Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[RobertoCarlos]

Yeah, it's awesome if you're leveling/doing outdoor things etc. But not when you're competiting in PvE(raids/M+), it's just too RNG.

I think that Shiv is a PvP talent since Legion...

Whats your point? We cant want things back that were taken away more than one expansion ago?

Its a new expansion mate, they should be slapping a new name on it calling it shadow something and reselling it back to me as a feature by now

[elfporn]

Whats your point? We cant want things back that were taken away more than one expansion ago?

Its a new expansion mate, they should be slapping a new name on it calling it shadow something and reselling it back to me as a feature by now

shiv is pretty useless in pve. i can't think of any situation where applying poisons by expending energy is any kind of useful. even with the amped up slow. Poison knife does the same thing and is ranged, minus amped slow.

[RobertoCarlos]

shiv is pretty useless in pve. i can't think of any situation where applying poisons by expending energy is any kind of useful. even with the amped up slow. Poison knife does the same thing and is ranged, minus amped slow.

Well back when we had poisons beyond one spec, you could increase their effects with shiv. Also a enrage dispel might be nice so we actually get invited to dungeons/raids with the new spell buffs coming back which rogue have none.

Nothing is always better right?

Also increased spell casting time would be handy af in M+ and would help return some much needed skill cap to the class

[Eazy]

Whats your point? We cant want things back that were taken away more than one expansion ago?

Was just thinking that it's kinda too late for that...

[RobertoCarlos]

Was just thinking that it's kinda too late for that...

Isnt find weakness returning in BFA? so its not unheard of

[elfporn]

Well back when we had poisons beyond one spec, you could increase their effects with shiv. Also a enrage dispel might be nice so we actually get invited to dungeons/raids with the new spell buffs coming back which rogue have none.

Nothing is always better right?

name one instance in legion or bfa where an enrage dispel is useful outside of a raid.

name a situation where expending energy for a melee range amped poison application is worthwhile.(in pve)

Shiv was only ever good in wod when it applied a 90% slow.(for pve)

it definitely belongs as a pvp talent.

[RobertoCarlos]

name one instance in legion or bfa where an enrage dispel is useful outside of a raid.

name a situation where expending energy for a melee range amped poison application is worthwhile.(in pve)

Shiv was only ever good in wod when it applied a 90% slow.(for pve)

it definitely belongs as a pvp talent.

Oh I dunno, you make the 2nd boss in a new dungeon enrage and only a few classes can dispel it. Like shiv on rogue and hunter tranquil shot?

increased spell casting time on caster mobs that do rape damage?

Also increased slow is handy for mobs with chase effects that do massive damage when they catch up to their target.

Kiting in high M+ keys

[elfporn]

Oh I dunno, you make the 2nd boss in a new dungeon enrage and only a few classes can dispel it. Like shiv on rogue and hunter tranquil shot?

increased spell casting time on caster mobs that do rape damage?

Also increased slow is handy for mobs with chase effects that do massive damage when they catch up to their target.

Kiting in high M+ keys

There are no dispellable enrage effects in pve situations in legion(other than raids). In BFA things may be different, and if they add offensive dispellable abilities into pve, the corresponding abilities (shiv, tranq shot, etc) will be available.

Mind numbing poison is a pvp talent. Casters are(largely) interuptable.

Mobs with "chase effects" are usually deliberately slower than player characters. if they are not, the 50% slow applied at range is more advantageous than the 70% slow applied at melee.

Kiting in m+ is almost always done via aoe abilities, which means you're using FoK. Again, 50% slow at range or aoe is a more effective use of energy.

You're trying to argue for shiv to be included in the general use toolkit - we have more effective means of applying slows - mortal strike effects are largely useless outside pvp, mind numbing could be useful, but comes at the cost of slows, and there are more effective means of handling casters. Even the amped 70% slow isn't very useful, shiv is melee range and not aoe; tabbing to slow is a huge opportunity cost in dmg for little gain.

Shiv was marginally useful in pve even before legion, though it definitely saw some use, it would have ranked among the least used abilities for rogues(in pve situations), which is why it became a pvp talent.

[RobertoCarlos]

There are no dispellable enrage effects in pve situations in legion(other than raids). In BFA things may be different, and if they add offensive dispellable abilities into pve, the corresponding abilities (shiv, tranq shot, etc) will be available.

Mind numbing poison is a pvp talent. Casters are(largely) interuptable.

Mobs with "chase effects" are usually deliberately slower than player characters. if they are not, the 50% slow applied at range is more advantageous than the 70% slow applied at melee.

Kiting in m+ is almost always done via aoe abilities, which means you're using FoK. Again, 50% slow at range or aoe is a more effective use of energy.

You're trying to argue for shiv to be included in the general use toolkit - we have more effective means of applying slows - mortal strike effects are largely useless outside pvp, mind numbing could be useful, but comes at the cost of slows, and there are more effective means of handling casters. Even the amped 70% slow isn't very useful, shiv is melee range and not aoe; tabbing to slow is a huge opportunity cost in dmg for little gain.

Shiv was marginally useful in pve even before legion, though it definitely saw some use, it would have ranked among the least used abilities for rogues(in pve situations), which is why it became a pvp talent.

Ok fair enough, but they can at least replace it with something? Instead of taking it away, giving it back in another weird warmode way.

The toolkit is getting so bare bones I dont even want to play the class/game anymore

[elfporn]

Ok fair enough, but they can at least replace it with something? Instead of taking it away, giving it back in another weird warmode way.

The toolkit is getting so bare bones I dont even want to play the class/game anymore

you're right about the toolkit - however, adding new stuff all the time is unsustainable longterm. Right now, we have room for new abilities in the rotation, which is great. It gives us room to move forward and add more to the class. Shiv imo, should be baked into poison knife completely.

[Deleted]

Thinking of maining rogue in BfA, what do ya'll think of 'em in the beta?

[Unholyground]

Oh shit, I totally forgot about symbiosis. Rip.

When they removed Dark Simulacrum from DK in PvE that made my heart sad, I used to use it sooooo much as a tank to sling back super op spells at bosses.

[shaunika123]

It is yes, for assa and sub. A talent never used in serious pvp by the way ...

well, that's not entirely true

it's never used mainly because MFD is just better
in a vacuum its a good pvp spell(especially WITH MFD)

plus afaik you use it vs arcane mages even now.

[Mafic]

Am I the only rogue player in history that actually likes Rtb? Come on guys getting the six role at the start of a pull feels orgasmic. I do agree though that just making Rtb act like loaded dice would help smooth out the RNG.

I liked the old RTB where you could obtain a six roll a, three roll,, a double roll and each single buff was very strong if you rolled a single. Current version of RTB without Loaded Dice simply is not playable IMO!

Current version of RTB you can only roll a five roll, two rolls and a single rolls. But single rolls are made weaker now. On beta, without Curse of Dreadblades and Loaded Dice you are simply not doing much with a RTB build using Alacrity as an example.

[Release]

I liked the old RTB where you could obtain a six roll a, three roll,, a double roll and each single buff was very strong if you rolled a single. Current version of RTB without Loaded Dice simply is not playable IMO!

Current version of RTB you can only roll a five roll, two rolls and a single rolls. But single rolls are made weaker now. On beta, without Curse of Dreadblades and Loaded Dice you are simply not doing much with a RTB build using Alacrity as an example.

Can you not roll a 6 in the beta then?

[Demeia]

Am I the only rogue player in history that actually likes Rtb? Come on guys getting the six role at the start of a pull feels orgasmic. I do agree though that just making Rtb act like loaded dice would help smooth out the RNG.

I think the joy of that was quickly swallowed by the quicksand of continuous re-rolling, turning one of the few things I hated about rogues--a maintenance buff which wasn't also a rupture like damage attack--into a continuous chain of rolling maintenance buffs until you got the right number.. By the time blizzard fixed it, most players had switched to assassin and turned us all against RTB (and in legion that meant new legos thus making a return to outlaw even less likely). Of course the mythic folk were already saying, "way, waaaay to random" in beta.

I'm probably repeating myself but I don't think RTB is particularly fun OUTSIDE, never mind in dungeons, since loaded dice requires adrenaline rush which, well, you're not likely to get a damage chain going when you're running between mobs. So loaded dice won't be up and you probably wouldn't want to waste adrenal rush on it anyway.

I'm playing with S&D now and I bet I'll be happier for it.

[RobertoCarlos]

RtB is crap and what a high school student would think of if they won a design an ability for blizzard project

[shaunika123]

name one instance in legion or bfa where an enrage dispel is useful outside of a raid.

name a situation where expending energy for a melee range amped poison application is worthwhile.(in pve)

Shiv was only ever good in wod when it applied a 90% slow.(for pve)

it definitely belongs as a pvp talent.

slowing aggramar elementals for example? it was also decent in gorefiend
and the reason there's no enrages to dispel is because they removed it :P
if soothe is coming back there's no reason shiv shouldnt

RtB is crap and what a high school student would think of if they won a design an ability for blizzard project

explain why RTB is bad without saying "because it makes dmg RNG"
because that's not ap roblem with RTB that's a problem with balancing the rolls properly.

[RobertoCarlos]

explain why RTB is bad without saying "because it makes dmg RNG"
because that's not ap roblem with RTB that's a problem with balancing the rolls properly.

Well you've already done it for me,

I actually like trying to get high ranks on logs, it makes the simplicity of pve a bit more enjoyable.

That skill can go die in a fire with poison bomb. Rng having SUCH a variance on dps is a joke, skill means fuck all anymore

[shaunika123]

Well you've already done it for me,

I actually like trying to get high ranks on logs, it makes the simplicity of pve a bit more enjoyable.

That skill can go die in a fire with poison bomb. Rng having SUCH a variance on dps is a joke, skill means fuck all anymore

yeah I thought so, so you have no idea about the difference between design and balance.

you can balance the rolls to have similar dps gains

one of the biggest problems is that they still havent got rid true bearing and the roll all 5 at once thing.

you could make outlaw 100% RNG with slice and dice all the same if you wanted to.

and you can make RTB a lot less RNG if you wanted to.

it's all about how they balance it
there's nothing wrong with RTB as a spell inherently, it adds some flavour to the rotation instead of the bland shit that SND is.
the problem is that certain rolls vastly outperform others.

if they buffed the shittier ones like jolly and buried treasure and removed TB, and made you roll 2 every time it'd be a completely fine ability