"Trials deserve loot too"

[justonetime]

Approach like this is actually one of the main reasons why USSR had collapsed. All were rewarded equally on workplace and being good did almost nothing in terms of salary and social status. Naturally, it led to stagnation and lack of initiative in workforce. Why would you bother to be better than some Boris if you will get only 10% more and some medal? This already happened with titanforged implementation, when some guilds stopped their progress after heroics and are constantly clearing them for wf/tf procs. They are not trying mythic difficulty while being vastly overgeared. Why do you even need gear if you dont try hard content?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Please provide some links to currently 11/11m guilds carried by "certain people". Can't? Another claim pulled out of ... the nether.

I write:

It works that way in Legion. But in BFA this is no longer the case. Now the guild just has to get good instead of loot funnel to certain people. It is a really good change in my opinion.

You reply:

Please provide some links to currently 11/11m guilds carried by "certain people". Can't? Another claim pulled out of ... the nether.

to , guild(s) , certain , people : These are the only words even used that are the same.

To claim from that that suddenly I said anything about 11/11 mythic -- Another claim pulled out of ... the nether
To claim from that these guilds are carried by certain people -- Another claim pulled out of ... the nether

So as we evaluate your post we see only one person "Another claim pulled out of ... the nether" and that is you. Now I understand if you add a few things suddenly it can mean that. But since they aren't there it is safe to conclude you cannot counter what is there. So you need to add things to change the meaning in a hole to change the subject. This is another strong case that the removal of ML is a great change. People like you that fabercate posts on a forum could, I do say could not are, be the type of person that would just funnel loot to your friends.

Now you could argue that I said people get funneled loot to make content easier, which guilds obviously do. Also in BFA we know that will no longer be the case. So the guild as a whole will have to get good instead of gearing primary players first to make content easier. This has nothing to do with being carried. It has everything to do with making content easier with targeted looting. Targeted looting in some, if not many, guilds works correctly. Targeted looting sadly also is toxic as fuck in others. If you have a problem with this change you should direct it at the toxic as fuck people that use ML in the wrong way. They are the reason this outstanding change needs to take place. ML is really going to be ok. We will all see it in BFA. So not only is loot distrubtion being improved but so is challenge in the game. Win win for all raiders. I never thought of it that way. This ML change just keeps getting better and better.

[Deleted]

Long troll note trying to prove you didn't suggest what you did.

It works that way in Legion. But in BFA this is no longer the case. Now the guild just has to get good instead of loot funnel to certain people. It is a really good change in my opinion.

Key part: guild has to get good instead of loot funnel.

Loot funnel is possible now more than it will be. So you suggested guilds now clear content by funneling gear "to certain people", "instead" getting good. Which means "certain people" allow guilds to not get good today. You know very well what you implied, because you are not an idiot troll. You are a smart one. Troll still. Hiding the true implication of your original post in a lengthy personal attack follow-up won't change that.
Same applies to a few other posters here.

[Arthzull]

I just do not get it these days.

This is a video game...have fun for once, stop worrying about everything, by doing that you are not having fun when you are supposed to. So what if a "Trial" gets a piece of gear and you don't. They sat at their PC just like you, spent time out of their real lives like you, what makes you think they do not deserve the gear.

This is just like the Anti-Flying rants, people want Blizzard to change the game to suit a minority that will piss off a majority of the community. Blizzard put in Pathfinder to make it better for everyone, just like they removed Master loot to make it better for everyone.

With Pathfinder the people who love flying can work towards it and Fly and the people who do not like to fly don't have to worry about it.

With Master Loot the guilds who have master loot on and have pugs or Trials in the group are at the mercy of the master looter and can spend hours in a raid without seeing a single piece of gear (and then people get mad they do not do well because they do not have the gear).

Without Master Loot everyone in a run has the same chance to get gear, everyone who spends time and the same amount of money on the *GAME* has a chance to get gear, and are not at the mercy of a master looter.

Everyone in the game deserves to have fun and progress if they want to and because of how hard it is to get into a guild these days or a run without a ridiculous requirement like asking for ilvl that is higher than the min for the run, and not letting anyone in that is at that min, it turns a fun game into boring one.

End of the day just play the game and have fun, stop worrying about Players not "Trials" or "Pugs" because end of the day everyone pays the same amount to play wow.

I have been playing WoW since Vanilla beta...and I am happy Master Loot is not in anymore.

[SirCowdog]

As I said, come BfA, a higher item level will usually mean it's an upgrade. We'll see how this pans out in practice.

I'm not in beta, but the few reports I've seen about loot has secondary stats still causing higher level items to be worse than what's equipped. I'm not sure what Blizzard has up their sleeve, but so far as we've seen it's not working.

Which is why I said I can see it happening on specific encounters. But one or two encounters that favour stacking Rogues, doesn't make it lucrative to stack and therefore gear, similar classes for the whole duration of a raid.

You wouldn't just stack rogues. You'd stack EVERY leather-wearing class(Rogues, DH, Druids, and Monks) that you could get away with. This way instead of only 1 or 2 leather drops, you potentially have 4 or more(or as many leather-wearers you can pile in), since PL will not give a leather-wearer a chainmail or plate drop.

I'm not saying it will happen every single run. But guilds are going to seek to do it more and more on bosses they have on farm. Players will either be required to maintain alts similar to with split runs. They will also likely be required to set their loot spec to whatever is most beneficial to the raid.

The point isn't necessarily that this is going to be a good practice, or efficient. It's simply that it CAN be done to brute force loot exactly how Split runs are down now. Which is pointing out one of the flaws of PL, and illustrating how it's not the perfect utopia solution that people seem to think it is.

No, I meant what I wrote and nothing else.

Then your meaning wasn't fully considered. "Exponential harder" to "force" players down a path? As though this isn't EXACTLY what Blizzard is doing? But I guess it's ok for them. Big brother knows best.

Besides the simple fact that no one in the history of WoW has EVER been "forced" to use or accept Master Loot. They might have chosen to, but nobody held a gun to their head.

- - - Updated - - -

If the vast majority of people were happy with the way loot was being managed in guilds Blizzard wouldn't have had a reason to change anything.

You're forgetting the primary reason for Acti-Blizzard to exist: Profit.

That's all the reason they'd need to try something like this.

- - - Updated - - -

This is just like the Anti-Flying rants, people want Blizzard to change the game to suit a minority that will piss off a majority of the community. Blizzard put in Pathfinder to make it better for everyone, just like they removed Master loot to make it better for everyone.

With Pathfinder the people who love flying can work towards it and Fly and the people who do not like to fly don't have to worry about it.

Pathfinder wasn't done to make it better for everyone, though. It was done for the same reason as PL: To stretch content. To make their design philosophy more streamlined. To keep people chasing a carrot. To reduce player agency, and increase Blizzard control. All of which was accomplished by the "compromise".

With Pathfinder you don't get flight until it doesn't matter: Just like with personal loot where you don't get to trade until it doesn't matter because you've already got higher gear.

Just like with Flying: The people who didn't want to fly could always do so. But they bitched and moaned about something that didn't actually effect them, which gave Blizzard the excuse they needed to push it. The people who don't like ML don't have to use it, and don't have to be affected by it. But they'd rather bitch and moan to Blizzard about how unfair and abusive it is while choosing to stick with the worst kinds of guilds, and associate with the most irresponsible raid leaders instead of forming their own group or taking the time to find decent people.

[nocturnus]

I'm not in beta, but the few reports I've seen about loot has secondary stats still causing higher level items to be worse than what's equipped. I'm not sure what Blizzard has up their sleeve, but so far as we've seen it's not working.

I'm not on beta and I haven't gathered any significant data from max level raiders either. To be honest, I doubt you have either. The only thing we know is Blizzard intentions and for what it's worth, those are good.

You wouldn't just stack rogues. You'd stack EVERY leather-wearing class(Rogues, DH, Druids, and Monks) that you could get away with. This way instead of only 1 or 2 leather drops, you potentially have 4 or more(or as many leather-wearers you can pile in), since PL will not give a leather-wearer a chainmail or plate drop.

I understood your point, I just don't believe it will be a lucrative approach for the long run because you'd probably have an utterly imbalanced raid which would slow down progress even more, if not completely stagnate it.

The point isn't necessarily that this is going to be a good practice, or efficient. It's simply that it CAN be done to brute force loot exactly how Split runs are down now. Which is pointing out one of the flaws of PL, and illustrating how it's not the perfect utopia solution that people seem to think it is.

A lot of stupid things can be done. Luckily Blizzard isn't foolish enough to base game changing mechanics and rules on exceptions. Furthermore, I haven't seen anyone claim that PL is a "perfect utopia" (this is a pleonasm by the way, since utopia are inherently perfect).

Then your meaning wasn't fully considered. "Exponential harder" to "force" players down a path? As though this isn't EXACTLY what Blizzard is doing? But I guess it's ok for them. Big brother knows best.

Blizzard is making a change to their property which might irk the few but favour the many. I do not believe, not for one second, that these ubiquitous paroxysm of anger aren't related to losing a powerful tool to control players.

Besides the simple fact that no one in the history of WoW has EVER been "forced" to use or accept Master Loot. They might have chosen to, but nobody held a gun to their head.

First of all, you don't know that for a fact and putting it into writing is an extremely ignorant thing to do since I can think of countless of situations where individuals are indirectly forced to accept a particular loot distribution system if they don't want to be removed.

What you're doing is circular reasoning; No one is forcing you to accept this change either, if it bothers you that much go play another game.

[Deleted]

There has literally never been a point in the game where more ilvl meant that piece was a 100% upgrade for every single class in the game.

What makes you think bfa will be any different.

[Lawlhero]

Forced personal loot is dumb, and people trialing should know how long it takes them to become a raider, and shouldn't expect loot over core raiders until that time has been met. It's not only the guilds responsibility for loot, but also the people applying to guilds to know how the guild they're applying for works. Not once have I ever trialed in a guild and expected anything from the raid besides building a relationship with the raid team.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Long troll note trying to prove you didn't suggest what you did.



Key part: guild has to get good instead of loot funnel.

Loot funnel is possible now more than it will be. So you suggested guilds now clear content by funneling gear "to certain people", "instead" getting good. Which means "certain people" allow guilds to not get good today. You know very well what you implied, because you are not an idiot troll. You are a smart one. Troll still. Hiding the true implication of your original post in a lengthy personal attack follow-up won't change that.
Same applies to a few other posters here.

Then when your original argument gets tossed over you turn to personal attacks against me. I understand. You are frustrated over this ML change because, maybe, your loot train could be coming to an end. I am sorry about this. But people are very toxic and the community that uses ML might be heavy in the department. I mean look at the offensive posts all over these forums. The center of almost all the arguments is either "you bad" or "you toxic" when people wanting this change keep it positive. Keeping it about loving a change and how it is going to enhance the WoW experience. This is a really great change.

[SirCowdog]

I'm not on beta and I haven't gathered any significant data from max level raiders either. To be honest, I doubt you have either. The only thing we know is Blizzard intentions and for what it's worth, those are good.

You can go to WoWhead and see that in BfA items still have secondary stats. So while items may have a lot more primary stat compared to secondary stats, what it doesn't change is that some secondary stats will be valued higher for specs than others. I'm pulling this out of my ass, but a Fury Warrior might want all haste. If he gets a drop that's higher iLVL, but that doesn't have haste, it's not going to actually be an upgrade, despite the primary stat increase, unless the iLVL increase is enough that the primary stat gain completely overpowers the secondary.

I'm not saying Blizzard can't change this before launch, but until they do, it seems fair to work under the assumption that there WILL be situations that it would continue to benefit the raid to be able to trade these types of "upgrades".

I understood your point, I just don't believe it will be a lucrative approach for the long run because you'd probably have an utterly imbalanced raid which would slow down progress even more, if not completely stagnate it.

A lot of stupid things can be done. Luckily Blizzard isn't foolish enough to base game changing mechanics and rules on exceptions. Furthermore, I haven't seen anyone claim that PL is a "perfect utopia" (this is a pleonasm by the way, since utopia are inherently perfect).

Split runs aren't exactly the smartest, most efficient things in the word either. And yet people do them because it's beneficial to their raid. You can sit here and doubt all you want, but if there's a way to manipulate PL to gain a slight edge, more and more raids will do it the higher up you go.

Anyway, no one has used the exact words "perfect utopia". That was my colorful way of describing people's attitudes, however. Maybe you haven't seen it since you seem to be arguing for PL instead of against it, but some of the responses I've gotten about PL might as well be done by people with Blizzard tattoos and dressed as murloks. It's like nothing other than PL will satisfy them. Any criticism of it is immediately attacked with lines like "PL REMOVES ALL ABUSE!" or "ML is only done by abusive toxic players!"

Blizzard is making a change to their property which might irk the few but favour the many. I do not believe, not for one second, that these ubiquitous paroxysm of anger aren't related to losing a powerful tool to control players.

Seriously? You honest to god think this is one giant bitch fest because players don't get to manipulate and control other players? WTF man...really?

First of all, you don't know that for a fact and putting it into writing is an extremely ignorant thing to do since I can think of countless of situations where individuals are indirectly forced to accept a particular loot distribution system if they don't want to be removed.

What you're doing is circular reasoning; No one is forcing you to accept this change either, if it bothers you that much go play another game.

It's not circular logic at all. Read your quote again:

"individuals are indirectly forced to accept a particular loot distribution system if they don't want to be removed." DIRECTLY implying that there is a choice in the matter. I.E.: They WANT to raid at the mythic level, so they CHOOSE to accept master loot rules.

Which is not the same as being FORCED to accept ML. They can(unlike what you just suggested I do) still play the rest of the game and all it's content, INCLUDING Mythic, without using Master Loot. All they have to do is form their own group. And according to this thread, Mythic raids are FULL of trials just waiting to escape their loot-overlords and flee to a better system of PL. So it shouldn't even be that hard to find enough people to do it.

This seems like a double-standard. Players are supposedly "forced" to use master loot, and yet refuse to use PL when it's right there waiting for them. Trials are supposedly all over the place, waiting for raid spots, but sick of Master Loot abuse. And yet somehow none of them have banded together to form a PL raid? Come on now! Really?

[Deleted]

people wanting this change keep it positive. Keeping it about loving a change and how it is going to enhance the WoW experience. This is a really great change.

We seem to be in different forums or even worlds.

[nocturnus]

You can go to WoWhead and see that in BfA items still have secondary stats. So while items may have a lot more primary stat compared to secondary stats, what it doesn't change is that some secondary stats will be valued higher for specs than others.

Straw Man. I never said items won't have secondary stats, nor have I ever implied that all secondary stats will be equally valuable.

Split runs aren't exactly the smartest, most efficient things in the word either. And yet people do them because it's beneficial to their raid.

You are contradicting yourself; bleeding-edge guilds do split raids because they are efficient and they will give them an edge in the race for world first.

You can sit here and doubt all you want, but if there's a way to manipulate PL to gain a slight edge, more and more raids will do it the higher up you go.

Another Straw Man. I never said guilds will not try to manipulate PL to their advantages. What I said is that I doubt your approach is a lucrative one.

Anyway, no one has used the exact words "perfect utopia". That was my colorful way of describing people's attitudes, however.

I was merely pointing out the that it's a pleonasm.

Maybe you haven't seen it since you seem to be arguing for PL instead of against it, but some of the responses I've gotten about PL might as well be done by people with Blizzard tattoos and dressed as murloks. It's like nothing other than PL will satisfy them. Any criticism of it is immediately attacked with lines like "PL REMOVES ALL ABUSE!" or "ML is only done by abusive toxic players!"

I don't care about those people and their fallacious arguments. Furthermore, the same can be said for the ML supporting zealots. Very few people have addressed this subject objectively and intelligently, but that's not uncommon on mmo-c and its ever growing idiot-tribe of new accounts.

Seriously? You honest to god think this is one giant bitch fest because players don't get to manipulate and control other players? WTF man...really?

Yes, "wtf...really", that's what I think. I wouldn't call it a "giant bitch fest" either, considering it's the vocal minority complaining at either side.

It's not circular logic at all. Read your quote again:

"individuals are indirectly forced to accept a particular loot distribution system if they don't want to be removed." DIRECTLY implying that there is a choice in the matter. I.E.: They WANT to raid at the mythic level, so they CHOOSE to accept master loot rules.

Which is not the same as being FORCED to accept ML. They can(unlike what you just suggested I do) still play the rest of the game and all it's content, INCLUDING Mythic, without using Master Loot. All they have to do is form their own group. And according to this thread, Mythic raids are FULL of trials just waiting to escape their loot-overlords and flee to a better system of PL. So it shouldn't even be that hard to find enough people to do it.

But somehow I'm the ignorant one here? :/

You're ignorant because you make blanket statements that are impossible to quantify; you can not claim to know, for a fact, that no one was ever forced to accept ML. Period.

It's circular logic because you're saying you're forced to accept PL, but other players aren't forced to accept ML.

Then when your original argument gets tossed over you turn to personal attacks against me.

That's just his modus operandi. Not uncommon for people of his stature. They have nothing of value to add so they lean on common fallacies like Band Wagon, Straw Man, ad hominem, Red Herring, etc. Point, smirk, mostly ignore and move on.

There is a politician asking to prove him wrong when he says "Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust because there is no proof he did." Who is ignorant? Him?

[Deleted]

You're ignorant because you make blanket statements that are impossible to quantify; you can not claim to know, for a fact, that no one was ever forced to accept ML. Period.

It's circular logic because you're saying you're forced to accept PL, but other players aren't forced to accept ML.

There is a politician asking to prove him wrong when he says "Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust because there is no proof he did." Who is ignorant? Him?

[kamuimac]

We seem to be in different forums or even worlds.

you are most likely also playing completly different game thus having different reaction to thic change - you as part of abusive toxic party are sad that blizzard is removing this toxicity from game while he someone who was abused by people like you is happy that power is taken from your hands

the more toxic people blizzard will get rid of game the better and this is making you angry.

but congrats you at least proved the internet law about bringning hitler and nazis into any topic possible

[niil945]

Out of how many progress guilds in your WoW life how many abused loot or caused loot drama (not raiders but officers)? It's 8/0 for me. Your turn. Blizz picked the right excuses to officially use as reasons for this change. Manipulation job well done.

Anecdotes are anecdotes. I'll simply say if your answer is 0 out of 8 guilds I believe that either you're not in the loop on those discussions so you're ignorant of when it happens or you're a liar.

Again, you leave out the CHOICE people have, most people using ML do not complain about it. Don't like ML, don't join the guild/raid. Additionally, ML could have gotten you loot when PL didn't "give" you anything. But we have seen choice taken out of WoW by Blizzard more and more: "Play the way we want you to play, not the way you want to play!"

Don't like that personal loot is going to be the status quo? Don't play. That's the same logic you just used right back at you. But I will say, sure...there are probably a small percent of guilds out there where every single member is happy with using ML and it sucks that those few people are going to lose the option to do so. But that's how everything works in life. It's the reason we have speed limits. It's the reason we have warnings on hot coffee. There are people who try to exploit or take advantage of things and in order to curb that behavior everyone deals with the response to that. Blame the people who abuse ML.

As for this thread(and similar ones). Half of the people posting in them have never ever raided Mythic or progressed on a 300+ wipes boss, and in essence players are naturally selfish and entitled, which combined means you will always have such arguments. Blizzard could do a change where a rabbit in Elwyn would have a chance to drop the highest ilvl loot possible in the next expansion and there would still be people defending the change.

Hell, your argument against the change is actually a reason for it. That's pretty funny.

[Monte Baldo]

Don't like that personal loot is going to be the status quo? Don't play. That's the same logic you just used right back at you. But I will say, sure...there are probably a small percent of guilds out there where every single member is happy with using ML and it sucks that those few people are going to lose the option to do so. But that's how everything works in life. It's the reason we have speed limits. It's the reason we have warnings on hot coffee. There are people who try to exploit or take advantage of things and in order to curb that behavior everyone deals with the response to that. Blame the people who abuse ML..

The difference being that CHOICE is being taken away by Blizzard. Any system can be exploited, but let people decide themselves how to handle it.

[niil945]

You're forgetting the primary reason for Acti-Blizzard to exist: Profit.

That's all the reason they'd need to try something like this.

The impact on almost the entire raiding player base is going to be negligible. It will have the most impact on highly competitive mythic guilds who are working progression bosses in the first 2 weeks of a mythic release trying to get world 1st kills as they split raid to funnel loot to mains. Which is to say this will have no substantial impact on the profit Bliz makes as the number of people this has any meaningful impact on regarding how fast they acquire loot is insignificant. Unless you're somehow of the opinion that this magical impacts Bliz's bottom line in some other way? I'm not seeing it. But I'm sure you have some conspiracy theory you want to share with us.

[Shakou]

Pathfinder wasn't done to make it better for everyone, though. It was done for the same reason as PL: To stretch content.

This is a really shitty argument that goes by nearly unchallenged and I don't even understand why because it's fucking dumb and here's why: expansions and patches have lasted less and less time as the game has gone by.

If they just wanted to stretch content they would simply not release a patch more than once every 6 months and expansions would last 3 years minimum. They wouldn't create work for themselves by designing the game world in implicit detail to make grounded mounts the idea way to travel, and you have completely lost your mind if you think the loot change in BFA means the raid tier is literally going to last longer.

No doubt it will for shit tier guilds that struggled with the last 2 bosses of a tier even with a raid that was far better geared than half the guilds that already finished the tier were at the time they finished it. In which case the game will definitely be better off without those guilds around because maybe the players in them will finally realize that they just weren't a good a guild in the first place

[niil945]

The difference being that CHOICE is being taken away by Blizzard. Any system can be exploited, but let people decide themselves how to handle it.

How exactly do you plan to exploit PL? Go ahead. I'm waiting. It won't be anywhere near as long of a laundry list of exploitation of other players that ML is right now.

[Monte Baldo]

How exactly do you plan to exploit PL? Go ahead. I'm waiting. It won't be anywhere near as long of a laundry list of exploitation of other players that ML is right now.

First: Reread, I didn't say PL can be exploited. I only indicated that if people want to exploit, they will find a way (and for PL class stacking is one way for example). Secondly: I would like to see that laundry list of yours, I only see people have personal stories.