ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Cyranis]

and why is that ? maybe because you are well aware how shit your guild is and only way to keep people in is to hold they hostage about loot

this is a perfect change because it will instantly destroy all shitty toxic guidls and force greedy people to actually act social towards their raid members

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there wont be any - if world 2nd guild claims they are happy about this change it only proves that the only ones against it are toxic people

A lot of people seem to feel this way. This sentiment is exactly why I think that shit is going to hit the fan with guilds that try and enforce their own version of ML buggery. A good number of people only put up with this crap because it was the status quo, and things have changed.

[Toybox]

I've given up. The ill-informed constantly compare progress & the good of the whole for toxicity, while completely ignoring that faster progress gets more people more gear in the long run anyway.

Yes I'm aware there's a few bad guilds out there, and there has been going back to the very beginning, but they're fewer than ever before, and if you find yourself in a guild like that, just leave. But what you're fighting so vehemently for, at least at the mythic level, isn't really what's best for the guild as a whole, or even yourself. If you value short term item level gains over faster progress & bigger item level in the long run, then that's good by you, but please, stop calling any guild that values progression & wants to continue to maintain some level of loot control toxic. It's not like that at all for my guild, and it wasn't like that in my MoP/WoD guild, either.

[Lilija]

ML(as it currently works) allows guilds to assign gear where it will do the most good for the raid overall, rather than having to rely 100% on random chance. If nothing else, everything being equal in the game, they could choose to give the drops to the players who performed the best, and thus still get a slight advantage.

That's what people think is happening. But they don't really have a solid proof that it's what happening. The thing is that when it comes to the speed of progression gear is one of many factors. And not in every guild it has the same influence. Also not many people really know full theorycraft for every spec so it's hard to say it's always the most optimal. Tier sets were easy but everything else is not even given that stat weights are not a constant.

I think it's not a very fair argument to say "we lack the data", unless you meant to compare current ML to BfA Personal Loot? In which case I completely agree. We have no idea how Blizzard will tune the raids to account for PL, or alter the rate of drops and the amount of drops either.

I mean the mathematical data showing which kind of loot distribution gives the most optimal group performance. Not only the RNG is different in both systems (ML gives less loot and for random specs tho you can assign it, PL gives random loot to specific specs and tends to give more loot). We don't know the chances for drop implemented by Blizzard so there is no way to calculate that accurately. We also lack the data of drop distribution from enough raids to see how both of those systems distribute the loot in practice (this is something Blizzard has). Without those data you cannot say objectively which system is better for the more optimal gearing of a group. People assume it's ML because they feel in control. But there is no way to really check it.

[Deleted]

and why is that ? maybe because you are well aware how shit your guild is and only way to keep people in is to hold they hostage about loot

this is a perfect change because it will instantly destroy all shitty toxic guidls and force greedy people to actually act social towards their raid members

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there wont be any - if world 2nd guild claims they are happy about this change it only proves that the only ones against it are toxic people

Or maybe they're happy about it because they have enough weight behind them to not get screwed by it, and will still be able to enforce any practice they want to optimize their loot distribution.

The ones who're gonna get fucked is the guilds who will either choose to not bring trials to kills where loot still matters (and said trials are getting fucked too, incidentally) or won't be able to optimize their loot distribution, resulting in slower progress and even more difficulties maintaining a roster and a progress in the long run.

[kamuimac]

I've given up. The ill-informed constantly compare progress & the good of the whole for toxicity, while completely ignoring that faster progress gets more people more gear in the long run anyway.

Yes I'm aware there's a few bad guilds out there, and there has been going back to the very beginning, but they're fewer than ever before, and if you find yourself in a guild like that, just leave. But what you're fighting so vehemently for, at least at the mythic level, isn't really what's best for the guild as a whole, or even yourself. If you value short term item level gains over faster progress & bigger item level in the long run, then that's good by you, but please, stop calling any guild that values progression & wants to continue to maintain some level of loot control toxic. It's not like that at all for my guild, and it wasn't like that in my MoP/WoD guild, either.

maybe because most of guilds do not progress faster because of it

maybe because even though 90% of guilds even in hc blindly copy "loot council" they are still taking 300-400 wipes per each mythic boss and couldnt give less fucks if gearing up people with priority would save them 20-30 of them but at a cost of not getting upgrades for months .

"faster" progression would mean they kill boss in 50 wipes instead of 200 - but most of guilds which still dont have CE do not kill bosses in 50 wipes. so raiders in there literaly couldnt give less f....s about "faster" progression .

[Toybox]

maybe because most of guilds do not progress faster because of it

maybe because even though 90% of guilds even in hc blindly copy "loot council" they are still taking 300-400 wipes per each mythic boss and couldnt give less fucks if gearing up people with priority would save them 20-30 of them but at a cost of not getting upgrades for months .

"faster" progression would mean they kill boss in 50 wipes instead of 200 - but most of guilds which still dont have CE do not kill bosses in 50 wipes. so raiders in there literaly couldnt give less f....s about "faster" progression .

You put air quote around faster, while still agreeing it's faster - Just not fast enough for you It's okay, I understand. Me me me me me me me.

[Lilija]

You put air quote around faster, while still agreeing it's faster - Just not fast enough for you It's okay, I understand. Me me me me me me me.

But is it faster or we think it's faster? I guess we could all agree that at some point it is but no one really knows where the point is yet everyone acts as if it's always the case.

[Toybox]

But is it faster or we think it's faster? I guess we could all agree that at some point it is but no one really knows where the point is yet everyone acts as if it's always the case.

Giving loot to someone you know is going to be vital on the next boss (ranged DPS for Coven, your alt DK for Aggramar, immunities for Argus before the changes) is definitely going to help, no?

[SirCowdog]

bs - complete bs

most guilds are civilised to the point they either discuss like normal people on discord who wants what and who is passing what while clearing trash or simply go with /roll for pieces that can be traded.

the only ones against it are those who abuse the f....ck out of their raiders by making strange loot council debates on who to screw out of loot.

What you just described sounds like a middle-level guild playing mostly for fun. And you know what? That's perfectly good! I'm glad people can handle being able to trust each other and accept /roll or casual discussions of who wants what.

But what I was describing was a fairly hardcore guild where things are optimized at the raid level. It's not at all "complete bs" that some raids would want to do this. Nor is it motivated by wanting to "abuse the fuck out of their raiders". It's perfectly normal for an officer to be assigned the job of determining where drops will do the most good.

Look, lets meet halfway: I'll assume that not everyone who wants PL is a stupid noob casual trash-level player, and you assume that not everyone who wants to optimize their raid and put the group ahead of themselves is a piece of shit selfish dirtbag who's only in the game to rip people off.

Hows that? Can we agree to stop making blatant assumptions and throwing mud at each other so we can have a civil discussion? Or would you prefer to keep things salty and angry?

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That's what people think is happening. But they don't really have a solid proof that it's what happening. The thing is that when it comes to the speed of progression gear is one of many factors. And not in every guild it has the same influence. Also not many people really know full theorycraft for every spec so it's hard to say it's always the most optimal. Tier sets were easy but everything else is not even given that stat weights are not a constant.


I mean the mathematical data showing which kind of loot distribution gives the most optimal group performance. Not only the RNG is different in both systems (ML gives less loot and for random specs tho you can assign it, PL gives random loot to specific specs and tends to give more loot). We don't know the chances for drop implemented by Blizzard so there is no way to calculate that accurately. We also lack the data of drop distribution from enough raids to see how both of those systems distribute the loot in practice (this is something Blizzard has). Without those data you cannot say objectively which system is better for the more optimal gearing of a group. People assume it's ML because they feel in control. But there is no way to really check it.

Hmm....I see the point you're making, but I think you might be underestimating the lengths people will go to determine optimal paths. Some of the higher-end raiders are real math-wizards with A LOT of data to work with.

But ultimately I think it comes down to what you said near the end of the quote: "People assume it's ML because they feel in control." That's not an inconsequential thing. Part of what makes videogames enjoyable is feeling somewhat in control. Especially a fantasy game which involves heroic badassery. By taking that away it hurts that feeling somewhat. It makes players feel less powerful.

The counter-argument is, of course, that not getting loot, or having to give up loot, DEFINITELY doesn't feel powerful either. But that just goes back to my stance about it feeling good to give something up in order to help your team get ahead. And that's also something that will be mostly missing from PL. You won't really be giving anything up, because in order to do so you MUST already have something better.

But I think you're right. It mostly comes down to a matter of perception. And sadly I think that Blizzard is going to push this change through, regardless of what some people want. Exactly like they did with flight. And it's likely going to cost them. Some people are inevitably going to treat this as a breaking point. But we'll just have to wait and see.

[Toybox]

But I think you're right. It mostly comes down to a matter of perception. And sadly I think that Blizzard is going to push this change through, regardless of what some people want. Exactly like they did with flight. And it's likely going to cost them. Some people are inevitably going to treat this as a breaking point. But we'll just have to wait and see.

I'm glad that you & Lilija are here to make this a somewhat readable thread with intelligent debate going back & forth. You both make good points, but I can't really see this being anything noticeable at all, at least on Blizzard's end. Anyone raiding below mythic isn't going to be hampered by this change at all, and those that enjoy mythic content are unlikely to quit because of something like this. Even in my guild, where the change is pretty much universally hated, there's no talks of quitting because of it... That's more down to the GCD changes & class design.

Comparing it to flying is a tad too far. Flying affects the casuals & hardcore players alike - The majority. Raiding at a high level is a super niche thing, so annoying a small percentage of that already <1% to the point of quitting isn't going to be that much of an issue at all.

FWIW, I still think ML being active in mythic difficulty only is the way to go.

[Deleted]

I'm glad that you & Lilija are here to make this a somewhat readable thread with intelligent debate going back & forth. You both make good points, but I can't really see this being anything noticeable at all, at least on Blizzard's end. Anyone raiding below mythic isn't going to be hampered by this change at all, and those that enjoy mythic content are unlikely to quit because of something like this. Even in my guild, where the change is pretty much universally hated, there's no talks of quitting because of it... That's more down to the GCD changes & class design.

Comparing it to flying is a tad too far. Flying affects the casuals & hardcore players alike - The majority. Raiding at a high level is a super niche thing, so annoying a small percentage of that already <1% to the point of quitting isn't going to be that much of an issue at all.

FWIW, I still think ML being active in mythic difficulty only is the way to go.

I can see a lot of groups being hampered by this, and not only mythic groups.

For example, in my group of players we quickly clear HC before going and clearing like the first half of mythic bosses over the course of a tier, and we have a good third of bad players that we take with us as much as possible so they can do the content with friends instead of slogging through the pug world, and we use ML so we can give gear to the players who actually kill the bosses.

The "baddies" know this works like this, and they'd rather do this than having to pug the content, and we're happy to take them with us since it speeds up the gearing of the better players.

Without ML, we're gonna have to wait a bit more time before taking them with us, or take a real hit to our raid progress "speed". I'm pretty confident our model isn't something nobody else does, and we're not gonna be the only ones to get fucked by this change. I'm all for making PL the default behavior, or restricting even more drastically the conditions as to how you can use ML, but I'm 100% against removing the ML option altogether.

[Toybox]

I can see a lot of groups being hampered by this, and not only mythic groups.

For example, in my group of players we quickly clear HC before going and clearing like the first half of mythic bosses over the course of a tier, and we have a good third of bad players that we take with us as much as possible so they can do the content with friends instead of slogging through the pug world, and we use ML so we can give gear to the players who actually kill the bosses.

The "baddies" know this works like this, and they'd rather do this than having to pug the content, and we're happy to take them with us since it speeds up the gearing of the better players.

Without ML, we're gonna have to wait a bit more time before taking them with us, or take a real hit to our raid progress "speed". I'm pretty confident our model isn't something nobody else does, and we're not gonna be the only ones to get fucked by this change. I'm all for making PL the default behavior, or restricting even more drastically the conditions as to how you can use ML, but I'm 100% against removing the ML option altogether.

That's an entirely fair view. Earlier in Legion I ran a very casual heroic guild as a side project, and despite some raiders being vastly less skilled than others, we continued to run personal loot just to avoid any issues. If we had been looking to step into mythic then it master loot would've been vital, so I see where you're coming from.

[kamuimac]

I can see a lot of groups being hampered by this, and not only mythic groups.

For example, in my group of players we quickly clear HC before going and clearing like the first half of mythic bosses over the course of a tier, and we have a good third of bad players that we take with us as much as possible so they can do the content with friends instead of slogging through the pug world, and we use ML so we can give gear to the players who actually kill the bosses.

The "baddies" know this works like this, and they'd rather do this than having to pug the content, and we're happy to take them with us since it speeds up the gearing of the better players.

Without ML, we're gonna have to wait a bit more time before taking them with us, or take a real hit to our raid progress "speed". I'm pretty confident our model isn't something nobody else does, and we're not gonna be the only ones to get fucked by this change. I'm all for making PL the default behavior, or restricting even more drastically the conditions as to how you can use ML, but I'm 100% against removing the ML option altogether.

thing is you do realise is that your post describe pure abuse that is happening in your guild - you are not taking them in there because you like them , you do not take them in because its guild activity - you take them purerly because they gurantee you more drops

this is toxicity in its purest form - and the reason why people stay away from guilds and game.

[Toybox]

thing is you do realise is that your post describe pure abuse that is happening in your guild - you are not taking them in there because you like them , you do not take them in because its guild activity - you take them purerly because they gurantee you more drops

this is toxicity in its purest form - and the reason why people stay away from guilds and game.

I can't speak for Captn's guild exactly, but what I'm seeing is.

A) The people who're bad wouldn't be killing those bosses without the good players. They'd not even get a chance to bonus roll on loot because they'd be unable to clear the content.
B) They still get a chance to bonus roll, and will still get loot that the progress-minded players don't need.
C) They still get to see the raid, enjoy the social element, play with friends, etc.

If you think it's better that they don't raid at all than raid knowing that gear is going to go to progression players as a priority, then I don't know what to say.

[Deleted]

thing is you do realise is that your post describe pure abuse that is happening in your guild - you are not taking them in there because you like them , you do not take them in because its guild activity - you take them purerly because they gurantee you more drops

this is toxicity in its purest form - and the reason why people stay away from guilds and game.

You just didn't read what I wrote.

We take them with us because they're our friends. ML allows us to take them with us without losing too much progress speed overall.
If we lose ML, we'll probably have to wait a few weeks to be able to play with them without it causing too much friction between them and the better players, especially on some of the harder content.

It's not toxic, they know they're not getting loot during the first runs they come with us, the same way they know they can't contribute to us actually killing new bosses with their gameplay. To give you a more precise picture, we have 3 casters (2 locks, 1 mage) who get regularly outdps'd by the tanks in the roster at the start of tiers on patcwerk fights, when they have comparable ilvls.

Still, we enjoy playing with them when we can, and being able to funnel their loots to ensure the raid group as a whole can get to the point when we can carry everyone through AotC faster is a way they get to contribute to the guild PvE efforts.

We've been playing with them since Sunwell, and they've always been shit. We're not taking them only for their loots, or we'd have stopped playing with them a fucking long time ago.

[SirCowdog]

I'm glad that you & Lilija are here to make this a somewhat readable thread with intelligent debate going back & forth.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

You both make good points, but I can't really see this being anything noticeable at all, at least on Blizzard's end. Anyone raiding below mythic isn't going to be hampered by this change at all, and those that enjoy mythic content are unlikely to quit because of something like this. Even in my guild, where the change is pretty much universally hated, there's no talks of quitting because of it... That's more down to the GCD changes & class design.

There's a certain amount of people that aren't going to quit WoW short of a catastrophic change in fundamental gameplay. They're too invested. No matter how many minor changes or losses of player agency, they won't cut their losses as long as they can quest, get loot, and maybe raid or dungeon every now and then. For them, logging into WoW is a habit, like many people check their phones, or how people used to read the newspaper every morning.

But some amount of people are going to see the loot change combined with losing artifact abilities and more pruning. No new class or profession. The GCD change....or whatever else, and finally just be sick enough of Blizzard's shennanigans to take a break. And maybe they won't come back. There are A LOT of really good games available right now.

Comparing it to flying is a tad too far. Flying affects the casuals & hardcore players alike - The majority. Raiding at a high level is a super niche thing, so annoying a small percentage of that already <1% to the point of quitting isn't going to be that much of an issue at all.

FWIW, I still think ML being active in mythic difficulty only is the way to go.

Loot effects everyone across the board. Trading in LFR, PUGs, high end guilds, etc. It's all impossible now in most cases until you don't need it. Think about that for a second. Just like flight, you only get the ability to actually determine for yourself what to do when it no longer matters.

Thinking of this in terms of population is a mistake, IMO. Even if you never used the option of ML, it was still there. Some people never play a particular class, but does that mean it should be removed? Monks are STILL the lowest population in the entire game, getting down around 5-6% of the total population(at least as far as we can tell). Let's remove it, and it'll be ok, right? The majority doesn't use it.

Do you see why that's a bad justification?

Personally, I think ML is kind of bad. It gives too much power to a single person, and thus is too easy to abuse. But PL without any other option is just the opposite end of the spectrum, and just as bad. What we need is something in between. What we also need is for people to recognize that however much they HATE ML(for whatever reason), PL isn't going to magically solve all their problems, and that people pointing that out aren't their enemy.

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thing is you do realise is that your post describe pure abuse that is happening in your guild - you are not taking them in there because you like them , you do not take them in because its guild activity - you take them purerly because they gurantee you more drops

this is toxicity in its purest form - and the reason why people stay away from guilds and game.

This post right here is the epitome of blind, unthinking hatred for something a person doesn't understand.

@CaptnTorpedo literally just described a first hand account where EVERYONE involved was happy, accepting, and enjoying themselves without abusing ML. And yet somehow you viewed it as toxic??? I don't think you actually understand what that word means in this context.

No one is being lied to, tricked, deceived, or abused. Everyone involved knows what they're getting into, accepts it and...wait for it....

...HAS FUN DOING IT.

In fact, by trying to paint them as the badguys here, YOU are the one being toxic. :/

So.....

[lappee]

and why is that ? maybe because you are well aware how shit your guild is and only way to keep people in is to hold they hostage about loot

this is a perfect change because it will instantly destroy all shitty toxic guidls and force greedy people to actually act social towards their raid members

Because there is no benefit for the guild, simple as that.

The change won't destroy any of the few toxic guilds and likely will just increase the amount of toxicity due to the need of increased socializing.

there wont be any - if world 2nd guild claims they are happy about this change it only proves that the only ones against it are toxic people

One guy from #2 guild is happy. What you're saying is that ~all the rest of top guilds are full of toxic people.

You really should read through the topic (and in case you did, actually understand whats being said) before you comment shit like this

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thing is you do realise is that your post describe pure abuse that is happening in your guild - you are not taking them in there because you like them , you do not take them in because its guild activity - you take them purerly because they gurantee you more drops

this is toxicity in its purest form - and the reason why people stay away from guilds and game.

Its a trade, his guild gets loot while those friends/randoms get to use coins and get the achievements needed for joining pugs. If those people didn't want to be there they wouldn't, they knew well ahead whats to come and they wanted to be there rather than being somewhere else.

The difference with PL is that neither the guild nor the friends/randoms get what they want. Its nothing but loss to all parties.

[Deleted]

thing is you do realise is that your post describe pure abuse that is happening in your guild - you are not taking them in there because you like them , you do not take them in because its guild activity - you take them purerly because they gurantee you more drops

this is toxicity in its purest form - and the reason why people stay away from guilds and game.

The most appropriate reply to this has already been given:

This post right here is the epitome of blind, unthinking hatred for something a person doesn't understand.

@CaptnTorpedo literally just described a first hand account where EVERYONE involved was happy, accepting, and enjoying themselves without abusing ML. And yet somehow you viewed it as toxic??? I don't think you actually understand what that word means in this context.

No one is being lied to, tricked, deceived, or abused. Everyone involved knows what they're getting into, accepts it and...wait for it....

...HAS FUN DOING IT.

In fact, by trying to paint them as the badguys here, YOU are the one being toxic. :/

[Cyranis]

If we lose ML, we'll probably have to wait a few weeks to be able to play with them without it causing too much friction between them and the better players, especially on some of the harder content.

If you are all playing together and having a good time. Why should loot matter? Simple, because you've put progress in a video game ahead of having fun with your friends. You go on to say that if you have to choose. You'd choose loot and progress, period.

Why is this going to cause friction? Is it perhaps because in the end .. after you wipe away all the bs. It's all about the loot. You can try and paint it any color you like, but you just boiled it down for us.

Somewhere under the varnish of doing it out of the goodness of your heart, there is an underlying loot issue. And it would go to figure on the opposite side that the people you are carrying, under all the bs, resent you in some way for being used.

Sure sure, it might not be terribly prevalent in your guild, not near the surface at all. But there are a very large number of guilds out there.

You are straight up using them to your own ends. That is the simple truth, even if they are happy about it.

Either way, this is not behavior desired by blizzard. Whether it worked for you or not.

[Gen4Glock21]

This change was made to slow the Mythic raid teams who try to clear the content as quickly as possible, no other reason. I also do not think a large majority of the players were calling for this. I do not believe in blaming the WoW forum community either, the blame is squarely on Blizzard. Just my opinion.