Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[Nahela]

4pc T21 really just requires a change in philosophy to how often you can use Meta, to which the answer is "a lot more often"

that would be great m8

https://wago.io/rJL0JkqXM This was originally a modification on Munkky's WA that will also highlight Spirit Bomb when you have 4 or more fragments active. There's a slight delay on it, but it's dramatically better than the default UI tracking.

[Munkky]

Unless you're rolling ridiculous TF luck exclusively on offset pieces, there should be no major ilvl dropping involved given that it's the current tier.

Are you using purely theoretical data, or experiential data? I really just don't agree with your numbers on this at all, but I'd love to see where it's coming from to get a better perspective to understand it. From my experience I'm seeing at least a solid minute taken off of every Meta, an overall 33% CDR. That's an enormous benefit to an extremely powerful CD. It seems absurd for the community to be recommending a conditional 5% parry increase (the 2pc) and then saying a ~33% CDR for our biggest defensive CD is 'not worth it'.

A mixture of each. I had theoretical data prior to the raid, then made new observations based on actual data from the raid. Using parry count, fight time, etc. Very easy to get that data and do simple math.

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I'm not saying the 2pc isn't valuable, it is. I'm just saying that I feel the 4pc is even more valuable beyond that.

Again, it comes down to this all being theoretical; both with no experiential data nor the math used being shown. The end result is what I feel is a very, very poor recommendation given my own experience with the set. It's not even a situation where 'sometimes' you get good CDR on it. You nearly always do and sometimes you get amazing CDR on it (see: 3 Metas in < 4 minutes). I'm ignoring M+ for the sake of this recommendation, though it is worth noting that it provides a comical amount of CDR there.

For the sake of comparison, as I've mentioned a couple times, this is also by the same token people are dismissing Riftworld Codex on purely (bad) theoretical data, when it's possibly one of, if not the, best damage smoothing tools in the raid. It's going to take another reset or two for me to get more complete personal data on it, but as of right now it accounts for ~16% of my self-healing on average. Which, needless to say, is a very high number for a single trinket. The downside is that Crit isn't the greatest stat, but it's a little better this tier with the 4pc parry synergy. Worth more if you're at particularly low levels of Parry. There's also a negligible damage value here, but maybe to the tune of 2-3%. Worth more in M+, of course.

It just seems to me that we should be doing a better job informing others and not hanging on to questionable and purely theoretical data for this long.

I'm working with the guys who wrote the survival trinket document as well as the afterward talking specifically about Riftworld Codex. The "old theoretical data" was based on the trinket on PTR. I just used it in raid last night and it is showing very similar results to what was found on the PTR. I'm not sure if the "rumor" that it was buffed was just a rumor or if its purely based on M+, which effects RPPM, on top of it being a decent M+ trinket, skewing the results.

The issue that the "same token people" have with the Codex, is that it isn't RELIABLE, which is one of the main reasons RPPM/Proc trinkets generally aren't strong for tanking progression. When it works, it's great. However you cannot count on that everytime, where as on-use or always on trinkets (Darkmoon Deck Immortality) are reliable, making them far more desirable. On top of that, Healing trinkets need to provide a larger amount of healing to make up for the fact that they are reactive and their effects can be wasted due to overhealing. Which HoTs/procs are heavily susceptible too. Seeing a trinket do "X% of my healing" means little in the grand scheme. It has to be based off "the trinket did X healing per tick/total" on top of it being turned on when it needs to be.

In Conclusion, regardless of what the final results end up being, it is a proc trinket that provides most of its defensiveness through healing. Both of which are unreliable in a progression environment, which is what the documents are for. It is stronger in M+ than raid, and especially on lower content, all of which skews the perception of the trinket.

[Nahela]

I simply don't agree with the philosophy behind proc trinkets with that high uptime being 'useless'. There are so few cases at this point where we need to be relying on a trinket for a CD, especially with the T21 bonuses. But, it is what it is. I'm going to continue doing what I do, as it works for me. It's just a shame the tanking community as a whole gets so stuck to the point of not even showing others the options available to them.

[Munkky]

I simply don't agree with the philosophy behind proc trinkets with that high uptime being 'useless'. There are so few cases at this point where we need to be relying on a trinket for a CD, especially with the T21 bonuses. But, it is what it is. I'm going to continue doing what I do, as it works for me. It's just a shame the tanking community as a whole gets so stuck to the point of not even showing others the options available to them.

I didn't say it was "useless". I said it was unreliable. Very big difference. You speak of "ignorance within the tank community while showing your own. I am working on this data with 3 other tanks, 2 of which are knowledgeable/respected theorycrafters. It's not about being stuck on an idea, as I am more than willing to show support for things that aren't "meta" as long as there is a valid arguement for the "other opinion". However there is a lot of data and common sense which counter acts the arguements for using Codex. I'm sorry that your opinion isn't that of the majority, however by no means are we being ignorant of it. I would argue this trinket has gotten the most attention and time of the theorycrafters compared to any other tank trinket this expansion, as well as bringing together those of multiple classes.

To each their own.

[Delimit]

I simply don't agree with the philosophy behind proc trinkets with that high uptime being 'useless'. There are so few cases at this point where we need to be relying on a trinket for a CD, especially with the T21 bonuses. But, it is what it is. I'm going to continue doing what I do, as it works for me. It's just a shame the tanking community as a whole gets so stuck to the point of not even showing others the options available to them.

The uptime isn't that high. You also don't need to rely on random procs to provide what amounts to being non life saving meter padding much of the time. Yes, you can keep doing what you're doing, you can wear a bunch of Int gear in heroic if that's what floats your boat, it doesn't much matter in that content. The reality is, you'd be just fine or better off without it.

[Khiyone]

The T20 2pc is 5.25% effective health; 40 ilevels on a chestpiece gives around 3.5%ish just from the stamina alone, and around 0.5% from the armor.

The armor from 40 ilevels on a chestpiece gives roughly 1% EH, not 0,5%. So one has ~4,5% EH from the stamina/armor on a chestpiece (secondaries add marginally to this) compared to 5,25% from the T20 2pc at a large loss of agility. So yes, the T20 2pc is only really going to be worth around this much for pure mitigation, and for e.g. Imonar bridge it doesn't even work while stamina obviously does.

[Resurgo]

I simply don't agree with the philosophy behind proc trinkets with that high uptime being 'useless'. There are so few cases at this point where we need to be relying on a trinket for a CD, especially with the T21 bonuses. But, it is what it is. I'm going to continue doing what I do, as it works for me. It's just a shame the tanking community as a whole gets so stuck to the point of not even showing others the options available to them.

The tanking community is simply going to go with what works best or more accurately, most reliable. A trinket, like the one you mentioned, may have a high proc chance, but so what? It's not under your control. Fun procs might be great for dps, but our job as tanks is to reliably stay alive. Having cooldowns to use at your command is simply more control. Putting your fate in the hands of RNG because of a proc is (for most of the tank community) simply dumb.

That's not to say you can't use that trinket. I'll use that trinket when I know the fight well enough that I don't have to worry about dying from something unexpected. However, when it's important and being able to depend on something to be usable when you want it is more important than a high proc chance.

[Nahela]

I mean, I've been using it during progression and have had low damage intake, high healing, and I think I've died literally once, to something completely unrelated to normal sustainability. There's so much coverage now with all the options available and that trinket adds to it.

But again, it's whatever. The community is far too aggressive for it to be worth discussing otherwise at this point.

[JokezZ]

Aight guys, I´m about to hop into my next tanking class.
"Muchas Gracias!" for all the information, ideas and POVs shared here.
Keep ur stuff up, its rly helpful!

[Saverem]

Ran a 19 yesterday... Have to get used to the whole new playstyle. I no longer feel immortal on trash mobs and the whole "use SB as soon as you get 5 frags for dat juicy damage" meta is gone. Now you tank pretty much like a BDK and you NEED those soul frags for when you get slapped in the face.

I started off playing like I did in Legion, just sucking up 5 frags with SB so I can do DAT PHAT DEEPS but ended up actually dying to trash. Can you believe that? ME dying to 19 trash?!?!?!? I was both shocked AND appalled and had to start actually paying attention to incoming damage from then on.

The main thing I got out of it is that we lost a ton of mitigation and we now rely on soul frag heals in order to tank. So now you have to sacrifice DPS in order to survive.

[Extremities]

Ran a 19 yesterday... Have to get used to the whole new playstyle. I no longer feel immortal on trash mobs and the whole "use SB as soon as you get 5 frags for dat juicy damage" meta is gone. Now you tank pretty much like a BDK and you NEED those soul frags for when you get slapped in the face.

I started off playing like I did in Legion, just sucking up 5 frags with SB so I can do DAT PHAT DEEPS but ended up actually dying to trash. Can you believe that? ME dying to 19 trash?!?!?!? I was both shocked AND appalled and had to start actually paying attention to incoming damage from then on.

The main thing I got out of it is that we lost a ton of mitigation and we now rely on soul frag heals in order to tank. So now you have to sacrifice DPS in order to survive.

I feel like our self healing is damn near non-existant now, even with shards, it's extreeeemely weak now. Basically dmg and healing feel like a shell of what Vengeance used to be.

[Saverem]

I feel like our self healing is damn near non-existant now, even with shards, it's extreeeemely weak now. Basically dmg and healing feel like a shell of what Vengeance used to be.

In M+ it does because before we would heal for more the more mobs there were because of our crazy good leech. Now we heal for less on trash packs but for more on boss fights. You have to change your whole method of thinking now. Before it was ALL ABOUT DPS. The more DPS you did, the more you healed via your leech, now your heal comes from damage taken. It works like a BDK where you have to wait to be hit by a big attack before you can use your soul frags since they now heal for 8% of all the damage taken in the last 5s or else you won't heal for shit (1% hp per frag which is a nerf from Legion).


It sort of makes me want to talent out of SB for now so I can ween off of my "5 frag bomb" mentality which is no longer good unless you use it after a big hit. Going to try Fel Dev on my next M+ run to see how that works out.

[Extremities]

In M+ it does because before we would heal for more the more mobs there were because of our crazy good leech. Now we heal for less on trash packs but for more on boss fights. You have to change your whole method of thinking now. Before it was ALL ABOUT DPS. The more DPS you did, the more you healed via your leech, now your heal comes from damage taken. It works like a BDK where you have to wait to be hit by a big attack before you can use your soul frags since they now heal for 8% of all the damage taken in the last 5s or else you won't heal for shit (1% hp per frag which is a nerf from Legion).


It sort of makes me want to talent out of SB for now so I can ween off of my "5 frag bomb" mentality which is no longer good unless you use it after a big hit. Going to try Fel Dev on my next M+ run to see how that works out.

I thought it was from damage taken, similar to that of the BDK but for some reason the tooltip on cleave now is just a flat number with nothing mentioned about damage taken. It's strange cause I tested it on the Beta client for 8.0 and it was healing based on dmg taken but now that the patch hit live, its just a flat number. I dont know what happened, almost as if they pulled a fast one on us changing it. 2 days ago on the test server for 8.0 it was healing based off dmg taken, now that 8.0 is live its just a flatnumber.

[Saverem]

Only soul frags heal for damage taken. SC is a flat heal and it sucks up 2 soul frags.

[Tech614]

I thought it was from damage taken, similar to that of the BDK but for some reason the tooltip on cleave now is just a flat number with nothing mentioned about damage taken. It's strange cause I tested it on the Beta client for 8.0 and it was healing based on dmg taken but now that the patch hit live, its just a flat number. I dont know what happened, almost as if they pulled a fast one on us changing it. 2 days ago on the test server for 8.0 it was healing based off dmg taken, now that 8.0 is live its just a flatnumber.

Soul Cleave never healed off damage taken and has been a pathetic heal the entirety of beta/alpha. No fast one was pulled you just mistook fragments for Soul Cleave.

[Extremities]

Soul Cleave never healed off damage taken and has been a pathetic heal the entirety of beta/alpha. No fast one was pulled you just mistook fragments for Soul Cleave.

There must have been a tooltip error/bug on the beta client because it DID at one time mention its healing based on dmg taken and now it's just a flat number. That said, it's rather insane just how much DH's self healing capability has been shafted. Night and day difference sadly

[Tech614]

There must have been a tooltip error/bug on the beta client because it DID at one time mention its healing based on dmg taken and now it's just a flat number. That said, it's rather insane just how much DH's self healing capability has been shafted. Night and day difference sadly

Sure it did.

And nah, our self healing was actually hit less then all other tanks tbh. We are now 1B to 1A with BDK for self sustain in all situations instead of only aoe.

That's just less then it used to be because they don't want it to be a BFA tanking style to live forever without the need for any healer. Blood actually got the hardest self sustain nerfs, yet remains perfectly viable and still top with DH for it.

[Extremities]

Sure it did.

Gotta love useless inflammatory comments like this. What was the purpose of this?

[Tech614]

Gotta love useless inflammatory comments like this. What was the purpose of this?

If you can find me the patch notes for the patch where Soul Cleave healed based off damage taken then by all means I will eat crow. Until then it's a "sure it did" situation. That's the purpose of it.

I got alpha invite in the 3rd week of it being up, and since then Soul Cleave has always been a fixed amount(and that fixed amount has been played with multiple times but it's always been fixed). It's consume soul that was changed to scale with damage in take.

[Extremities]

If you can find me the patch notes for the patch where Soul Cleave healed based off damage taken then by all means I will eat crow. Until then it's a "sure it did" situation. That's the purpose of it.

I got alpha invite in the 3rd week of it being up, and since then Soul Cleave has always been a fixed amount(and that fixed amount has been played with multiple times but it's always been fixed). It's consume soul that was changed to scale with damage in take.

I'm talking about the tooltip dude. When you hover your mouse cursor over the ability and get a description. There was a time on the beta client where the ability itself mentioned dmg taken, not just a flat number. Nothing less, nothing more. I don't know what to tell you other than just what I have seen from the description of the ability itself. Has nothing to do with patch notes or what not. Regardless of your dick measuring contest with how long you've been on the alpah/beta, all Im doing is just telling you what I saw from the ability description on my end with my time on the beta client. Hence why Im wondering if it was just a bug or tooltip error. This argument is fuckin pointless, good job dude with your dick measuring *clap clap*