ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[lappee]

If you are all playing together and having a good time. Why should loot matter? Simple, because you've put progress in a video game ahead of having fun with your friends. You go on to say that if you have to choose. You'd choose loot and progress, period.

Killing bosses is fun, they can't do that with their friends if they don't have the gear (aka if they can't carry). They do what they must to have fun with their friends since they're not as good.

Why is this going to cause friction? Is it perhaps because in the end .. after you wipe away all the bs. It's all about the loot. You can try and paint it any color you like, but you just boiled it down for us.

Its about killing the bosses, loot is just a tool to do so. Blizzard could implement a system that nerfs raids every week and remove all the gear, people would still raid but that would fuck up the rest of the game that is about character progression.

Somewhere under the varnish of doing it out of the goodness of your heart, there is an underlying loot issue. And it would go to figure on the opposite side that the people you are carrying, under all the bs, resent you in some way for being used

No doubt theres some resentment, probably around the same amount as there is resentment from raiders towards people being carried. After all they are using raiders too (which is why its called a trade).

Sure sure, it might not be terribly prevalent in your guild, not near the surface at all. But there are a very large number of guilds out there.

And its the same situation in majority of them, no1 can force random people to join their runs for the extra loot. Those people come because they want to.

You are straight up using them to your own ends. That is the simple truth, even if they are happy about it.

And they are using the raiders to their own ends. It really is the simple truth.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This change was made to slow the Mythic raid teams who try to clear the content as quickly as possible, no other reason. I also do not think a large majority of the players were calling for this. I do not believe in blaming the WoW forum community either, the blame is squarely on Blizzard. Just my opinion.

Of course the credit goes to Blizzard. It is an outstanding change that only increases the greater good of the game. But I respect your opinion.

[Cyranis]

They do what they must to have fun with their friends since they're not as good.

And blizzard will protect them, from you, and from themselves. This is not the way they want the game to play out.

[Deleted]

If you are all playing together and having a good time. Why should loot matter? Simple, because you've put progress in a video game ahead of having fun with your friends. You go on to say that if you have to choose. You'd choose loot and progress, period.

Why is this going to cause friction? Is it perhaps because in the end .. after you wipe away all the bs. It's all about the loot. You can try and paint it any color you like, but you just boiled it down for us.

Somewhere under the varnish of doing it out of the goodness of your heart, there is an underlying loot issue. And it would go to figure on the opposite side that the people you are carrying, under all the bs, resent you in some way for being used.

Sure sure, it might not be terribly prevalent in your guild, not near the surface at all. But there are a very large number of guilds out there.

You are straight up using them to your own ends. That is the simple truth, even if they are happy about it.

It's not going to cause friction because of the loot, it's gonna cause friction because of the BIG difference in levels between our top raiders (our 10 player core from the cata / mop days, who were clearing heroic content when it was relevant) and the friends we invite to come with us, who for the most part play since vanilla and were already bad back then, even by vanilla standards.

We're no longer aiming to clear cutting edge content, and in consequence we know we're not going to get geared to our teeth in any case, so the only thing we take into account when deciding who comes and who doesn't come for a raid night, is how much fun we'll be having. We're not choosing loots, or progress, we're choosing fun.

And bringing people who can't keep up with the harder encounters when the rest of the group isn't geared enough yet to pick up the slack isn't fun for anybody, be it the people doing their part or the people who're just doing stuff that's too hard for them and pulling the group back for it.

We're still gonna bring our friends in with PL. But on fewer bosses at a time. For example during ToS, we were bringing them for everything up to Avatar during the first week, mistress was a bitch but the fight was fun in hc so w/e, fun was had. We did this for like a month, then we brought a bit more every time for avatar, then KJ.

With PL, we would have done the same, but we would have taken more time getting to the point where we could add a few carries to the group, because we couldn't have given the extra loot to the people killing stuff. Or we could have "benched" people sooner, say mistress or maiden for ToS, to make sure we cleared the rest of the content faster with the core group, and achieved a similar rate of gearing.

For us the tradeoff during Legion to ensure similar raid gearing progression was either bring our friends in and use ML to guarantee us useful loot (as in loot going to the useful players), or use PL, not bring them and kill bosses faster. The first choice feels a LOT better to me (and the rest of my guild's leadership) than the alternative.

I'm not saying there are no guilds that are abusing the system, and just bringing bodies to get more loot. But that's not always the case, and removing ML WILL hurt a lot of guilds outside of the big bad mythic guilds.

[Cyranis]

I'm not saying there are no guilds that are abusing the system, and just bringing bodies to get more loot. But that's not always the case.

There are outliers, there always are. Changing the rules will hurt some guilds, an acceptable loss, but it will protect far more people than it will hurt.

[Deleted]

There are outliers, there always are. Changing the rules will hurt some guilds, an acceptable loss, but it will protect far more people than it will hurt.

That's just stupid to say. If there were so many people being abused by ML the forums would be filled with their tears for quite some time but they aren't. It is quite the opposite. Many guilds will be damaged by this and only a small percentage of people will be "saved" by it. Not to say those small percentages aren't worth thinking off, but not at the price of ML being canceled.

What about system that tracks if you have been in the guild you currently are with your account. If you weren't you will be the only one receiving PL for time X (set by Blizz) and the rest of the raid will continue with ML if they are doing that. It would occasionaly still be a loss of an item but that would be okayish imo. That way blizz could go with its forced PL for trials while not interfering with ML if the guild is using it. I mean for me it is far more of a concern to receive an item with higher ilvl that i simply will not use because of bad stats and it will therefore be a guaranteed loss for the raid and that is what i personaly absolutely hate about the forced PL. The raid will lose way more items over the progression span than with my amateurish proposal if the trial decides to leave the guild after 2 weeks where he got his forced PL.

[Cyranis]

That's just stupid to say. If there were so many people being abused by ML the forums would be filled with their tears for quite some time but they aren't. It is quite the opposite. Many guilds will be damaged by this and only a small percentage of people will be "saved" by it. Not to say those small percentages aren't worth thinking off, but not at the price of ML being canceled.

A super tiny fraction of the playerbase uses the forums. Psh, get off it. As to your end bit, your word against blizzards then, lemme know how that works out.

[Deleted]

There are outliers, there always are. Changing the rules will hurt some guilds, an acceptable loss, but it will protect far more people than it will hurt.

Who will it protect though ? ML is something that you can only use if you have at least 80(? not sure of the exact drop off, but around this mark)% of the group raid being of the same guild.

The only cases where ML in it's current form can be abused are guilds with bad leaderships / loot councils, and the answer is the same as for a lot of guild related problems : stop playing with shit guilds. Those shit guilds will find new ways to abuse the system (forcing people into a certain loot spec, forcing loot trades, ie the same way the top mythic guilds will abuse it, but with a different goal). Any system is gonna get abused.

I'm all for restricting ML even more if that's something Blizzard deems worth the eventual trouble it leads to, and if they deem that it's too abusable as it is now.

But for me, flat out removing it for the sake of removing it is gonna hurt more people than it will "protect".

[lappee]

And blizzard will protect them, from you, and from themselves. This is not the way they want the game to play out.

And thats just gonna cause them to not be able to play with their friends & have fun at the start of new raids, if you want to call that protection then go ahead but I fail to see any protection being involved. Its not good for the people playing the game and thus we have threads like this.

[Cyranis]

Who will it protect though ? ML is something that you can only use if you have at least 80(? not sure of the exact drop off, but around this mark)% of the group raid being of the same guild.

The only cases where ML in it's current form can be abused are guilds with bad leaderships / loot councils, and the answer is the same as for a lot of guild related problems : stop playing with shit guilds. Those shit guilds will find new ways to abuse the system (forcing people into a certain loot spec, forcing loot trades). Any system is gonna get abused.

I'm all for restricting ML even more if that's something Blizzard deems worth the eventual trouble it leads to, and if they deem that it's too abusable as it is now.

But for me, flat out removing it for the sake of removing it is gonna hurt more people than it will "protect".

You want people to stand up for themselves and show some backbone. Be their own hero, and do whats right. Despite crippling social anxiety and zero people skills. Asking a bit much aren't we? I almost spit my drink at the very notion.

Na, Id rather blizzard advocate.

[Deleted]

A super tiny fraction of the playerbase uses the forums. Psh, get off it. As to your end bit, your word against blizzards then, lemme know how that works out.

Blizzard isn't exactly known for being right at their own game you know? Not mentioning they will never tell us the real numbers anyway just to protect their idea of forced PL

[lummiuster]

You are, by all definition, what my guild and many others would call a "Loot Whore". If your only excitement in killing a raid boss is because of the loot that it drops and not defeating it as a guild, even though that is your choice as a loot whore, is sad.

Your guild is by all definition, what the world call "nerdy no-life". You over value the worth of an online community and give more importance to the virtual goal of that community than the fun of people in this community. Nobody cares about your toxic guild. Thats why even blizzard made that change.

[lappee]

There are outliers, there always are. Changing the rules will hurt some guilds, an acceptable loss, but it will protect far more people than it will hurt.

Show us your numbers on this claim.

[Cyranis]

Show us your numbers on this claim.

Blizzard's numbers. Watch the Q&A. He straight up says he knows it will hurt some guilds by taking away choice, but it's for the greater good. I didn't just make this crap up.

[lappee]

You want people to stand up for themselves and show some backbone. Be their own hero, and do whats right. Despite crippling social anxiety and zero people skills. Asking a bit much aren't we? I almost spit my drink at the very notion.

Na, Id rather blizzard advocate.

People with crippling social anxiety and zero people skills wouldn't even be in a guild in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard's numbers. Watch the Q&A. He straight up says he knows it will hurt some guilds by taking away choice, but it's for the greater good. I didn't just make this crap up.

So no numbers as I thought. It simply isn't for the greater good, there are way fewer people who are affected positively by this change than there are people who are affected negatively.

[Cyranis]

People with crippling social anxiety and zero people skills wouldn't even be in a guild in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -



So no numbers as I thought. It simply isn't for the greater good, there are way fewer people who are affected positively by this change than there are people who are affected negatively.

I linked it for you once in this thread about 10 pages ago. Go look at it. Right right, that might cause you cognitive dissonance. Better to just say .. oh no proof .. lemme just spew my bs which now must be true. psh

[Deleted]

Blizzard's numbers. Watch the Q&A. He straight up says he knows it will hurt some guilds by taking away choice, but it's for the greater good. I didn't just make this crap up.

There is not a single number, only the wording which is blury at best tbh. And he is not adressing the primary stat problem with higher ilvl at all. Currently plaing havoc. If i get a 985 belt with vers/haste for example i maybe would use it if i have a 950-960 in slot and even then it would only be a really small upgrade and i can not trade it to someone else who might desperately need that item. Lost item for the raid just because of PL. And everyone knows items procc 5-10 ilvl higher rather often and those proccs will be upgrades for most of the people who actually need them and they could be distributed fairly to the people who get the highest value out of them. With PL this will not be the case anymore. Most of the WF/TF items will go to waste and that only shows you should get rid of this stupid system at all to reduce the salt in everyone. If you are going to protect some ppl who get abused, protect the raid as a whole to decrease frustration there as well. This forced PL is a way broader theme than just "daddy blizz i am trial and did not get loot plx help"

[Deleted]

You want people to stand up for themselves and show some backbone. Be their own hero, and do whats right. Despite crippling social anxiety and zero people skills. Asking a bit much aren't we? I almost spit my drink at the very notion.

Na, Id rather blizzard advocate.

How is not doing something that's not fun / you don't want to do in wow something that requires you be Chad, hero of the people, public talker glorious ?
You just don't do what you don't want to do, period.

I can understand not wanting to deal with the social pressures or whatnot, but why be in a guild and participate in such a social activity as non-pug raiding in the first place if you don't want to deal with the social part of the game ?

It takes a lot more backbone to keep playing the game in an environment you don't like than to just not do it.

[lummiuster]

It isnt because any guild choosing pl can just use ml too without a punishment
(You know steroids arent really allowed in sports ye?)

+ Guilds with the mentality of using pl > ml will never be relevant to the race either way.

Your comment literally proves my point. Steroids are not allowed in sports, because it is unfair to those who don't use it and so it forces them to use steroids if they want to compete. For the same reason, ML should not be allowed.

I agree, guilds with the mentality of using PL over ML would not perform as much because in general it means they are not as focused on the same goal. This is why forced PL is great. We have been using ML forever because progression was our ultimate goal but we don't enjoy it.

[Deleted]

Your comment literally proves my point. Steroids are not allowed in sports, because it is unfair to those who don't use it and so it forces them to use steroids if they want to compete. For the same reason, ML should not be allowed.

I agree, guilds with the mentality of using PL over ML would not perform as much because in general it means they are not as focused on the same goal. This is why forced PL is great. We have been using ML forever because progression was our ultimate goal but we don't enjoy it.

If a guild is not going for the highest ranking and is using PL at their choice, why exactly is it a good thing to lower everyone else who is pushing for it to the lower levels?

That's like being Gold and league and being fine with it and suddenly GM can only get gold at max as well.