Nobody expects the Draeneic Inquisition!! (Mag'har scenario spoilers)

[Jastall]

That is the keyword in what you wrote and what makes your insistence on bringing MU Sha'tar irrelevant. Just because the Sha'tar are not like that does not mean the Light can't be like that. And there's no "just as evil" here.

It still feels off to make that point with the AU Draenei and Yrel. They had several characters in the MU that could have embodied that zealousness had Blizzard wished to go down this path. It would have also had more teeth as we would see the descent firsthand and be actually affected by it, rather than getting in Draenor, smashing us some crazy Draeneis, then leaving the spacegoats to stew on their failures. Last time we saw Yrel and co, they were mostly just defending themselves, and now suddenly it's gogo crusade time? The jarringness is as real as leaving Garrosh in late MoP and coming back to him being a pacifist.

Yes, it's been thirty years, but that's an excuse more than an explanation. Such drastic character changes should happen on screen, not be dropped in the lore and then be forgotten about the next day.

Also killing Durotan offscreen sucks since he was one of the only tolerable characters from WoD. And Eitrigg's dialog with Grommash is still pure idiocy.

[Psychotrip]

I just don't think that's something you can realistically say, if you know anything about the void's forces. Chaos is at the forefront of what they stand for.

Here's just a few quotes:

"Come, suffering... Enter, chaos!" -Erudax, the Duke Below

"Just as all life ends in death, all order must fall to chaos!" -Deathwing

"To his will all flesh succumbs. From his kingdom chaos comes!"
"Chaos, chaos! All things end!"
"Flesh and sinew; weak but proud. Dare they part the master's shroud? They stumble, fumble, groping blind; finding fate and chaos, intertwined."
"Brothers in Chaos, the Twilight has come!"
"All falls to chaos; all will be destroyed!" "Chaos, chaos!" "Your work here today changes nothing" "Chaos, chaos; all things end!"
"Chaos, madness; like a hug for your brain."
"Behold the chaos to come"
"Become one with chaos. Chaos!" -All Cho'Gall.

Even the crafting material from Cata dungeons were called Chaos Orbs.

The Old Gods are frequently described as creatures of chaos. And that is only natural. Because while the Legion may represent an active form of wild fiery chaos, the Old Gods represent their own brand. They are entropy made manifest. Consuming, draining, degrading, mutating, changing, and tearing away, until nothing solid and whole remains.

I think this is a similar scenario as the arcane and chaos. It clearly is associated with chaos, but Blizzard is insisting through Chronicle that chaos is a completely separate force. This is the folly of setting up an "opposing force" cosmology. It restricts things, muddies the waters, and reduces complex ideas to their most basic parts.

[KrakHed]

Yeah, that's my problem I guess.

Well, that's the thing. That's how it's always been, even in the RPG days. But separated Light and Shadow was primarily an inverted perspective on the exact same concept. There were no angels communicating a message back in those days, merely clerics discussing philosophy about the nature of existence. And even after the Naaru showed up, the basic concepts of the Light remained unchanged.

The idea of the Light was that all things were connected. All things were part of the greater whole of the Light and reality. That's what the Church believes, and still believes in all the novels. All are one in the Light. That's the core the rest is built from.

With the current Cult of Forgotten Shadow lore, the founder was shocked when they discovered that Void was equally omnipresent as the Light. Which, it itself, reflects the earlier RPG lore in which it was an alternate perspective on reality. It focused on reality being the joint product of everyone, vs. everyone being part of the greater reality.

In current lore, the Light is shown to favor one true path. This fits the idea of "we're all in this together, and we're all one in the Light".

The Void shows the inverse. It's screaming in an infinite number of voices pulling in contradictory directions for different reasons, all in different tones. All is not one in the Void. Rather, the Void, the One, is formed from all. Formed from the many. It's a disjointed disharmonious cacophony. The concept of "All is one" is inherently alien to these beings who perceive only a struggle against countless others.

The way they perceive things coming together to form reality is fundamentally inverted, and so their approach to it is fundamentally inverted as well. A Light worshiper would naturally come to the conclusion that what helps the greater whole helps himself as a part of it, and working for the greater good increases the net happiness. The ability to warp this mindset is entirely dependent upon how far you can warp someone's concept of "helping" and "good".

A Void-inclined fellow will not have the perspective to see it this way. He may have allies, but helping them is no good unless they will help him as well. So cooperation is possible, but there's no charity to it. It's a cold and calculated help, because the only one who truly matters is himself. He will keep his head down to avoid the wrath of someone with greater power, but will topple that greater power the first moment it's to his advantage. There's no inherent "freedom" here, but it is a perspective that doesn't bind you to anyone else except by the force they can exert. Of course, it's also a perspective that gives you no reason to hold back from enslaving others if you can.

It's only when you create ever increasingly more elaborate thought structures, philosophies, and other such things that you generate all sorts of twisted interpretations.

When Locus-Walker, Alleria, and the Void Elves wield Void without losing themselves to it, they aren't defying the nature of the Void and twisting it against itself to serve good. Dominating it isn't counter to the Void's nature. The struggle for and exertion of dominance, the whole tug of war, is built into its very nature. That's how the Void rolls. Eat or be eaten. Alleria's been doing a fantastic job eating so far, with Locus-Walkers help. Devouring power just as comes naturally to the Void. Maintaining a sense of self is all part of the strength that proves one worthy to master the Void rather than be mastered by it.

But the other voices will always be there waiting, and no ones defenses are perfect. The moment she shows weakness, the others will swarm. This is the paranoid perspective on reality of the Void.

- - - Updated - - -

I just don't think that's something you can realistically say, if you know anything about the void's forces. Chaos is at the forefront of what they stand for.

Ahem.

Iyyokuk the Lucid: Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind!

I believe Chaos is a related concept to what they are, but more a function of their perception of reality when contrasted with the Light's.

[Archibalde]

I love moral relativity, but I'm afraid this is taking us down the road to moral nihilism where everything is completely morally gray, equally shitty and corrupt, and there's no point believing in or fighting for anything. As others have stated, I may be jumping the gun there, and I admit that. I just dont have much faith in Blizzard anymore, I guess.

The light is beneficial, it has always been. But it has also always been usable as a weapon. Fanatics using it for their own ends is nothing new. The Scarlet Crusade is a good example. They believe what they're doing is the right thing, and the light doesn't oppose to their actions even though they are most definitely evil by definition, with the torture and all.

Those fanatics don't undo the good aspects of the light though. It doesn't take away its warmth or its restorative properties. It just doesn't make it immune to people who would abuse it. It's no different from, say, fire. You can use fire to light up your house, to cook your food, to make a camp but you can also use it to incinerate an enemy or burn a tree down. It doesn't make fire a shitty, corrupting gray moral area. It's good in the right hands, and bad in the wrong hands, as anything is.

[Dastreus]

Those orcs definitely deserve it, but this seems a little too crazy even for blizzard writing.

Agreed. From what WoD and MoP showed us, Orcs go all rampage crazy without even needing Fel. They are a savage race, with exception of the Frostwolf and perhaps Laughing Skull clans. But this? This is far out of the norm for Draenei philosophy. I get they are probably mad after the events, but wtf is this?

[Rhlor]

this seems like the laziest BS ever pulled off of Blizz asses. blue space goats and naaru going nazi? And Orcs falling to them? Not sure if I can stand this level of bad writing tbh.

the Nazis wanted to exterminate millions of people because they were racist. The Naaru do not want to kill anyone because of their race they want everyone to practice their religion and join in the light.they will kill who does not love light but that is regaligious fanaticism, not Nazism

[Psychotrip]

the Nazis wanted to exterminate millions of people because they were racist. The Naaru do not want to kill anyone because of their race they want everyone to practice their religion and join in the light.they will kill who does not love light but that is regaligious fanaticism, not Nazism

While his analogy was fatally flawed, I understand his point.

[therealbowser]

I hope we save him and bring him back with us. Imagine AU Garrosh, the first orc paladin. The salt alone would make it all worth it.

The irony is killing me! Make it happen, please!

- - - Updated - - -

So Lightforged Draeneis will get an allied race in the Lightbound later on. New kid Garrosh joins the Alliance with Lightbound Orcs and then new Garrosh will make an Alliance copy of Orgrimmar. Then in patch 8.3 we will have a new SoO, just the two factions swapped roles.

Where is my contract blizz, I'll sign it.

The lightforged draenei already exist. You can play one right now.

[Rhlor]

Ontop of what I said earlier, this just feels so contrived and forced.

Since when have naaru forced their religion on others? Until X’era they always seemed completely chill. They never tried pushing their beliefs on the orcs in the 200 years they were on draenor either. I mean, there’s a demon just hanging out at the bar at shattrath city. Void using arakkoa just hang out there, and dragons infused with energy from the nether roam freely as well.

Shattrath itself is a chaotic menagerie of different people with different beliefs. This just feels like clumsy writing for the sake of moral relativity.

Shades of grey are great, but that doesn’t mean everything should be the same shade of gray. When you make everything equally bad, then there’s nothing left to fight for or side with.

WoW has always had a little moral relativity to it. Orcs, warlocks, death knights, demon hunters, the scarlet crusade, the horde as a whole. I’m all for a bit more ethical complexity as well.

But this is just going from one extreme to the other. Even the scourge was just misunderstood now. Poor Arthas was just trying to unite the world and stop the void lords. Whose the real bad guy? Him? Or us?!?!?

Give me a break.

they needed allies to defeat the legion once the legion was defeated the naaru can carry out their own agenda.

The United States and the USSR were allies against the Nazis and that did not mean that they were going to be the best friends forever.

- - - Updated - - -

While his analogy was fatally flawed, I understand his point.

the analogy was incorrect because the naaru want to unite all races in light

[Paraka]

Agreed. From what WoD and MoP showed us, Orcs go all rampage crazy without even needing Fel. They are a savage race, with exception of the Frostwolf and perhaps Laughing Skull clans. But this? This is far out of the norm for Draenei philosophy. I get they are probably mad after the events, but wtf is this?

I mean, they also huffed the green googoo gas, too. This just made the pot a darker grey to a point it can no longer call the kettle black with righteous indignation.

[Psychotrip]

they needed allies to defeat the legion once the legion was defeated the naaru can carry out their own agenda.

The United States and the USSR were allies against the Nazis and that did not mean that they were going to be the best friends forever.

Yeah, but countries doing this is one thing. The supposed force of positivity and compassion doing this is a bit off-putting.

[therealbowser]

To quote myself from another thread:

Lightbound Draenei... Now there's a twist I certainly did not see coming! I mean, it was very likely we'd see more Naaru with loose morals, but to foreshadow it even more on AU Draenor, I did not expect. I guess this also means we're possibly seeing Yrel as villain in a future expansion. Naaru can travel the Nether, which connects to all stable timelines. These guys could definitely come here.

I don't think it means all Naaru are evil. They definitely represent Good and Order. But some seem way more on the Good side, and others way more on the Order side.
Like, A'dal did not come to Outland to dominate it for the Light. And his crew is probably on the good side. M'uru more than likely.
But then there's Naaru like Xe'ra. Who seem very Order-aligned. Not afraid to indoctrinate, dominate, forcefully convert and force destiny to get her way. And very intolerant of those that do not fit her mold. The kind of Naaru that would definitely button-mash the Re-originate button on Azeroth if she could, and think not a second on the lives lost.
I wonder which Naaru are behind the Lightbound. Is it K'ara? AU Xe'ra? Or someone like her.

I suppose it was inevitable that, now that we pushed the Legion off of the pedistal of dominance in the universe, the extremists previously focused on fighting them will now try to take that seat, to forge the universe into their image instead. I'm quite curious what will happen with the Light that is no longer the underdog, standing up for the little guy, but now gains in dominance. It is only natural that it has its own violent extremists in the wake of this endless war, that will not stop and settle for peace and balance, but will continue to push back against what isn't under their sway, and champion the cause of order and purity to extreme ends. Enemies of free will, even.

An interesting point, I want to add to this a bit.

In the case of Xe'ra, she was obsessed with what she felt was necessary. We don't know if there is any kind of power struggle among the Naaru, or if it was a special case. The Naaru largely see themselves as being indestructable, above mortals, and due to their incredible benevolence this is easy to overlook. They won't hesitate to do what they feel is right. Naaru are many things, but I wouldn't say they are open-minded.

But I digress. The Naaru in AU Draenor -- whom's name I now have forgotten -- has an interesting backstory. Very few Naaru have fallen into void corruption. This one not only fell into it, but witnessed firsthand what Ner'zhul would have done with that power. It's quite likely that that particular Naaru has a very biased view on both the orcs and has an unnatural fear of the void, and now that their primary antagonist is no longer a threat, they are quite likely to be very afraid of what the Mag'har are capable of, and are taking extreme measures to ensure the Void Lords never succeed now that the Titans are not around to safeguard the universe. In a sense, there is a kind of logic with their actions.

My question is, is this how all Naaru feel, or is this as I suspect it is, and simply a special case with this particular Naaru? I've always felt that the Light wasn't necessary benevolent, and it gives the potential for the Alliance to have a darker side. I would be very curious to see how this plays out... this is one of the few events in BfA that actually gives me a small amount of sympathy for the Horde. Or at least any of their specific races.

[Rhlor]

Yeah, but countries doing this is one thing. The supposed force of positivity and compassion doing this is a bit off-putting.

You have to see things from the lightbound point of view!
yes, it is a theocratic dictatorship but under the benevolent domination of the naaru draenor it will be a peaceful and prosperous place, the orcs damaged the ecosystem of Gorgrond and the lughtbound want to repair the damage, the orcs will live thousands of years they will never again hungry or get sick , they would live in a technologically advanced civilization

[Psychotrip]

You have to see things from the lightbound point of view!
yes, it is a theocratic dictatorship but under the benevolent domination of the naaru draenor it will be a peaceful and prosperous place, the orcs damaged the ecosystem of Gorgrond and the lughtbound want to repair the damage, the orcs will live thousands of years they will never again starve or get sick , they would live in a technologically advanced civilization

I feel like we're both assuming a lot of things in different directions. I'm assuming Blizzard will portray this group as oppressive murderous and "evil". It looks like you're assuming the opposite.

[Doffen]

The irony is killing me! Make it happen, please!

- - - Updated - - -



The lightforged draenei already exist. You can play one right now.

Lol. Yeah, I know, I got one. I was talking about the LightBOUND wich is the AU Draeneis. So the story would be that the Allied Race would get an Allied Race.

[Rhlor]

Hard to feel sorry for the Mag'har when they willingly committed genocide and engaged in one overwhelming tactical blunder after another. Also nice to see Blizz throwing the draenei under the bus to force faction conflict and whitewash the fact that the AU orcs behaved almost as badly as the Old Horde without the demon blood influencing their actions and were forgiven just because Grom paid some lip service to the adventurers in a cinematic.

What was wrong doing durotan to die at the hands of religious fanatics? Lantresor is also fighting against the Lightbound and he was the enemy of the iron horde. and geyarah she was not born in the time of WoD
the laughing skull and the shadowmoon exiles

[Dannihilate]

To quote myself from another thread:

Lightbound Draenei... Now there's a twist I certainly did not see coming! I mean, it was very likely we'd see more Naaru with loose morals, but to foreshadow it even more on AU Draenor, I did not expect. I guess this also means we're possibly seeing Yrel as villain in a future expansion. Naaru can travel the Nether, which connects to all stable timelines. These guys could definitely come here.

I don't think it means all Naaru are evil. They definitely represent Good and Order. But some seem way more on the Good side, and others way more on the Order side.
Like, A'dal did not come to Outland to dominate it for the Light. And his crew is probably on the good side. M'uru more than likely.
But then there's Naaru like Xe'ra. Who seem very Order-aligned. Not afraid to indoctrinate, dominate, forcefully convert and force destiny to get her way. And very intolerant of those that do not fit her mold. The kind of Naaru that would definitely button-mash the Re-originate button on Azeroth if she could, and think not a second on the lives lost.
I wonder which Naaru are behind the Lightbound. Is it K'ara? AU Xe'ra? Or someone like her.

I suppose it was inevitable that, now that we pushed the Legion off of the pedistal of dominance in the universe, the extremists previously focused on fighting them will now try to take that seat, to forge the universe into their image instead. I'm quite curious what will happen with the Light that is no longer the underdog, standing up for the little guy, but now gains in dominance. It is only natural that it has its own violent extremists in the wake of this endless war, that will not stop and settle for peace and balance, but will continue to push back against what isn't under their sway, and champion the cause of order and purity to extreme ends. Enemies of free will, even.

When I first read the Mag'har intro text I was incredibly annoyed at Blizz for slapping their "moral relativity" stamp on yet another area of WoW that didn't need it. But this post turned me around on the subject. I think this could be a very interesting direction to take the game's story, if done well, and it makes sense, or at least more sense than the context-less text did upon first reading it.

[Rhlor]

I feel like we're both assuming a lot of things in different directions. I'm assuming Blizzard will portray this group as oppressive murderous and "evil". It looks like you're assuming the opposite.

I assume that what the naaru want is to create a universal civilization like the one the draenei have.

that does not mean that in order to create that utopia the Naaru think that all those who oppose this are "evil" and must be destroyed.
Freedom vs. dictatorial utopia is not an out of the ordinary issue

- - - Updated - - -

When you get to the point where even Arthas and The Scourge are being portrayed as morally gray, you know you've fucked up.



.

yes, arthas wanted to create a giant army of undead so that nobody could destroy azeroth, but this was not to protect people !! Arthas wanted to kill everyone and turn them into zombies without a mind. arthas was looking to protect himself he wanted to reign forever

[Al Gorefiend]

I think this is a similar scenario as the arcane and chaos. It clearly is associated with chaos, but Blizzard is insisting through Chronicle that chaos is a completely separate force. This is the folly of setting up an "opposing force" cosmology. It restricts things, muddies the waters, and reduces complex ideas to their most basic parts.

Void does stand for chaos though, always kind of did. Think that's why Sargeras, originally a being of pure order, fought against it.

[Psychotrip]

Void does stand for chaos though, always kind of did. Think that's why Sargeras, originally a being of pure order, fought against it.

Arcane was always chaotic too. Look what happened to that. Ignore all the numerous cases of it being linked to fel and necromancy, about all the ways its corrupted things in the past. Ignore how demons were explicitly described as being infused with arcane energy, ignore Sargeras turning Illidan into a demon hunter with "arcane runes". Ignore Gul'dan teaching the orcs the "arcane arts". Ignore how Dalaran's reckless use of magic tore holes to the nether letting demons into Azeroth. Ignore how addictive the arcane apparently is (when Blizzard decides it is). Ignore how it created the ethereals. Ignore how Faralon was torn apart by "arcane storms".

Nope. Arcane the manifestation of "order" in our universe.

Chaos is apparently its own primordial force now, and Void is nowhere near it on the cosmic plane. They're not even next to each other. They're not even on opposite sides. It's stupid, but it's canon. Story of Chronicle in my opinion.