Nobody expects the Draeneic Inquisition!! (Mag'har scenario spoilers)

[Dellis0991]

yeah... i didn't read the text on the link when i posted. I have now.

It's strange that they are showing Yrel as the main villain.
But the rally cries of the Draenei don't seem evil... just zealous.

Alliance might get a different point of view when they meet Yrel?

The strange thing is Yrel's forces killing Durotan. That's unexpected.
Durotan could have been the neutral mediator between Yrel and Grommash's forces.
Instead he gets killed in battle. That death might have more meaning that is might seem.
Could it have been an "inside job" to strengthen the hatred between the two sides?
Or a zealous lightbound Orc going rogue without following draenei orders?

Many possibilities. Only Blizzard knows what they truly have planned for AU Draenor.

Too much of something is a bad thing....too much void and you running around with tentacles talking 10,000 words a minute, too much light you get homicidal zealots like the scarlet crusade, beings like X'era who tried to force light on to Illidan and now this, without the balance of void and light alt dreanor has become a living hell....its a warning for us on main Azeroth...we can only trust us and maybe Elune.

[Psychotrip]

Fire burns, water drowns, the shadow/Void overexposes to possibilities that may drive you mad. The light, as an element, needs a downside to stand next to these others.

But the downside doesn't need to be a moral one. The Light could be considered "weak", too pacifistic, unwilling to "get things done". You don't need to put the Light on the same moral plane as the maddening, torturous, enslaving whispers of the Void.

Also, I edited the post you're responding to after you quoted it. I'm actually enjoying this discussion, so I'm curious what you think about the rest of this. In short, I just think there are better ways to employ moral relativity within WoW's lore without flat out making the Light just as "evil" as the Shadow.

Anyway, here's what I said in full:

This is just so generic and trope-ish to me though. That's the problem I'm having with it. The only thing more annoying than generic "good vs. evil" is the opposite extreme, where everything's neutral and nothing matters.

Ignore the torture, slavery, and madness of the void, guys! It gives you "freedom"! We're just brooding and misunderstood, just like you! Aren't we cool?

Ignore everything A'dal and the Sha'tar stood for. Ignore everything we saw in MU Shattrath! The Light can be just as evil as the void! We're totally restrictive and intolerant of anyone different from us! Promise! Ignore the demon getting drunk in Shattrath, all the warlocks and shadow priests we've worked with, the Auchenai, our tolerance of the orc's religion for over 200 years, and anything else that portrays us as a pretty chill and tolerant force in the world. We're totally authoratative and despotic. We're totally gonna force our rules on you, just like your parents!

This is exactly what a 13 year old writes when he first discovers the idea of moral relativity.

You know what would've been a cooler use of moral relativity? For me anyway:

-If the Alliance had a bit of an edge to it. Turn the night elves back into the savage amazonian badasses of WCIII. Give us an other Garithos.

-If The Blood Elves never stopped dabbling in fel. If they continued down their dark path without going full cartoonish evil or being "redeemed". Purifying the sunwell and making the blood knights goody two shoes was an awful decision in my opinion.

-If arcane magic went back to being a chaotic force from the nether instead of a manifestation of "order". If necromancy was a school of arcane again, and if fel went back to being arcane in its pure, unrestricted form.

-Garrosh never should've gone full evil in MoP. The Horde was getting a bit dark and fascist, and this could've been cool if they balanced it better. We should've gotten Stonetalon Garrosh. Not "kill my own soldiers" Sylvanas.

-If they really pushed the idea of arcane / fel magic addiction again. Dalaran's reckless use of magic got so bad that demons were pouring in from the holes in reality they created. Instead of toning it down, they decided to create the Guardians to clean up their messes for them. The arcane is like a drug for intellectuals. Explore this!

-Go back to the 4 laws of arcane magic. It's powerful, addictive, corrupting, and attracts demons.

There are so many ways to bring moral relativism back to WoW without pushing this "Both sides bro!" mentality.

[Aucald]

Honestly, I am much less interested in Yrel and her potential change but rather in a new approach of exploration of the nature of the Light. Showing the ugly, totalitarian side of the Light that has no tolerance towards those who are not part of it. The Void offers freedom, and countless horrible things erupt from that boundless freedom. The Light offers some sort of a prison.

I've personally always found the Naaru to be suspect, ever since TBC there's been something that sat oddly about them and their apparent beneficence - it was an amorphous feeling, but it seems now that certain Naaru are showing their true colors as zealots and fanatics of the Light. I am interested in Yrel's development given that she was supposed to be a keystone character of WoD and proved to be, well, less than important to the overall story as it was related. With this new story for AU Draenor I am also wondering if we haven't seen the last of the world (for better or worse, as it were).

[Dellis0991]

Posting this again...Xal has been dropping hints all legion.

Xal'atath whispers: Do the naaru speak of the eternal conflict? That the entire history of your world is but a fraction of the time that has passed? Of those that came before the draenei? No? <short chuckle> (in Netherlight Temple)

Now at point we better hope we can save our titan because it seem we are going to be staring down the barrels of 2 guns.....

[Life-Binder]

Honestly, I am much less interested in Yrel and her potential change but rather in a new approach of exploration of the nature of the Light.

^ this

the AU shit doesnt matter here, whats important is the (troubling) implications for the Light side/Light itself in WC-verse

[RangerDaz]

Too much of something is a bad thing....too much void and you running around with tentacles talking 10,000 words a minute, too much light you get homicidal zealots like the scarlet crusade, beings like X'era who tried to force light on to Illidan and now this, without the balance of void and light alt dreanor has become a living hell....its a warning for us on main Azeroth...we can only trust us and maybe Elune.

Fanatism never was a good think in any case.
However i just think there is something more hidden or some dark secret we don't know about beyond the Draenei becoming obssessed with their mission to spread their light teachings and faith.

[Dellis0991]

Fanatism never was a good think in any case.
However i just think there is something more hidden or some dark secret we don't know about beyond the Draenei becoming obssessed with their mission to spread their light teachings and faith.

I'll say it wasn't just obsession but the absent of balance, with no void present on Dreanor the light's influences grew out of control. We know that void can whisper influences but what of the light? What of the Scarlet crusade here on Azeroth?

[Nathreim]

Its just terrible writing I got banned in the official forums for pointing this out btw. Apparently saying the writing is terrible and blizz needs to do something about it is harassment of the writing team.

[KrakHed]

I'll say it wasn't just obsession but the absent of balance, with no void present on Dreanor the light's influences grew out of control. We know that void can whisper influences but what of the light? What of the Scarlet crusade here on Azeroth?

It's not just the Scarlet Crusade. This has long been a trend among Light worshipers, and it's odd that no one has realized that they've had villains in ever expansion.

In Vanilla we had the Scarlet Crusade with their mad zealotry and ideals of purity, in TBC we had Blood Knights showing us how other perspectives worked just fine, in WoTLK we had Scarlets once more, Cata had some more Scarlets and Twilight Light-Wielders as well, MoP revamped Scarlet dungeons once more, WoD had the Adherents of Rukhmar whose formerly benign practices had mutated into a cancer upon their society that destroyed their former civilization thousands of years ago and continued to drag them down with its obsession with purity and control, and Legion had Scarlet remnants, Odyn being a huge Light-wielding dick, and Xe'ra justifying each and every single one of Illidan's atrocities so long as they were in the name of the "Greater Good" and decided to force him to be her champion because that's just how things had to be.

Y'rel is next in line. Because the Light's always been a villain in every expansion.

[RangerDaz]

I'll say it wasn't just obsession but the absent of balance, with no void present on Dreanor the light's influences grew out of control. We know that void can whisper influences but what of the light? What of the Scarlet crusade here on Azeroth?

Well, the silver hand and the argent crusade were good factions, with no fanatics. They were really kind and helpful to all who needed. They didn't require void energies to be good or mentally stable, so i don't think that being devoted to the light can this alone turn people crazy. The scarlet crusade became fanatics because the leadership changed, aka a dreadlord became their leader, and they started being brainwashed and becoming fanatic zealots that only accepted the teachings of their leadership.

[Korsha]

It's so clear what happened!

While Draenei and Mag'har were routing the last pockets of Legion activity from Draenor, Yrel was killed and replaced by a dreadlord!

Lightbound = AU Scarlet Crusade.

[frogger237]

because a villain? good and evil are points of view! turalyon would surely be more than happy to help the lightbound

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AU Xera could be the leader of the lightbound, I'm sure turalyon and the LG draenei would be more than happy to be under the guidance of her

You do realize that these lightbound sound brainwashed while Lothraxion and Turalyon were able to disagree with Xe'ra right? Xe'ra kept things from them.

Turalyon may still be a paladin but he as already seen that the light isn't perfect and has his people and family to fight for. He isn't going to just join space nazis because they have the same color scheme.

[matrix123mko]

To quote myself from another thread:
I don't think it means all Naaru are evil. They definitely represent Good and Order. But some seem way more on the Good side, and others way more on the Order side.
Like, A'dal did not come to Outland to dominate it for the Light. And his crew is probably on the good side. M'uru more than likely.
But then there's Naaru like Xe'ra. Who seem very Order-aligned. Not afraid to indoctrinate, dominate, forcefully convert and force destiny to get her way. And very intolerant of those that do not fit her mold. The kind of Naaru that would definitely button-mash the Re-originate button on Azeroth if she could, and think not a second on the lives lost.
I wonder which Naaru are behind the Lightbound. Is it K'ara? AU Xe'ra? Or someone like her.

Xe'ra isn't evil. It's your headcannon to make evil naaru. Next time you will try to tell me there are good old gods.

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It's so clear what happened!

While Draenei and Mag'har were routing the last pockets of Legion activity from Draenor, Yrel was killed and replaced by a dreadlord!

Lightbound = AU Scarlet Crusade.

It's the most logical choice.

[Theoris]

AU garrosh is with the draenei worshiping the light :O

I was talking about the MU Garrosh.

[Psychotrip]

So what's the light even about anymore at this point? Was it all just a big scheme to control everyone? I thought it was about being selfless, compassionate, and charitable. Aside from the Scarlet Crusade, who twisted the light to suit their agenda, the light itself always seemed welcoming and mostly peaceful. The Draenei spent 200 years tolerating the orc's religion. Why change now?

Since when does the void "stand for freedom"? Have we just forgotten the black empire? The way the void tries to mindslave everything? I'm so tired of this watering down of the world. It's like everything that used to be "good or bad" is now totally neutral, and everything that used to be morally gray has had its edge taken away (blood elves, arcane magic, etc).

I love moral relativism, but there are ways to introduce this to WoW without making everything equally shitty in their own special ways.

Here's a few examples of (imo) better ways to add some gray area to the world of warcraft:

-If the Alliance had a bit of an edge to it. Turn the night elves back into the savage amazonian badasses of WCIII. Give us an other Garithos.

-If The Blood Elves never stopped dabbling in fel. If they continued down their dark path without going full cartoonish evil or being "redeemed". Purifying the sunwell and making the blood knights goody two shoes was an awful decision in my opinion.

-If arcane magic went back to being a chaotic force from the nether instead of a manifestation of "order". If necromancy was a school of arcane again, and if fel went back to being arcane in its pure, unrestricted form.

-Garrosh never should've gone full evil in MoP. The Horde was getting a bit dark and fascist, and this could've been cool if they balanced it better. We should've gotten Stonetalon Garrosh. Not "kill my own soldiers" Sylvanas.

-If they really pushed the idea of arcane / fel magic addiction again. Dalaran's reckless use of magic got so bad that demons were pouring in from the holes in reality they created. Instead of toning it down, they decided to create the Guardians to clean up their messes for them. The arcane is like a drug for intellectuals. Explore this!

-Go back to the 4 laws of arcane magic. It's powerful, addictive, corrupting, and attracts demons.

There are so many ways to bring moral relativism back to WoW without pushing this "Both sides bro!" mentality.

[Theoris]

MU Garrosh is dead.. Encased in stone by Thrall.

I'm sure you can deduce I was talking about his spirit.

[Caerule]

Xe'ra isn't evil. It's your headcannon to make evil naaru. Next time you will try to tell me there are good old gods.

Well, evil is a matter of perspective. I mean, according to ISIS, we are the evil ones.

But if you blatantly go against free will to forcibly convert people into your personal crusade, you're definitely committing evil acts. Even if you deem them for a greater good. That kind of fanatical thinking seems to be inherent to the Naaru that are behind the Lightbound, who are willing to plunge a peaceful planet into war for the cause of converting it to the purity they envision. No matter what stands in their way.

[omeomorfismo]

lol apparently in this post only scarlet crusader were "evil" light workshipper, isnt like arakkoa went full zealotry or tyrion full suprematist in w2.

WoW has always had a little moral relativity to it. Orcs, warlocks, death knights, demon hunters, the scarlet crusade, the horde as a whole.

Either way, this is just going from one extreme to the other. Even the scourge was just misunderstood now. Give me a break.

but they werent misunderstood. they are like burning legion, their reasons (that we dont really need to know) imply that we had to die, so they are evil for us and we will fight them. in pratice it doesnt change nothing, simply they have a motivation for they acts.

[Omedon]

In this thread: Take a drink every time Psychotrip says moral relativism!

I'm generally teasing, but you are stumping pretty hard!

I don't think the light is a malevolent force, it's merely "a force," and like the fire that warms a home, or the water that makes the flowers grow it is easily palatable in a sense that generally we want order, we want rules as a society. Like the forest fire or the tsunami though, there is such a thing as too much. Part of order and control is controlling the narrative. Most of our exposure to the Void has been the extreme representation. The rejection of all order, the hope to destroy the narrative-controlled world as we know it. The unraveling of the order that we require to exist. The freedom at the core of that isn't itself an evil, but the extremity of the light's order can certainly be turned to evil as well.

It's all part of free will. We (the mortal citizens of Azeroth) are the wild card. Just ask Algalon.

[Psychotrip]

Well, evil is a matter of perspective. I mean, according to ISIS, we are the evil ones.

But if you blatantly go against free will to forcibly convert people into your personal crusade, you're definitely committing evil acts. Even if you deem them for a greater good. That kind of fanatical thinking seems to be inherent to the Naaru that are behind the Lightbound, who are willing to plunge a peaceful planet into war for the cause of converting it to the purity they envision. No matter what stands in their way.

This is what happens when we confuse moral relativism with moral nihilism. In the former, right and wrong are hard to define, leading to all sorts of interesting conflicts and debates. In the latter, right and wrong don't exist and everything is equally shitty. There's no point standing for anything because everything is corrupt. The best choice is to sit on the fence and never take a side.

Now, I actually 100% agree with what you said here:

But if you blatantly go against free will to forcibly convert people into your personal crusade, you're definitely committing evil acts. Even if you deem them for a greater good. That kind of fanatical thinking seems to be inherent to the Naaru that are behind the Lightbound, who are willing to plunge a peaceful planet into war for the cause of converting it to the purity they envision. No matter what stands in their way.

The issue is that the Light was never portrayed this way before. People manipulated the light in this way, like the crusade, but the light itself was like WoW's final bastion of purity and the closest thing we had to a net "good". I keep bringing up MU Shattath and the Sha'tar, but they're the best example of what the light was always about.

Sure, we didn't know about X'era back then, but Blizzard didn't need to give us this "twist" in the first place.

Their openness and tolerance could be their weakness. They don't need to be corrupt to be balanced. I've said it a million times: I love moral relativism. But it becomes less engaging for me when absolutely everything is morally gray.

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In this thread: Take a drink every time Psychotrip says moral relativism!

I'm generally teasing, but you are stumping pretty hard!

I don't think the light is a malevolent force, it's merely "a force," and like the fire that warms a home, or the water that makes the flowers grow it is easily palatable in a sense that generally we want order, we want rules as a society. Like the forest fire or the tsunami though, there is such a thing as too much. Part of order and control is controlling the narrative. Most of our exposure to the Void has been the extreme representation. The rejection of all order, the hope to destroy the narrative-controlled world as we know it. The unraveling of the order that we require to exist. The freedom at the core of that isn't itself an evil, but the extremity of the light's order can certainly be turned to evil as well.

It's all part of free will. We (the mortal citizens of Azeroth) are the wild card. Just ask Algalon.

Dude Algalon is one of the best examples of moral relativism (how drunk are you now?) in the history of WoW. I absolutely loved that, and I wish they went further with this idea of the titans being "lawful neutral" and "big picture" kind of people who see us all as ants in the grand scheme of things. That shit is badass.

The Blood Elves were another example of moral relativism. Doing whatever it takes to protect your people, no matter the cost. They never should have watered them down and "redeemed" them.

The light on the other hand doesn't need to be corrupt or even "neutral". It's okay for there to be one thing in the world of warcraft that's a net good.