"Trials deserve loot too"

[Deleted]

So you jump in and expect others to do your homework to gratify your need for instant participation?

Alright, I'll hold your hand and link a few replies if you do an attempt at posting intelligently without any Straw Man fallacies.

I jump in and expect to get people actually discussing this, and not endless ad hominem's. No need to dig up you insulting others and just reply to what people are actually saying.

But i get it, there is no discussing anything with you, you just try to insult people. Fact of the matter is that the removal of ML is just yet another unneeded and unwanted level of RNG on the loot system. There is enough RNG on the loot as it is and trails often get a lot of upgrades as the core raiders already have been able to loot most things in previous kills.

[nocturnus]

I jump in and expect to get people actually discussing this, and not endless ad hominem's. No need to dig up you insulting others and just reply to what people are actually saying.

Ah, so you ask for arguments, refuse to read them when generously provided and add a new Straw Man to boot.

Yeah, my opinion of your persona was on point. We're done

Now have the last word as the predictable little boy you are and adieu.

You have not given any!!!

Are you freaking blind or just extremely slow? I've linked three posts which broach the subject extensively.

[Deleted]

Ah, so you ask for arguments, refuse to read them when generously provided and add a new Straw Man to boot.

Yeah, my opinion of your persona was on point. We're done

Now have the last word as the predictable little boy you are and adieu.

Right, now i refuse to read them?? You have not given any!!!
And again with the ad homenim's, im guessing that is all you can do. I can't help it that you do not have any valid argument (if you had one you'd use it) and have to revert to these pointless personal attacks.

And my opinion of your persona is on point there is no way you dropped anything and all you can do is insult people while thinking you've made a point. You may cuss at me some more if you want to, you make me giggle.

[Yseraboy]

Oh I'll deal with it by making sure I only take friends and trustworthy people. Any trial will remain a trial and do as told or they can go find another guild. There's going to be far stricter requirments to get into any progressing guild.

Deal with it.

Any trial will remain a trial?

So I would be shunned by the guild just because they can’t prevent me from getting loot from kills which I contributed to?

Yeah, find another guild is right.

[nocturnus]

If a thread is at 155+ pages, which this one is, chances are all the rational arguments are already done more than 100+ pages ago. Anything else is ad hominem, ignoring details, and just bickering for the sake of it. If I were a mod, I'd have locked this thread 100+ pages ago.

Actually, the decent conversations started quite late in the thread, but yeah, everything after that was a repetition of arguments for the lazy fucks who felt entitled to participate but weren't up to skimming the thread.

[Yseraboy]

Sure is nice having someone swoop in 200 attempts into a boss and claiming loot if they happen to kill that boss shortly thereafter.

Swoop in? Claiming?

200 attempts and you don’t “happen” to get the kill until “shortly” after they start contributing?

You need examples that strengthen your argument, not weaken it.

[nocturnus]

Swoop in? Claiming?

200 attempts and you don’t “happen” to get the kill until “shortly” after they start contributing?

You need examples that strengthen your argument, not weaken it.

Didn't you know? All these awesome mythic raiders here are running a charity where they recruit undergeared, unprepared, inexperienced players.

[Galateacyc]

Are you being intentionally obtuse? 20 people killed the boss. 19 regulars have 19 chances at loot. 1 trial has 1 chance at loot. Entirely proportional to the time spent in this raid.

So, just to be clear... If I buy a carry off of Limit/Easy (NA account and all), I did the same amount of work everybody in Limit/Easy did? Cool!
That should make applying to other guilds much simpler after I tell them I'm just as good as any Limit/Easy member.

[Accendor]

But for real, this is a bad change and Blizzard should revert it.

[nocturnus]

So, just to be clear... If I buy a carry off of Limit/Easy (NA account and all), I did the same amount of work everybody in Limit/Easy did? Cool!
That should make applying to other guilds much simpler after I tell them I'm just as good as any Limit/Easy member.

Any half decent guild will ask you for your logs.

Try again please.

[Yseraboy]

How many wipes did method do on kj? Like 800?

Imagine you're a trail that comes in on attempt number 799, all those wipes beforehand you never helped with. Then you RNG the item everyone wants.

Its fucked.

Why such bad examples given in this thread?

If you really failed on 798 attempts, then why be pissed that the player who put you over the top wins the RNG lottery?

You’ve more than proven you couldn’t do it without them.

[Deleted]

Why such bad examples given in this thread?

If you really failed on 798 attempts, then why be pissed that the player who put you over the top wins the RNG lottery?

You’ve more than proven you couldn’t do it without them.

Because the other +20 people didn't learn nor develop anything over the course of the 798 pulls. They were stupid enough to not recruit/reroll that one class (bring the class, not the player) earlier. Makes total sense.

[Yseraboy]

They just force the personal drama on the people. Because now the guy has to decide if he wants to keep the item and aggrevate the group, or if he parts with the item and feels shittier than if he never had it in the first place.

I'm not even really against the change, but this whole thing brings issues with them which they clearly haven't thought about.

How does ML not “force the drama on the people”? It changes the “power dynamic” of the decision, but not the fact that the players are involved.

- - - Updated - - -

By making loot personal, all you're doing is randomizing loot distribution, so that blizzard can balance fights around random gear disparities. You wont need to funnel loot to certain roles/classes.

I was wondering about that.

Not having to make things incredibly hard at the start, then pre-announce nerfs so guilds can try and avoid the embarrassment of only getting a boss post-nerf.

Reduces guild-hopping, because I can’t trick a stepping-stone guild into gearing me for the guild I really want to apply for.

[KaPe]

Because the other +20 people didn't learn nor develop anything over the course of the 798 pulls. They were stupid enough to not recruit/reroll that one class (bring the class, not the player) earlier. Makes total sense.

Let's not forget that the new guy can simply get lucky and not be targeted by the worst mechanics, thus not really having a chance to mess it up. Depending on the boss, it can happen for multiple pulls easily. Makes it seem like they're so amazing and more worthy of loot than any of those "member noobs" - except when it's finally their turn, they fail.

[Galateacyc]

Any half decent guild will ask you for your logs.

Try again please.

What do logs have to do with anything? The assertions being made was crap like:
- that 1/20th of raid = 1/20th of the effort leading to the result, hence deserving 1/20th of the reward
and
- that those 19 people needed you to kill the boss.
Are you backing out of those now?

Statements like these completely ignore the effort the guild puts in to make a good raid environment, to learn fights and coordinate. Those are often the reasons the trial wishes to join the guild and is willing to accept the conditions the guild imposes.

As for logs, you know as well as I do that logs can be cherry picked (heck, at one point I was world #7 for my spec on a boss in BRF - doesn't mean I'm actually that good). Hence why trialing exists - to verify logs and impressions you left from the interview.
Furthermore, these changes don't only apply to world first mythic guilds, but also to mythic guilds that never end up clearing and everyone in between. The lower you go on the totem pole the more the guilds have to relax their standards and be willing to give people a chance. ML was the guild's insurance policy on taking a risk on someone. So take a guess as to how guild behavior will change upon the removal of the insurance policy. Hint: the person trialing does not benefit. And before you say that only bad quilds are affected, then I'll point out that if bad guilds die, then the level of guilds directly above them inherit all their problems - the problems don't just go away.

[MookieRah]

you know as well as I do that logs can be cherry picked

Except once they know your character name and server, as long as you uploaded the logs they should have access to all of them. Sure, you can submit a cherry picked log, but it will hang out next to all of your others. If you have done extensive raiding then it should be easy to tell the caliber of player someone is. You can't really hide anything (gameplay wise) in a log, it's all there for the world to see once it's uploaded.

[kaelleria]

My main issue with ML going the way of the dodo is that it rewards players with spotty attendance that generally would not receive loot over those that show up day in day out. It also makes it very difficult to gear up a new character quickly.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

My main issue with ML going the way of the dodo is that it rewards players with spotty attendance that generally would not receive loot over those that show up day in day out. It also makes it very difficult to gear up a new character quickly.

So now you get rewarded by Blizzard for being there and making the kill possible. Instead of possibly being shafted because some people made up 3rd party rules that punish people while rewarding their clique. That's why it's a great change. People loyal to Blizzard are rewarded. Loyalty to cliques is less so. If you like them and you have simular goals that's what keeps you together instead of a loot funnel that taxes and hazes new commers because you can.

[Marxman]

Reduces guild-hopping, because I can’t trick a stepping-stone guild into gearing me for the guild I really want to apply for.

Increases guild-hopping because you have no incentive to stick it out. You have no need to gain favor and tenure in your guild. You don't have to earn your place to receive a reward. You are free to hop from guild to guild, with the same chance at loot each time you bail and join a new guild.

Trials aren't withheld loot because guilds are cruel or biased. Trials are withheld loot because they aren't members of the guild yet. You have not yet earned the right to loot. I don't understand why some people aren't getting that. You don't join Walmart as a cashier and earn the same as the corporate executive who's been there for 12 years. That's not how the world (of warcraft) works.

[nocturnus]

What do logs have to do with anything?

What do they have to do with anything? Seriously? It's the first thing I look up. If the logs don't meet my requirements, there won't even be an interview.