Nobody expects the Draeneic Inquisition!! (Mag'har scenario spoilers)

[Qualia]

Chaos is apparently its own primordial force now, and Void is nowhere near it on the cosmic plane. They're not even next to each other. They're not even on opposite sides. It's stupid, but it's canon. Story of Chronicle in my opinion.

Disorder being a primordial force on its own doesn't mean nothing else can have chaotic alignment (and the same applies to Order). One is a cosmic force, another is an alignment - they aren't the same thing. Moreover, as have been stated before, the placement on the cosmic chart in Chronicle doesn't mean much. Blizzard themselves told us *NOT* to read too much into it. The Chart was only meant to be a cool thing to show what the cosmic forces are and the groups associated with those forces, but nothing else. Whether things are on the opposite of each other or not doesn't mean they must have little to no connection (or the other way around) - again, as Blizzard said, stop reading too much into that chart and be disappointed because your interpretation doesn't match what they wanted to portray. "They're not even next to each other. They're not even on opposite sides" doesn't mean anything.

[ohwell]

I just don't think that's something you can realistically say, if you know anything about the void's forces. Chaos is at the forefront of what they stand for.

Here's just a few quotes:

"Come, suffering... Enter, chaos!" -Erudax, the Duke Below

"Just as all life ends in death, all order must fall to chaos!" -Deathwing

"To his will all flesh succumbs. From his kingdom chaos comes!"
"Chaos, chaos! All things end!"
"Flesh and sinew; weak but proud. Dare they part the master's shroud? They stumble, fumble, groping blind; finding fate and chaos, intertwined."
"Brothers in Chaos, the Twilight has come!"
"All falls to chaos; all will be destroyed!" "Chaos, chaos!" "Your work here today changes nothing" "Chaos, chaos; all things end!"
"Chaos, madness; like a hug for your brain."
"Behold the chaos to come"
"Become one with chaos. Chaos!" -All Cho'Gall.

Even the crafting material from Cata dungeons were called Chaos Orbs.

The Old Gods are frequently described as creatures of chaos. And that is only natural. Because while the Legion may represent an active form of wild fiery chaos, the Old Gods represent their own brand. They are entropy made manifest. Consuming, draining, degrading, mutating, changing, and tearing away, until nothing solid and whole remains.

Too bad the cosmology chart pretty much negates everything you just wrote. Shadow(the void), death, disorder[chaos](the burning legion), light(the naaru), life, and order(the titans) are all separate branches of the chart. The Legion is disorder which is chaos not the naaru nor the void/old gods.

Also stop using boss quotes as some sort of canonical source when 99% of them are just them trying to look cool or spout off. Deathwing said he was indominatible so I guess that means he's still alive right?

[Qualia]

Too bad the cosmology chart pretty much negates everything you just wrote. Shadow(the void), death, disorder[chaos](the burning legion), light(the naaru), life, and order(the titans) are all separate branches of the chart. The Legion is disorder which is chaos not the naaru nor the void/old gods.

This is quite quite an interesting coincidence since I've just addressed this same issue from another poster's post in another thread. To make things short: cosmic forces aren't alignments. There are those six cosmic forces in WoW as stated in Chronicle, but there are only three alignment: Order / Lawful, Disorder / Chaotic, and Neutral. Just because the cosmic force Void / Shadow aren't the same as the cosmic force Disorder, doesn't mean they can't have chaotic alignment. There are demons with Order / Lawful alignment, for example, just like there are arcane beings with Chaotic alignment.

Even Blizzard have told us not to read too much into the Chronicle Cosmic Chart as it was never meant to portray as much as people think it does. It was only meant to be a cool chart to show what the cosmic forces are, and which groups are normally associated with them, but nothing else. People try to read interpret the placement of the forces and attempt to figure out the possible relationships between them, but that has never been Blizzard's intention. You are right that those cosmic forces (Shadow, Death, Order, Disorder, Life and Light) are separated forces and was placed separately on the chart, but that's the extent of it. It doesn't mean that none of the groups / characters associated with one force can also carry the alignment / trait of another.

[therealbowser]

Lol. Yeah, I know, I got one. I was talking about the LightBOUND wich is the AU Draeneis. So the story would be that the Allied Race would get an Allied Race.

I'm assuming they are the same type of draenei. It seems like they would be, even if they have different motivations.

[Psychotrip]

Disorder being a primordial force on its own doesn't mean nothing else can have chaotic alignment (and the same applies to Order). One is a cosmic force, another is an alignment - they aren't the same thing. Moreover, as have been stated before, the placement on the cosmic chart in Chronicle doesn't mean much. Blizzard themselves told us *NOT* to read too much into it. The Chart was only meant to be a cool thing to show what the cosmic forces are and the groups associated with those forces, but nothing else. Whether things are on the opposite of each other or not doesn't mean they must have little to no connection (or the other way around) - again, as Blizzard said, stop reading too much into that chart and be disappointed because your interpretation doesn't match what they wanted to portray. "They're not even next to each other. They're not even on opposite sides" doesn't mean anything.

Valid. I still think it’s confusing for one force to explicitly be chaos (or disorder) and for non-associated forces to also be chaotic. How can order be chaotic? I get that I take the chart a little too seriously but even on its face I find it stupid. Telling me there’s a specific cosmic force for disorder, and then telling me that other forces can be disorderly too, even order, just muddies the waters. They shouldn’t have separated these forces in the first place if they didn’t want to actually portray them as separate.

[Qualia]

Valid. I still think it’s confusing for one force to explicitly be chaos (or disorder) and for non-associated forces to also be chaotic. How can order be chaotic? I get that I take the chart s little too seriously but even on its face I find it stupid. Telling me there’s a specific cosmic force for disorder, and then telling me that other forces can be disorderly too, even order, just muddies the waters. They shouldn’t have separated these forces in the first place if they didn’t want to actually portray them as separate.

I do agree that it's confusing. I just wanted to remind you (and people in general) that the Cosmic Chart wasn't meant to be read that deep into it. I'm sure it could have been fun trying to interpret the connections and relationships between the forces based on it, but Blizzard actually never meant to portray those (other than "Okay, those are opposing forces, let's put them on the opposite side"). So if you try to read too much, I expect you'd probably only end up confused or disappointed when you realize that there are plenty of things do not go according to those interpretation (such as, as you pointed out yourself before, some Arcane beings carry chaotic alignment). Blizzard just didn't put so much thoughts into that chart.

[ohwell]

This is quite quite an interesting coincidence since I've just addressed this same issue from another poster's post in another thread. To make things short: cosmic forces aren't alignments. There are those six cosmic forces in WoW as stated in Chronicle, but there are only three alignment: Order / Lawful, Disorder / Chaotic, and Neutral. Just because the cosmic force Void / Shadow aren't the same as the cosmic force Disorder, doesn't mean they can't have chaotic alignment. There are demons with Order / Lawful alignment, for example, just like there are arcane beings with Chaotic alignment.

Even Blizzard have told us not to read too much into the Chronicle Cosmic Chart as it was never meant to portray as much as people think it does. It was only meant to be a cool chart to show what the cosmic forces are, and which groups are normally associated with them, but nothing else. People try to read interpret the placement of the forces and attempt to figure out the possible relationships between them, but that has never been Blizzard's intention. You are right that those cosmic forces (Shadow, Death, Order, Disorder, Life and Light) are separated forces and was placed separately on the chart, but that's the extent of it. It doesn't mean that none of the groups / characters associated with one force can also carry the alignment / trait of another.

You're reading them as alignment instead of what they embody. Fel is the epitome of disorder in the wow universe and that's even explained in game. Nothing is more chaotic than fel, to include the void/shadow. The void consumes, fel pretty much erases. Fel leads to entropy essentially while nothing suggests the void does considering it is a manifestation. Void is an absence and fel is consumption.

[bufferunderrun]

Yeah, but countries doing this is one thing. The supposed force of positivity and compassion doing this is a bit off-putting.

that is just the error blizzard made with draenei both au and regular, they wrote them as sort of gandhi since their introduction now they are trying to rectify it and the result is the nuclear gandhi from civilization.

[Psychotrip]

that is just the error blizzard made with draenei both au and regular, they wrote them as sort of gandhi since their introduction now they are trying to rectify it and the result is the nuclear gandhi from civilization.

Because fuck nuance, am I right?

[matrix123mko]

Well, evil is a matter of perspective. I mean, according to ISIS, we are the evil ones.

But if you blatantly go against free will to forcibly convert people into your personal crusade, you're definitely committing evil acts. Even if you deem them for a greater good. That kind of fanatical thinking seems to be inherent to the Naaru that are behind the Lightbound, who are willing to plunge a peaceful planet into war for the cause of converting it to the purity they envision. No matter what stands in their way.

Illidan was chosen one, so it was sensible to do this. If Yoda brainwashed Anakin, where wouldn't be Vader.

[Dannihilate]

So we become Blizzards version of the "Eternal Champion" in our everlasting fight against the powers of Order and Entropy.
I wonder who is the big Michael Moorcock fan there.

More like the Blizz version of John Sheridan fighting against the powers of the Vorlons and the Shadows.

[Ulthane]

Honestly this is a very very tricky topic and it kinda involves a few stretch theories and how to approach lore in regard to the Light, Void and the AU.

With Chronicle 1 it states that in the beginning there was only Light. So being there is only Light and thats all it is then it is balanced. The Cosmic Ecosystem in this case is just pure light and that's how it began, end of story. We find similar cases from Biblical senses to even that of Lord of the Rings (The Silmarillion) and even a bit in Lovecraftian Lore. Well from the Light came Void, in this case we can see a Lucifarian/Satanic and/or Sauron/Balrog scenario taking place. From a biblical sense we know about the Fallen Angels and how they went dark, in the Lord of the Rings we see a being who deviated from the song to become the first Balrog. In WoW we see how Void came from Light, in that conflict the Twisting Nether came to be and eventually Fel. However from that the ordering began and you see things like the Makers (Titans) and other domains of life and power however in turn Death (the first sins) became a thing.

Now sure, im kinda going a bit bible boy here (only very mildly) but I think this is needed to explain what we are seeing. The Naaru are very VERY forceful, they are DEMANDING our worship in a very aggressive manner. Before Xe'ra our best example was A'dal. We never saw this behavior before, this is new. Playing Paladin since day 1 vanilla and following the story very closely I have never seen this before til recently. Even in WC2 and 3 this wasn't even brought up. So what changed? What makes this happen now? From all my experiences with divine material from RP (DnD/Pathfinder), stories/novels, mythology and fantasy to even biblical with Lovecraft material I can say I really think we are dealing with Fallen Angels. They will appear to us with offerings and blessings as a wolf in sheeps clothing. I think Blizzard is very slowly delving into this.

Another factor here is "Balance" between Light and Shadow, because though the old Cosmic Ecosystem was all light now it is not. However in ours Void is very strong and in the AU the Light is too strong thus in a way there is balance between the realities however in a singular universe it is not. The time/reality split might be also partially to blame for this and in turn my eyes do go to the Infinite Dragonflight, truth be told this inadvertently adds MUCH more depth to them that may reflect a third party.

Ultimately though I think we are being presented Fallen Naaru and you have to now look at it like this.
-True Light: Angels non fallen
-Banished from the Light: Fallen Naaru (Xe'ra) although they can still use the Light as an energy source this makes sense.
-Void beings: Perhaps true fallen or maybe something else entirely. Like there is the difference between Devils and those who fell from grace but can still be redeemed.
-Fel: Demons spawned from the conflict between Devils and Angels.

It's weird and maybe a VERY VERY big stretch but its smelling of it.

[EbonBehelit-]

The light is beneficial, it has always been. But it has also always been usable as a weapon. Fanatics using it for their own ends is nothing new. The Scarlet Crusade is a good example. They believe what they're doing is the right thing, and the light doesn't oppose to their actions even though they are most definitely evil by definition, with the torture and all.

The most important thing about that is how the Scarlet Crusade chose their path. They weren't "corrupted" by the Light, but rather used it to fuel their own zealotry.

As far as the scenario goes though: this development seems totally out of character for Y'rel, so I would chalk it up to the Naaru being amoral authoritarians a la Xe'ra.
On the other hand, the Orcs did wage a war of genocide on the Draenei during the events of WoD (no matter how much Blizz wants to hand-wave it away), so I would think there'd still be enough hatred to justify some heavy-handed moves.

[Benomatic]

He's part of the Lightbound. AU Garrosh, that is (or presumably, as it was stated to be the Warchief's own son).

Careful! A Naaru may have ressed MU Garrosh as a champion of the light after we defeated Archimond and went home!

[Mixxy]

Have you played WoD? Horde had pretty much all of the positive orc interactions.

Horde basically only interacted with the Frostwolf - which have been wiped out by the time of BFA, it seems.

So no, the Mag'har are more or less exclusively comprised of Iron Horde clans.

[Dagoth Ur]

I feel like we're both assuming a lot of things in different directions. I'm assuming Blizzard will portray this group as oppressive murderous and "evil". It looks like you're assuming the opposite.

From what they say in those broadcast texts, it seems to me like they really think they're saving them. That's why I thought it's a little bit creepy.

We can save Draenor together!
Join us in the Light, brothers and sisters!
The time of Grommash is past. Embrace a new future!
The Light saved us. It can save you, too!
The High Exarch only wishes the best for us all!

[bloodmoth13]

But they aren't even Alliance.

close enough, and at this point ill take what i can get

[Caerule]

Horde basically only interacted with the Frostwolf - which have been wiped out by the time of BFA, it seems.

I'm afraid that is not actually correct. That is an assumption. All we know is that Durotan is dead. However, his wife lives and his daughter will lead the Mag'har to Azeroth. So I'd say overall, the Frostwolves are probably not in bad state.

Not that it seems to matter. While the Mag'har honor the old clans, they seem to have moved forwards to become a united Horde that has lost much of its clan lines, just like Azeroth's Horde.

[arcaneshot]

Fun story, Maraad died to defend a bunch of fanatics.

Garrosh & Blackhand must be having a laugh in Draenorhell.

You seem to have forgotten that Maraad was one of those Light-wielding fanatics that is being talked about in this topic.

[Arrashi]

From what they say in those broadcast texts, it seems to me like they really think they're saving them. That's why I thought it's a little bit creepy.

We can save Draenor together!
Join us in the Light, brothers and sisters!
The time of Grommash is past. Embrace a new future!
The Light saved us. It can save you, too!
The High Exarch only wishes the best for us all!

Aka they are standard indoctrinated religious assholes. Gotta rev that chainsaw for when they knock the door.