off the area until both factions agreed on what to do with it. Anduin and Sylvanas could have consulted with Magni and Khadgar and agreed not to pick at the wound but rather to look for a way to heal it.

That's not the story Blizz wants to tell.

The story Blizz told is that Alliance intruded on a Horde area. Making them the violators of Horde's sovereignty. Which gave the Horde the right to protect that sovereignty. And why would Horde miners be meant neutral? They are Horde. In a Horde mining camp. Protecting the Horde mining camp from intruders that aren't Horde. Because those intruders have no right to intrude there.

And the Alliance may distrust the Horde all it wants. That doesn't magically make their violation of Horde's sovereignty over their own camps not a violation of their sovereignty over their own camps. Their distrust that does not negate them being in the wrong. Especially since they have zero authority over what the Horde mines or not. They aren't in a position to let the Horde do anything. They are not the Horde's overlord.

Because of that, Sylvanas could have kept quiet all she wanted. Her choice. Alliance isn't entitled to her knowledge. Her not sharing her knowledge is neither here nor there to peace vs war spectrum. The Horde was just doing its own thing as far as the Alliance knew. Do they need Alliance's stamp of approval for every resource they gather, or something? Is she obligated to share with the Alliance? Is she obligated to discuss what to do with Azerite with Alliance? No to all of these. And none of that justifies Alliance's aggression. Because the Horde isn't their subject and they can mine resources without running it first by Blanduin.

Some here in forums are painting them as peaceful civilians who are being attacked for no reason by Alliance villains. If Blizz wanted Alliance to have any peaceful options for resolving the issue, there would be someone around they could talk to. There isn't. Horde NPCs attack any Alliance who come near and Horde players are quested to kill any Alliance spies they find.

And nothing of that is relevant to the issue of Alliance intruding in a place they don't belong.

Doesn't have to be my idea. You try it. Sylvanas could have handled the discovery of Azerite without starting a war; she chose to try and keep it all for the Horde and kill Alliance if they came to investigate.

Since she didn't mine the Azerite using human children as shovels, her mining the Azerite isn't her starting a war. She can mine whatever she wants to if it's not in Alliance territory and the Alliance should deal with it. Because they have no authority over what the Horde mines or not. Alliance intruding on Horde's mining camp is still them violating the peace first. The Goblins couldn't have reacted to Alliance spies intruding on their territory if the Alliance didn't intrude on their territory first.

[mickybrighteyes]

Because an armored and potentially armed Alliance goon intruding in a Horde camp is no different than an armored and potentially armed goon intruding in someone's home. They are in a place they have no right to be, are visibly a threat and the actual owner of the intruded place can defend it. If I walked on my character into Astanaar and got killed by the guards, would Alliance start the war?

>.> Horde kind of already sacked Astranaar... might not be the best example.

[Mehrunes]

You want context? The Horde has a long and gory history of using any type of weapon they can lay their hands on against the Alliance (Mana bomb, that druid school, that bell thing in Pandaria, freakin' Magnataur shipped in from Northrend...), and Sylvanas with her "If you like it, you should have tossed some plague on it"-schtick is the worst of the lot, then there's that cinematic showing that Alliance leadership realizes just how powerful Azerite is, well, you do the math...

The Alliance has waited for the Horde to strike first often enough, it's about time they started getting a bit proactive, Horde players going all "How dare they not wait to get hit first!" is quite frankly hilarious.

Except the Alliance realized no such thing in the cinematic. They outright said they have no idea what it is, assumed the Horde does and attacked over them not knowing what the Horde is mining. Which included them not knowing it's a weapon, so there goes your context. Given that, what's hilarious is you painting it as Alliance daring not to wait to get hit first. Because they had no clue what Azerite even was, let alone what the Horde wanted to do with it. So the idea of a preemptive strike simply cannot apply here. But even if they were proactive, that still wouldn't negate them being the aggressor. That's kinda the nature of a preemptive strike. So double wrongness points for you.

Also, Alliance initially wanted to use the Divine Bell too, they used bombs too, they used mana bombs too, they used the Focusing Iris too. Justifying aggression against the Horde with prejudice is misguided already, justifying it with prejudice and double standard is all sorts of wrong.

And that the Alliance is only reactive and waiting for the Horde to strike is nothing but a lie from Alliance players that can't handle the story. Alliance started the previous war. Chronicle v3 outright spelled it out for you. Just like they attacked in Alterac Valley, just like they attacked in Howling Fjord, just like they attacked in Stormheim, just like they attacked in Silithus. Almost every conflict with a confirmed aggressor in WoW was started by the Alliance.

>.> Horde kind of already sacked Astranaar... might not be the best example.

I mean during peace time. Make it any other camp. The point is that the Horde player walking into the Alliance camp is the one in the wrong, not the Alliance guards dealing with the intruder.

[ello]

Yeah, and goblins mining reagents for super weapons while Sylvanas and Nathanos plot to attack Stormwind are all just innocent victims.

in-universe perspective != third-person perspective

[Dejo93]

Tbh, this kinda feels shoehorned. I think that this is just Sylvanas being a cunt, and instead of helping to heal her world(which is dying btw), she decides to fight with the Alliance. Great one. Blizz being Blizz, I hope they actually make it interesting instead of going Garrosh 2.0 (who was a wasted character). Imo, this looks more like desperation on her side more than anything

[sam86]

in general i'm horde, but that is based on the old lore that i'm not sure what is canon from it anymore at all
in wc3 alliance were shown as giant dicks, Garithos alone was most racist (at that point) character, any non human was basically inferior to be disposed
early wow up to wrath and maybe cata (didn't really play cata) was still same general points, alliance were the assholes

then came the fucking exp of world of shit where it fucked entire older lore and make orcs just fight for fight, no blood enslavement, no demons, they go out kill innocents with zero tricks because after telling us since 2001 that orcs are actually nice ppl surprise they aren't they actually enjoy killing civilians
in mop they went to extreme length to say that Garrosh supports was minority, that his support was basically the old horde who were enemies to both alliance and horde in wow, and he recruited them, only to fuck it literally next exp

then come legion, with alliance and horde going full length to HELP each others, including risking their own lives, with only a minor skirmish of worgens vs forsaken and even that was shown to not have support of alliance or that Anduin even know about it in first place

now i'm supposed to believe horde are ok to fight their best buddies few months ago, that sylvanas main goal and long-time dream (that was NEVER shown in game prior to bfa) was to attack stormwind, and after it became general knowledge that there are things way worse than ally x horde that we must unite against (void lords), we decide to fuck it let's just kill each others ?
the only 'ok' explanation would be old gods have corrupted both side leaders, but there is zero hint about that, all we are shown is they decided to fuck it for the horde / at least we tried (i don't recall when was 'for the alliance' known war cry for them, joke aside we always used for Lordearon back then in vanilla wow, even if it didn't really make sense)
BFA has the worst premise ever in all wow exps, at least in mop when we went full war they were preparing for that over 2 exps, specially cata, legion has near zero tension between both sides, in fact u see most lore figures of opposite factions WITH each others, only to next exp go in another - maybe even bigger - full war than mop ?

[Mehrunes]

Context: Gilneas. Southshore. Theramore. "We are the Forsaken. We will slaughter anyone who stands in our way."

So context is previous war times 3 and Forsaken being willing to kill their enemies, with Alliance not being one at the time because of peace? Starting a new war because you had a war in the past still makes you the aggressor.

Yeah, and goblins mining reagents for super weapons while Sylvanas and Nathanos plot to attack Stormwind are all just innocent victims.

Since the Alliance knew squat about the Horde's plans at the time, as far as they are concerned, yes. Or do you think Alliance characters in-lore read the preview of Before the Storm?

[Verdugo]

Alliance quest is to obtain samples by any means necessary. As Alliance, if you approach the miners - even with weapons unequipped - they try to plant a pick in your face.

What about all those alliance peasants that are aggresive through the entire history of wow?

Oh right, that doesnt count, because it was self-defense or something in your mind.

[mickybrighteyes]

Since the Alliance knew squat about the Horde's plans at the time, as far as they are concerned, yes. Or do you think Alliance characters in-lore read the preview of Before the Storm?

clearly our characters know everything we know!

still doesn't explain why radios are cited as existing in game but they're never present at times like broken shore

[Mehrunes]

Its also a matter of magnitude. The worst alliance does is a skirmish here or there, horde on the other hand flat our obliterates targets. Theramore, southshore, gilneas and now teldrassil. Greymane attacking sylvanas was a dick move, but he was given more motivation than any horde character has had to do anything. He lost his kingdom, his son and from what he knew at the time, the horde betrayed them on the broken shore. The only thing the horde really has is camp taurajo, but the alliance was given an 'out' to that because 'lul it was mercenaries #notourfault', and literally nobody cared about camp taurajo before the attack, but it was almost the only time blizz threw the horde a bone and gave them a reason to do what they do.

Heck, one of the worst cases of blizz butchering a character was garrosh. I dont mind his story or character but holy shit, blizz never actually attempted to rationalize garrys alliance hatred. he hated them like it was personal but it was never actually explained ever. They could have made an attempt at justification like trollbane hunting maghar or varian undermining him during his northrend campaign or anything, and that would have gone a long way to making sense out of him, but they didnt, they just said "heres garrosh, hes like grom hellscream, he hates the alliance too!" and thought that would be enough.

Right, skirmish here and there. Before Theramore the Alliance spread across multiple Horde zones like the Barrens, Durotar, Silverpine. They tried to attack Mulgore, Tirisfal and even Orgrimmar. Before Theramore the factions were at all out war for two years already. With Alliance starting that war. And that's an ongoing pattern. Alliance starts things and Horde tries to beat them into submission as a result. But that's still on the Alliance. Because they are the aggressor. Without their aggression there would be no Horde reaction to their aggression.

And really? Genn has more motivation than any Horde character because he lost his kindgom and his son? Never mind that his totally justified dick move the future of Sylvanas and the entirety of the Forsaken has been put in jeopardy. But hey, he lost his son and territory. The travesty. Most damaged person on Azeroth right there. No one has suffered as much as he did. Poor, victimized Genn.

Enough is enough. If you can't handle the Horde not bending over and accepting their Alliance overlords into their hearts through their asses whenever the Alliance attacks them to the point you are constantly engaging in special pleading for everything the Alliance does that's against the faction peace just drop the pretenses and roll Alliance.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Given how the Alliance didn't know anything about Sylvanas' plans or even what Azerite was at the time they attacked still makes it irrelevant.




And the Alliance gets quest to kill Horde. Because the Azerite drops only from killed Goblins. The difference is, the Horde has the right to defend their mining camp from foreign intrusion. The Alliance doesn't have the right to intrude in a Horde mining camp and kill people to gather samples and blow things up. Especially since the quests imply that Alliance quests happen first (the Alliance spies haven't been discovered yet in the Alliance quests, the Horde ones start with the spies being discovered). And Alliance didn't even know what Azerite was, let alone that Sylvanas was planning anything about the Alliance. They attacked just because the Horde was gathering large quantities of a substance unknown to them.

You can't really be this naive, so I'm going to assume you are just having fun with your Horde-colored glasses.

"Given how the Alliance didn't know anything about Sylvanas' plans or even what Azerite was at the time they attacked still makes it irrelevant."

Except it's their job to know, especially given Sylvanas' history of aggression and mass destruction. That's like saying governments have no right to spy on suspected terrorists, because until they spy they have no knowledge of their plans. They spy because they want knowledge of their plans because those people have acted in the past in ways that prove they can't be trusted.

"And the Alliance gets quest to kill Horde. Because the Azerite drops only from killed Goblins."

No. Alliance gets quest to obtain samples. It's hardly Alliance's fault that Goblins attack instead of offering to share/sell/barter some samples. If there had been a Goblin selling samples for 5g or even 500g, how many players would have done that instead of killing for it? Most, I expect (although there's always some players on both sides who just want to kill stuff lol). The fact that Goblins of all people, who are usually all about making a buck, would rather die fighting than sell a few rocks under the table... just proves they are up to something and the Alliance better find out what.

"And Alliance didn't even know what Azerite was, let alone that Sylvanas was planning anything about the Alliance. They attacked just because the Horde was gathering large quantities of a substance unknown to them."

They know Sylvanas can't be trusted. We know Sylvanas can't be trusted. And no competent leader - including you if you were King of Stormwind - would fail to have spies keeping an eye on her.

[sighy]

Well it's not like my 970+ BrM was worried about getting hurt. He could Jackie Chan a bunch of miners with picks all day. Point is: If the miners were meant to be neutrals, they would have been coded yellow and approachable by Alliance players. Or other Horde reps around we could ask questions. But there weren't. Because that's not the story Blizz wants to tell. The story is that Horde is determined to keep all the Azerite for themselves and kill any Alliance who get close. And Alliance, for some strange reasons <cough SOUTHSHORE><cough GILNEAS><cough THERAMORE> don't trust Horde enough to let them mine powerful new reagent without knowing more about it.

If Blizz wanted to tell a story about peaceful cooperation, Sylvanas could have sent messengers to Anduin, announcing the discovery. She could have proposed that Horde would mine one side of Silithus and Alliance could mine the other. She could have told Gallywix to hold off and sent Nathanos to cordon off the area until both factions agreed on what to do with it. Anduin and Sylvanas could have consulted with Magni and Khadgar and agreed not to pick at the wound but rather to look for a way to heal it.

That's not the story Blizz wants to tell.

Southshore, Gilneas and Theramore, were conquered durning a war.(Well raised in 2 out of 3 cases)

Matter of the fact is that Horde is a sovereign entity and Aliance has no entitlement to the knowledge what they are mining, where they are mining and waht the "intend" to use it for. Sitting with thumbs up their ass would be stupid as hell, but they are trespassing, stealing, sabotaging, killing and spying, which are all acts of aggression in various degrees of severity.

But sure let's say that "aliance is in the right", at the end of the day they are still trying to trample on Horde's sovereignity.

So the Horde should appease the Aliance? Fuck no, are you high? that shit never works(i might be more than slightly biased against appeasal policies)

[Mehrunes]

And Taurajo there was also given time to remove the civilians...something the horde has yet to do. So even if it was the alliance they where being freaking nice about in comperance to the horde.

You mean the exact same thing that happened in Theramore?

[bloodmoth13]

Right, skirmish here and there. Before Theramore the Alliance spread across multiple Horde zones like the Barrens, Durotar, Silverpine. They tried to attack Mulgore, Tirisfal and even Orgrimmar. Before Theramore the factions were at all out war for two years already. With Alliance starting that war. And that's an ongoing pattern. Alliance starts things and Horde tries to beat them into submission as a result. But that's still on the Alliance. Because they are the aggressor. Without their aggression there would be no Horde reaction to their aggression.

And really? Genn has more motivation than any Horde character because he lost his kindgom and his son? Never mind that his totally justified dick move the future of Sylvanas and the entirety of the Forsaken has been put in jeopardy. But hey, he lost his son and territory. The travesty. Most damaged person on Azeroth right there. No one has suffered as much as he did. Poor, victimized Genn.

Enough is enough. If you can't handle the Horde not bending over and accepting their Alliance overlords into their hearts through their asses whenever the Alliance attacks them to the point you are constantly engaging in special pleading for everything the Alliance does that's against the faction peace just drop the pretenses and roll Alliance.

seriously? what a misguided response...
Claiming that the alliance is responsible for kul tiras actions in durotar is equivalent to claiming the horde is responsible for the blackrock orcs. And are you seriously comparing minor aggression to bombing cities?

Give me a horde character who has been given more motivation to fight the alliance than genn has been given to fight the horde then. Go on. its laughable that you attempt to downplay having your child killed and kingdom lost like its inconsequential, and again, no horde character has had that! thats what im talking about, the horde isnt given motivation like that, and when they do have it, blizzard forgets it or buries it. Forsaken could have attacked gilneas as vengeance for being cowards during the third war and not helping them against the scourge, but blizz ignore things like that because it makes the alliance look bad. and yeah he is victimized, blizz has victimized him and given him a boat load of motivation and justification for basically anything he does, they dont do this with horde characters, they lose nothing and do bad shit for trivial reasons.

WHOOOOOOOOSH!!!! its like everything i say just goes right over your head, im not asking for the horde to get along with the alliance, im not complaining that sylvanas is attacking the alliance, im not bothered that there is a war happening. NO. Im annoyed that blizz has spared no effort in explaining why the horde is doing any of this. Burning down a capital is 10/10 response, having some spies kill some shady workers is maybe a 3/10, all i argue is that if the horde is going up to 10, then we need a damn good reason to do it, like having the battle for the undercity happening first.

Let me make it clear, i WANT faction conflict, i just expect it to make sense for both sides to fight.

[Cyram]

Context: Gilneas. Southshore. Theramore. "We are the Forsaken. We will slaughter anyone who stands in our way."

No, mate, that's not the context, and that's not the perspective.
The Horde knew about what Azerite could do. The Alliance didn't.
The Alliance, instead of going to Silithus with miners, decided to engage in an act of war by sendind spies there and taking ores of Azerite off of the Goblins.
If you still think the Horde started this, then you should read on Witness to the Wound, Free Samples (in which they stated that Alliance spies infiltrated Horde camps but haven't been able to steal the samples, so they send the PC to kill and take azerite for the Alliance), or even the not-so-subtle quest "It's a Sabotage", in which you deliberately destroy Horde Shredders.
Had the Alliance sent miners that the Horde killed because lulnoonetakesmahazerite I would've been with you in the idea of Horde starting this war... but Anduin and his bois sent Alliance spies to steal research and minerals during a time of peace (which was briefly disrupted by Genn himself, but that's another bone to chew on on another time, or maybe another thread).

[Mehrunes]

You can't really be this naive, so I'm going to assume you are just having fun with your Horde-colored glasses.

I can't be this naive to what? Belive Shaw and Anduin when they outright said they don't know what Azerite is, which was the reason they sent more spies (that attacked the Horde)? Which automatically means they couldn't have known what the Horde wanted to do with it because if you don't know what something is you don't know its properties and uses? You sure got me and my Horde-colored glasses right here.

"Given how the Alliance didn't know anything about Sylvanas' plans or even what Azerite was at the time they attacked still makes it irrelevant."

Except it's their job to know, especially given Sylvanas' history of aggression and mass destruction. That's like saying governments have no right to spy on suspected terrorists, because until they spy they have no knowledge of their plans. They spy because they want knowledge of their plans because those people have acted in the past in ways that prove they can't be trusted.

It's their job to know? So what, every time someone needs to know something related to their job they learn it automatically? That'd make spies irrelevant. Yet Alliance sent them.

And what Sylvanas' history of aggression? Sylvanas started to steamroll the Alliance only after Alliance started a world war. Which they declared right in her own city, in her very throne room, with Alliance leader trying to kill her right after the declaration of war. Before that the Alliance attacked the Forsaken fleet in Vengeance Landing. Other than that, the Forsaken engaged in border fuckery with the Alliance without it being confirmed who started things in Vanilla. The only implication we have on that is Nathanos' opinions on humans revolving around them killing their envoys and hunting the Forsaken down because they are undead.

That aside, how does Sylvanas' supposed history of aggression translate to Alliance knowing she plans to use Azerite to attack them? And how comes they don't say anything about that?

"And the Alliance gets quest to kill Horde. Because the Azerite drops only from killed Goblins."

No. Alliance gets quest to obtain samples. It's hardly Alliance's fault that Goblins attack instead of offering to share/sell/barter some samples. If there had been a Goblin selling samples for 5g or even 500g, how many players would have done that instead of killing for it? Most, I expect (although there's always some players on both sides who just want to kill stuff lol). The fact that Goblins of all people, who are usually all about making a buck, would rather die fighting than sell a few rocks under the table... just proves they are up to something and the Alliance better find out what.

It's Alliance's fault they kill Goblins because the Goblins didn't want to hand over their property, which the Alliance was not entitled to. It's Alliance's fault they intruded in the Horde camp in the first place. The Goblins on the other hand were under no obligation to share/sell/barter anything to intruders and had every right to deal with foreign intrusion.

By your brilliant logic, if someone walks into your home and demands you hand over your valuables, it'd be hardly that person's fault if you defend yourself rather than share/sell/barter your belongings and they kill you in return. According to you, you'd be the aggressor and would totally deserve getting killed by that burglar. Especially since that'd totally prove that you were up to something. Perhaps your valuables consisted of 50 terabytes of child porn. And that possibility would totally vindicate the burglar.

And "what if there was a different version of this quest" is irrelevant to lore. There was no alternative version of the quest. As such Alliance killed Horde members in a Horde camp they intruded upon. The end.

"And Alliance didn't even know what Azerite was, let alone that Sylvanas was planning anything about the Alliance. They attacked just because the Horde was gathering large quantities of a substance unknown to them."

They know Sylvanas can't be trusted. We know Sylvanas can't be trusted. And no competent leader - including you if you were King of Stormwind - would fail to have spies keeping an eye on her.

And their prejudice isn't justification nor does it negate them attacking the Horde in their own camp.

[Deleted]

seriously? what a misguided response...
Claiming that the alliance is responsible for kul tiras actions in durotar is equivalent to claiming the horde is responsible for the blackrock orcs. And are you seriously comparing minor aggression to bombing cities?

Give me a horde character who has been given more motivation to fight the alliance than genn has been given to fight the horde then. Go on. its laughable that you attempt to downplay having your child killed and kingdom lost like its inconsequential, and again, no horde character has had that! thats what im talking about, the horde isnt given motivation like that, and when they do have it, blizzard forgets it or buries it. Forsaken could have attacked gilneas as vengeance for being cowards during the third war and not helping them against the scourge, but blizz ignore things like that because it makes the alliance look bad. and yeah he is victimized, blizz has victimized him and given him a boat load of motivation and justification for basically anything he does, they dont do this with horde characters, they lose nothing and do bad shit for trivial reasons.

WHOOOOOOOOSH!!!! its like everything i say just goes right over your head, im not asking for the horde to get along with the alliance, im not complaining that sylvanas is attacking the alliance, im not bothered that there is a war happening. NO. Im annoyed that blizz has spared no effort in explaining why the horde is doing any of this. Burning down a capital is 10/10 response, having some spies kill some shady workers is maybe a 3/10, all i argue is that if the horde is going up to 10, then we need a damn good reason to do it, like having the battle for the undercity happening first.

Let me make it clear, i WANT faction conflict, i just expect it to make sense for both sides to fight.

Because quite a bit of what you say makes no sense.

Kul Tiras was part of the Alliance in TFT. Only after Daelins Death did Kul Tiras leave the Alliance. So yes, the fucking Alliance crossed an ocean to follow and wage war on the Orcs (and on the way to Durotar, just attack the Darkspear, because they're trolls). But of course, the Horde should trust the Alliance. It isn't that Genn in Stormheim and Jainas Actions show, that the Highking, doesn't matter if it is Anduin or Varian, has no real control over these kind of subjects.

Genn is responsible for his own misery. No one forced him to leave the Alliance of Lordaeron and wall his Kingdom off from the rest of the world. No one forced him to deal with a Worgen invasion on his own. He alone was responsible for that. No one forced him to put himself into a position, in the middle of the battle, where Sylvanas can shoot at him freely. He could have stayed back. If he had, Liam would be still alive, because he did not have to rescue his father. But of course the enemy, in this case Sylvanas, is responsible for all of Genns misery, not he himself. No no.

If i'm the leader of a nation and position myself in battle in a way, where the enemy gets a good shot at killing me, that is my mistake and mine alone. If troops or a family member, in this case a son, die, because they want to rescue me, that is my fucking fault. Genn isn't a little crying, inexperienced sjw feminist, who can always cry that all other are always at fault. He is an old king, someone who is experienced in battle. He should never have been in the place he was, where Sylvanas could shoot and Liam had to sacrifice himself to save him. If he decides to put himself in such a position, he at least has the responsibility to be ready for an attack and to defend himself.

But most people draw a picture of Genn being the poor victim and that he couldn't have changed anything. WRONG. He could have changed EVERYTHING with sound behaviour and actions.

[Mehrunes]

seriously? what a misguided response...
Claiming that the alliance is responsible for kul tiras actions in durotar is equivalent to claiming the horde is responsible for the blackrock orcs. And are you seriously comparing minor aggression to bombing cities?

Who said anything about Kul Tiras actions in Durotar? Did Kul Tirans try to attack Orgrimmar? No, Northwatch forces did. Members of the Alliance. As such your comparison falls flat on its face. I'm sure they planned to attack Orgrimmar with flowers and kittens though.

Give me a horde character who has been given more motivation to fight the alliance than genn has been given to fight the horde then. Go on. its laughable that you attempt to downplay having your child killed and kingdom lost like its inconsequential, and again, no horde character has had that! thats what im talking about, the horde isnt given motivation like that, and when they do have it, blizzard forgets it or buries it. Forsaken could have attacked gilneas as vengeance for being cowards during the third war and not helping them against the scourge, but blizz ignore things like that because it makes the alliance look bad. and yeah he is victimized, blizz has victimized him and given him a boat load of motivation and justification for basically anything he does, they dont do this with horde characters, they lose nothing and do bad shit for trivial reasons.

I already did in what you just quoted. Genn robbed an entire race of its future in his quest of vengeance. But that's apparently nothing, because Alliance whitewashing is all the rage now. And Blizzard didn't ignore Gilneas and Third War. It's exactly what Garrosh used to motivate the Forsaken.

WHOOOOOOOOSH!!!! its like everything i say just goes right over your head, im not asking for the horde to get along with the alliance, im not complaining that sylvanas is attacking the alliance, im not bothered that there is a war happening. NO. Im annoyed that blizz has spared no effort in explaining why the horde is doing any of this. Burning down a capital is 10/10 response, having some spies kill some shady workers is maybe a 3/10, all i argue is that if the horde is going up to 10, then we need a damn good reason to do it, like having the battle for the undercity happening first.

Let me make it clear, i WANT faction conflict, i just expect it to make sense for both sides to fight.

Everything you say is patent Alliance sycophancy where you brush everything the Alliance has done - which includes them starting the previous faction war - under the carpet. And, once again, Genn fucked over an entire Horde race. The race the current Warchief of the Horde is leading. While the factions were at peace and focused on the Legion. Alas, for you it's maybe 4/10.

then come legion, with alliance and horde going full length to HELP each others, including risking their own lives, with only a minor skirmish of worgens vs forsaken and even that was shown to not have support of alliance or that Anduin even know about it in first place

That "minor skirmish" was an attack by people sent by the High King of the Alliance and the Warchief of the Horde with Horde army sailing from Orgrimmar. Minor indeed.

now i'm supposed to believe horde are ok to fight their best buddies few months ago, that sylvanas main goal and long-time dream (that was NEVER shown in game prior to bfa) was to attack stormwind, and after it became general knowledge that there are things way worse than ally x horde that we must unite against (void lords), we decide to fuck it let's just kill each others ?

The Horde isn't best buddies with the Alliance. That's the exact reason why some members of the factions had to work with Class organizations. And nothing has been said about attacking Stormwind being a long-time dream of Sylvanas.

Yeah, how dare each and every military unit isn't prepared for every single thing, instead of being specialized to do their jobs better. The Horde was supposed to offer air defense while the Alliance fought against the brunt of the demon invasion and Gul'dan.

Since when is Alliance's specialization not having ranged forces?

I'm not avoiding anything. You are. It's not about "reaching him", because we know Sylvanas can be quite fast if she wants to. If her intention was to get Vol'jin out of harm's way as fast as possible, doing it on horseback makes sense since is much faster and efficient than doing it on foot.

I mean, other people already proved to you with the cinematic the distance issue and you already conceded on that.

I don't get it. You're complaining that I'm not "spreading false information" about the ships? Somehow that's an issue to you?

No, my issue was that the only time you addressed the spaceships was when you tried to spread false information about them and when you got corrected on that you dropped the topic altogether, even though their existence is still crucial to the issue at hand.

It's irrelevant because just because they were only ones being outspoken about it, doesn't mean the others didn't agree with them. You said "only those two spoke about it", and to that I reply: "so what?"

Then prove this sentiment being common in the entire Alliance. Shouldn't be that hard. Yet you're still dancing around the issue.

"For good"? Those ships are basically useless against groups of those flying demons. See how well they fared against them in the opening cinematic, for example. Funny how you grovel against the cinematics for not showing the ships attacking the Horde... but now they're 'alright' because the Alliance gunship somehow clears the sky by shooting a small handful of times and felling... two flying demons? That somehow cleared the skies, alright.

Sure. It only killed all of them and Alliance wasn't harassed by flying demons even after the gunship lowered itself so that the ground troops could get onto it.

And when have I "groveled against cinematics for not showing the spaceships" when, one more time for you to get it, my argument about spaceships revolved around what they did before the cinematic. Do I need to repeat that a billion times more?

"Ohh... shiny light over the cliff! Let me stop fighting, and leave myself wide open to be slaughtered while I gaze at that shiny light..."

Who said anything about stopping fighting? Wasn't me. It'd be nice if you argued against what you're actually quoting and not the weak straw-men you have to resort to.

You don't need to stop fighting to see things. Especially when those things are major change in the ongoing fight. What, if the fight was on open field the Alliance would just not spot an incoming cavalry that arrived from hiding to flank them just because they were fighting? Once again your attempt to handwave things paints Alliance as militarily retarded. Is that really the way you want to go?

Said leader was badly hurt, in the arms of Sylvanas, who was sounding the retreat horn. Surely they'll not immediately retreat and instead go like, "but does Vol'jin really want a retreat? Let me hear from him, first."

What does that have to do with what you replied to there?

Are they? Watching the gameplay I see the ships appearing near the horizon, the beams practically horizontal. Considering there's a tall cliff between the Alliance and the horizon, I'd wager they'd need Superman's X-ray vision to see those ships.

And yet I could see them just fine. Pure magic, I say.

It's widely relevant because: a) it's easily within Sylvanas' character to do something like that, if she had a means she believed would ensure victory later; and, more importantly, b) all the Alliance was the Horde calmly retreating, as if just to leave the Alliance to their deaths.

Given how in that bit I responded to your failed attempt at being tongue-in-cheek in regards to Vol'jin, not Sylvanas great goalpost move you got here.

[Deleted]

cause your a newcomer

i remember the 10 mins corpse runs and corpse camps in ashenvale, desolace, strangle thorn... i will never forget

always remember, never forget! fking alliance. i've been backstabbed often enough by them back in the day, were you let them quest or keep farming and as soon as their in the advantage or done with their quest they try and kill you. and it gives me orgasmic pleasure when i stil manage to kill them <3 but nonetheless ill never forget the corpse runs and backstabbing