How Can PvP Be Realistically Improved?

[Craaazyyy]

LOL you are pretty selfish dont you?

what are u talking about? lol

[Sencha]

LOL First comment I see when I click on topic. Simply... hilarious. So, that instantly removes all casters from being able to pvp/duels.

???

/10chars

[Caolela]

I am sure you aren't. While you want gear to matter a lot. What i told you is the consequence of gear mattering a lot.



WOW has not been about gear while leveling up, as you easily could do the questing content ignoring the need to get new gear outside of quest rewards. It was the same in classic. I leveled chars in classic, the quest rewards were enough to get to 60.



Don't get upset. That won't make your arguments better.

You also skipped a line from my former post.

Do you think heroic- or mythic raiders should be able to dominate battlegrounds just because of their gear, while they never played pvp before? Because that is the other consequence from your idea gear should be everything in a MMORPG.

No, Legion's gearing scheme and templates is Blizzard's idea of what gearing/char progression should be for PvP, not mine. Not even a decent try at blaming someone for something they haven't said or supported. I've been directly opposed to it since before it went live.

Try to keep up, son.

Like you did about twinking, you're just pulling things out of your ass. No point in wasting more keystrokes here because I've said all I have to say on this several times now.

[Kagthul]

Kagthuls argument is constructed. He takes numbers and assumes all those pvp players would want to gear up for matchmade pvp. While he infact doesn't know what people want.

Argumenting against people who talk about numbers when they neither know any context nor if those numbers are any kind of valid is actually easy.

Argumenting? .....
....
......

Lulz.

I have no idea what you're on about here. I've never said anything about matchmade anything.

Ill distill it down for you:

You said (paraphrasing) - "PvP should be 100% equal and gear shouldn't matter ever no matter what."

I said - "people dont want that."

I backed it up with the facts - that even as late as WoD, as much as 45% of the entire player base did enough PvP to get an entire set of conquest gear (which you can determine via achievements - the 25k Conquest Points for that season is an achievement and is what an entire set of gear costs, roundabouts).

That's not refutable. That's outright fact.

I then said that as we transitioned into Legion, the lack of meaningful rewards destroyed the PvP player base. As we had figured out before, doing enough PvP to get Prestige 8 is about what it would take to get a full set of Conquest gear through casual PvP.

The number of people who have Prestige 8 is less than 4% of the entire player base.

That's a 90% drop in participation. Ninety. Percent.

On top of that, it didn't make Rated PvP more relevant either. People abandoned that in droves as well - with the current season's ladder looking to have less than 60,000 people on it.

The last season of WoD had over 250k, IIRC, and the average before WoD was over 600,000.

That's also a HUGE drop.

It's not a hard logic path to follow:

A tiny minority of people whined about "PvP shouldn't be about gear!!!11!1!!!1" and Blizzard gave them what they wanted.

And then the ladder imploded and PvP participation fell by over NINETY PERCENT, because the rewards from PvP were only meaningful if you could get into the top 10% or so of players.

Remove the rewards, and the players go elsewhere. It's not a hard concept. Except, apparently, for you.

[Osmeric]

There are players who only want to do unrated PvP.

So, what is the reward for these players, if gear is not to matter in unrated PvP?

Are they to get gear for PvE? That doesn't seem terribly workable, if the devs don't want such rewards to obsolete too much PvE content.

[Kagthul]

No, i didnt say that. I said gear should not matter in matchmade pvp content. Seems you misunderstood me.

Because you used a phrase to mean something it doesn't mean. "Matchmade" has quite literally not EVER meant "Random BGs" in WoW.

Ever.

And no, i didn't misunderstand you. Your idea is just dumb AF.

Your achievements dont show that people want to gear up for leveling battlegrounds and matchmade battlegrounds. And that is what i talked about.

Which is utterly irrelevant. They show that before this change you think is nirvana, 45% of the entire playerbase PvPed a fairly decent amount at end-game, and that after this change, LESS THAN 4% OF THE PLAYERBASE does any decent amount of PvP.

The rewards vanished, and so did the players.

Result: You argumented for the wrong case, with numbers which have nothing to do with my statement.

Argumented is not a word. Seriously.

And no, i didn't make the wrong case. You want gear to not matter at all in casual PvP.

The playerbase obviously DOES NOT want this. The numbers bear that out. The rewards went away (you can get better gear than you can in Random BGs from World Quests, and gear that is better than even rated gear up until about 2200 rating from simply wandering around Argus collecting treasure chests and killing rares).. and so did the players.

Before: 45% of the player base did a great deal of PvP at the end-game.

After: Less than 4% of the player base does a great deal of PvP at end-game.

That's a monumental fucking failure no matter how you look at it, and the only serious change was the Template/Gear system. The only thing that changed was a step closer (almost directly to) your supposed "gear shouldnt matter at all" nirvana... and NINETY FUCKING PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE PARTICIPATING IN END-GAME PVP WALKED AWAY.

And, i never said they did PvP to get gear for "matchmade PvP". Even in WoD, Conquest gear was roughly equal to Normal Raid gear (in PvE, with the separate scaling)... which is all most regular players ever really care to get. So they were doing PvP to get gear. Period. Full Stop. Not "get gear for PvP" or "get gear for PvE".. just to get gear, period. Because for most players, getting Normal-mode Raid equivalent gear is just fine. I was one of them, since Vanilla. As long as my gear was "close" to raiding gear, that was fine. I geared FIVE toons every season through nothing but casual PvP and ended up with a complte set of Conquest gear for each of them.

This xpac... (since i abhor Arena and Rated BGs are a shitfest of cheating, hacking, and win-trading) i've played maybe 30BGs the ENTIRE xpac. And none in the last few months. All five of my toons (six now, forgot my new boosted Shadow Priest, who isn't quite up to the same level yet) - but my five established toons are all 940/945... from Argus treasures and world quests. To get that iLevel in PvP id have to be 2200+.. in a form of PvP id rather never fucking play.

- - - Updated - - -

Matchmaking is the process named in games where the system assembles groups. Contrary to premade groups.

In rated battlegrounds, you have premade groups. In none rated battlegrounds you have a matchmaking system in place.

As a consequence, when i talk about matchmade battlegrounds, i mean none rated ones, where you queue up for solo. And these should not have a gear scaling. While rated and none matchmade group pvp should have gear scaling and prerequisites.

As a consequence, matchmade pvp would be fair, and organized pvp would offer the gear treadmill, which is obviously something organized pvp players would like to have.

As a consequence, no one would ever bother playing "matchmade" PvP as you put it. NO ONE would do Casuals for literally no reward. It would be just like it is now, with a near 90% drop in participation.

Man, are you thick AF.

And.. the only person discussing leveling PvP is you. No one who gives a solitary fuck about PvP cares about the completely unbalancable shitfest that is low level PvP. Even disregarding gear, you're missing abilities and talents that in a lot of cases are mandatory to even make your class viable.... and some classes DONT suffer from that problem (low level warriors and hunters chew things up because all they really need is a few hard-hitting skills and they just mongo on you and you die - but try playing, say, a warlock at low level. its a steaming pile.)

So rant on all you want about low level PvP, but that shit is NEVER going to be balanced. Ever. Its not even possible because of missing skills and talents.

[Deleted]

Most of you talk about rewards but that's absurd, playing something for sake as obvious reward means that said thing is poorly designed. You should be playing it for sake of having fun of playing. This is currently impossible in legion because of horrible, horrible balance. Rogues needs massive nerf, DHs rework, BM Hunters as well, Warriors another nerf and so DKs.. then we can build from there. But right now PvP is suffering and only motivation for anyone else then mentioned are said rewards but that's fundamentaly wrong approach. Make Game itself, PVP ITSELF fun.

[Linkedblade]

I think they should adopt a few things from other games.

1) Each class found have a simple, yet unique specialization for pvp. Similar to how Rift was. This reduces the 36 to balance down to 12.

2) Have gear dependant and gear normalized matchmaking. This is similar to how it is now, but in random matchmaking you should be receive no bonus from gear, but in ranked you should.

3) Need to pick the de facto pvp mode. It's ridiculous to try to balance 10v10, 15v15, 2v2,3v3, and 5v5

4) Bring back purchasable gear using tokens. Why did this ever go away??

[Deleted]

the consistent dmg has to be higher, reduce the dmg impact on offensive cooldowns.
pvp should be balanced around 1v1, so its automatically balanced in all brackets.
As a good dps you should be able to kill a healer.
Defensive cooldowns should also be lowered, you should be able to create enough pressure without 2minute cooldowns.
we need more utility back and the dmg rotations need more complexity.

right now if you have good gameknowledge, you can hop on any class and play it high rated in 1 day, the game allready feels like a moba and no rpg.
Pvp gear need to come back.
The talent trees are garbage, in most cases you can choose between AOE or Singletarget dmg, it should all be baseline (When i have to press a ST spell or when i do AOE).

the whole game just lost the complexity and the skillgap isn't there anymore, the classdesign is just bad for pvp.

[Osmeric]

The rewards still would be gear, but it would not matter for unrated PVP.

If that is paradox? No, as gear doesnt really matter for normal dungeons as well. Still you use the gear rewards for heroic dungeons.

Matchmade pvp would reward gear, but not need gear.

As like normal dungeons are the lowest entry for pve gear, matchmade battlegrounds would be the lowest entry for pvp. Rewarding gear for other pvp content.

Matchmade battlegrounds would always be queueable and usable by green equipped fresh level 120 chars. And they could equip their chars using battlegrounds. And they had fun doing so, as they wont just be cannonfodder for heroic or mythic players.

Same goes for levelling battlegrounds. It wouldnt matter if you are fully equipped with heirlooms, your stats would be the same as a new player without heirlooms, which would give him a chance to compete.

Organized and rated pvp, on the other hand, would need gear. Which you either get from matchmade pvp, or dungeons or raids.

What this idea means is that anyone who does PvE content beyond LFR would have no reward from doing casual PvP.

Unification of gear has caused different parts of the game to interfere with each other. This is a bad thing overall. When PvP gear worked better in PvP, and PvE gear worked better in PvE, this destructive interference was less of a problem.

[therealstegblob]

CC is rampant and out of control, completely nonsensical and has primarily been what's ruined (or what made it always bad) WoW's pvp.

Visual clarity sucks.

Healing has always been badly balanced.

Fix those and it'd be not so awful, I guess.

[kran1um]

- rid the healers and tanks in 2s - 3s limit only 1 heals per team.

- tanks shouldnt pvp in arena in the future, sucks going against unkillable and high dps tanks now - either make them hit like wet noodles with DR healing or rid them.

- remove same classes in one arena. nothing like going against 3 frost mages or 3 rogues or 3 ferals or 3 fDK's or 3...

- only 1 pillar or none. nothing grinds my gears more than seeing a pally run circles around a pillar with a pair of lemmings following.

- insert an Armageddon, where if the game lasts more than 10 minutes some PVE bullshit comes out to where not only you have to watch the opposition, you have to watch fire walls, spikes, arrows from walls - now that would be fun. nothing is more painful than a rogue and disc priest fighting it out for 55 minutes with neither wanting to quit.. And besides if no one dies in 8 minutes - both teams are even and its who makes a mistake first - long boring games. Or even an aura decay so that will make people not drag out games and actually have to fight and not stealth the whole game, trying to find that troll rogue that doesnt want to close game because his partner died is time consuming.

- minimize cc; they are doing this. no more 2vs1 crap. nothing like seeing your partner cycloned the whole match while you are running from a lock and boomkin.

- 10s afk checks or DC checks.

[Xycho2d]

RBG's > Larger variety of classes instead of stacking.

[Odyseas]

-Dps specs doing a shiton of healing without any real drawback or penalty.
-Classes doing mediocre damage 80% of the fight and then suddenly destroying people within nanoseconds as soon as they pop CD's.
-As a warlock, I feel that the game has a lot of interrupts and silences.
-Ability pruning
-I feel like the oversimplification of the game mechanisms and spells made classes too...similar. not sure if this makes sense? What Im trying to say is that when everyone has a type of an X ability then class Y, which was the only class that had said X ability, loses its uniqueness...

I don't know exactly what must be done to fix PvP as I am neither a PvP expect nor a game developer but the flaws of the game are just too obvious.

[Ovacor]

Realistically it could be improved by simply having an easy and reliable way to gear. Back in the day the PvPers fed on PvE'ers who wanted to get to appropriate item level for PvE content, this was often quickly achieved through PvP vendors. Once they quit having a reasonable way to gear through PvP all those PvEer's that fed the egos of the already geared PvP'er no longer have ANY reason aside from mounts and titles to step into PvP. This fix alone would increase the number of people queueing for battlegrounds, including healers which this game seriously lacks right now.

That's an easy way to improve the game, if you're asking how we can bring WoW PvP back to it's roots? It can't. Blizzard has long since turned off most of my circle who enjoy PvP by being WAY too hands on with their own games. It is a shame because as a group we definitely had the most fun during WoW's PvP, have a couple friends who compete in MoBa tournaments and CS:GO now, their WoW days are long behind them. I only know this as I am the only one who even plays anymore, it simply is not a game the PvPers that I have known/know look to anymore. They tried pushing the Esport crap about 4 expansions too late, no one wants to watch competitive arena anymore blizzard.

[Kagthul]

@Kagthul lost himself in insults and not understanding the terms, so i stop answering him.

I accept your ad-hominem concession. YOU dont get to define terms. Literally the only person using "matchmade" for Randos is you.

[Kagthul]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchmaking_(video_games)



In general, the difference between a matchmade group and a premade group is, that a matchmade group was assembled by a game system, while the premade group was assembled by a player.

I assume you have some kind of point here.

There are all sorts of terms that mean something completely different when use in gaming jargon and when used in real-life. Or even differ from game to game for the same exact term.

How you can't understand this is beyond me. At this point, deliberate trolling is all i have left.

Enjoy ignore.

[Battlebeard]

Shorter, more fast paced games!
Which means increased DPS, reduced CC, reduced healing! It should be more about reflexes and the ability to act really fast. Todays PvP is so boring and dragged out. I tried watching the Arena tournament and litterally fell asleep. It could have been cause it was 5am or it could have been the games themselves, which I honestly thinks!

[Deleted]

Shorter, more fast paced games!
Which means increased DPS, reduced CC, reduced healing! It should be more about reflexes and the ability to act really fast. Todays PvP is so boring and dragged out. I tried watching the Arena tournament and litterally fell asleep. It could have been cause it was 5am or it could have been the games themselves, which I honestly thinks!

Yeah, agreed. Sometimes PvP is just exhausting because it goes on and on and on...

[szandos]

Put all cc on the same DR, including slows. Remove self heals from all dps. Lower healing by ~20% overall (tanks and healers).