DH - BfA

[Tech614]

Gluttony is actually the best talent in that tier defensively (Fel Dev's healing values are awful with current tuning). Given that several of the bosses in Uldir seemed to lend themselves to solo tanking in testing (which usually entails defensive play) I'd expect the talent to see a fair bit of play if nothing were to change.

(Obviously the last isn't true - there will be changes, but I'm just speaking of the current state of the talents).

Void Reaver is terrible; that's a talent that won't ever compete with LR for progression with current tuning, even if they increase the damage/healing of Soul Cleave substantially.

Gluttony is trash, the trait was trash and so is the talent. Nobody is going to rely on RNG things to survive for progression or even non progression. Fel Devastation is also trash, but actually does SOMETHING on demand, SB 10% leech is garbage now but again still does SOMETHING that you know is always there that you will have. Gluttony is going to randomly proc when you may or may not actually be able to use it making it something you can never rely on and thus garbage.

On bosses where tank deaths are a real threat for progression LR is always going to be used, when that's not the case a basically passive 8% DR is huge and is going to require significantly less outside healing. Soul Barrier is also a significant absorb now with a short CD that will be used over LR on fights where the 30s CD lines up with big hits.

LR is in no way the always go to talent, it will just be used as a crutch on fights where tank deaths are a very real threat that can cause wipes.

The biggest problem with Void Reaver is that it's a boring AF talent but 8% passive DR is huge for certain situations, especially if we come across any fights with constant steady magic damage where we literally have nothing now(along with most tanks). Soul Barrier would be great for magic damage bursts, but we really don't have shit for constant DoTs that could compare to Void Reaver.

[MookieRah]

Gluttony doesn't even really proc that much currently, even less than it did in Legion from what I have seen. It was nice as a freebie that helped smooth out damage intake here and there, but they would have to add some kind of passive for it to be considered as a talent imo.

[Khiyone]

Gluttony is trash, the trait was trash and so is the talent. Nobody is going to rely on RNG things to survive for progression or even non progression. Fel Devastation is also trash, but actually does SOMETHING on demand, SB 10% leech is garbage now but again still does SOMETHING that you know is always there that you will have. Gluttony is going to randomly proc when you may or may not actually be able to use it making it something you can never rely on and thus garbage.

On bosses where tank deaths are a real threat for progression LR is always going to be used, when that's not the case a basically passive 8% DR is huge and is going to require significantly less outside healing. Soul Barrier is also a significant absorb now with a short CD that will be used over LR on fights where the 30s CD lines up with big hits.

LR is in no way the always go to talent, it will just be used as a crutch on fights where tank deaths are a very real threat that can cause wipes.

The biggest problem with Void Reaver is that it's a boring AF talent but 8% passive DR is huge for certain situations, especially if we come across any fights with constant steady magic damage where we literally have nothing now(along with most tanks). Soul Barrier would be great for magic damage bursts, but we really don't have shit for constant DoTs that could compare to Void Reaver.

Except that in a situation like what I outlined (1-tanking) you are constantly tanking, and so you directly gain effective DS uptime from every gluttony proc even if they don't align with your CD rotation by foregoing DS usage during procs. By comparison, Fel Devastation and Spirit Bomb give an absolutely minimal amount of HPS; why would you ever choose that over increased effective DS uptime?

I think you're also heavily overestimating Soul Barrier. That talent looks good in questing gear with current tuning, but a purely AP-based shield has scaled worse than raw damage intake. Once you get actual raid gear and are doing relevant content, it certainly won't be as appealing unless it's significantly buffed in the final tuning pass compared to now (and even then it'll fall behind in future tiers, as was the case in Legion).

Gluttony doesn't even really proc that much currently, even less than it did in Legion from what I have seen. It was nice as a freebie that helped smooth out damage intake here and there, but they would have to add some kind of passive for it to be considered as a talent imo.

What? It has the exact same proc rate as it did in Legion.

[Tech614]

Always tanking does not mean a meta proc won't be wasted. There are plenty of cases where you are tanking, and need jack shit to survive it procs aaaaaaaaaaaaand it's gone 5 seconds later when a big spike was coming in at the 7 second mark. The worst part is that if gluttony procs and is wasted you know for a fact you're going to average probably 1 min before the next proc, there is so many opportunities for the ability to make a difference on the fight and it is more likely to miss all of them then make one of them.

Soul Barrier scales with both health and AP now. It's going to be a similar % of your health shield for the entire xpac instead of the just AP scaling that made it quite small comparatively halfway through legion. Correct me if I'm wrong but only the minimum amount and the soul bonus scaled with health in legion, which where very small amounts. Minimum amount doesn't even exist anymore, it's just a sizable absorb now without that gimmick hamstringing it.

[Deleted]

... you were also spamming CD with demonic, so...

The rotation was way different between the two builds...

[Deleted]

It's too late for real changes but maybe they look to other games and hero styles for dh next XP.

Something like kayn in lol could be a nice idea for Havoc.

Maybe a 3 spec or only for one spec.
Blood kayn is meta, shadow kayn out of meta.

Yeah my english sucks and my fantasy is crazy.

[Vpuh]

It's too late for real changes but maybe they look to other games and hero styles for dh next XP.

Such a feeling that the "its too late" moment for havoc came when ALFA starts.There is no real changes for spec based on comm feedback since then.They can not even make such a simple thing as to increase fury cap.This is like rets situation during alfa/beta legion when devs said that BoM and Holy Wrath is such a cool talents and all they did was buff and nerf retribution passive every patch till release.

[Ooshraxa]

Fury cap really needs to be increased. To 120 at least.

[Orloth]

Or they could decrease Fury amounts by about 25% to accomplish the same result.

[Deleted]

i am still mad because our aoe stun is going to become a disorient.....

better pick monk instead off havoc in case u wonna go myth+

[Deleted]

dh is just really really bad in bfa

[Deleted]

For mythik and pvp we loose so much and get a cs window mechanism without the resources to use it efficiently.

No slow, no range damage, no stun, no ultra burst, no self heal without our talents.

We are a bad combination from arms warrior and ww. In which comb defs would pick dh in 3s before taking a monk or warrior?
Maybe as buffbot for 5% more damage for mage or lock.....

[Muell0r]

some classes not even have all talent and we already start crying about DH.. if they Buff us everyone will keep playing DH anyways ;D

[Deleted]

some classes not even have all talent and we already start crying about DH.. if they Buff us everyone will keep playing DH anyways ;D

actually it is totally frustrating 2 see what blizz is doing with this stylish class. if only we had our chaosnova-stun back, we would be back in line. this way as allrdy mensioned everyone will go with a monk for aoe stun in pvp or with a warrior for at least the healdebuff. In high m+ where u have to do bigpulls with stun and burst, everyone will go with a ww-monk.

I am srsly feeling what they wanted to do by banning aoe stuns (as 2 strong hard cc) out off the game (dh, warrior, dk lost theirs). This would be totally fine with me, IF they did this to every class. But as things are right now ww-monk is still having his legsweep BASELINE, he can even skill into more range or a RoP!?!

in which world is this even close 2 ballance. This is just the stun thing.

Also they wanted 2 get rid off heavy cleave damage, so for example we as dhs just have felbarrage (yeah it hits hard but has a long cd), bladedance (oh wow...), eyebeam and that´s it. 2 out off 3 abilities have a pretty long cd and the 3rd is fuckin useless. Short look on frost-dk -> they can still spamm their frostscythe and do the cleavedamage out off hell. Uh-dk on the other hand is totally fair and ballanced with the cleave while dnd is out.

sometimes i feel like blizz-devs don´t even play the same game as we do.
#feelsbadman

[Deleted]

i am still mad because our aoe stun is going to become a disorient.....

better pick monk instead off havoc in case u wonna go myth+

You aren't alone here, DH's haven't been singled out or anything, my FDK lost the AoE stun, too. It seems Blizzard simply wanted to tone down AoE stuns and generally reduce the number of specs that have one. Always sucks losing something you used to have, but that's the way it is I guess!

[Deleted]

You aren't alone here, DH's haven't been singled out or anything, my FDK lost the AoE stun, too. It seems Blizzard simply wanted to tone down AoE stuns and generally reduce the number of specs that have one. Always sucks losing something you used to have, but that's the way it is I guess!

Yeah but dk has a fix slow and a root, plus he gets a op dispell. For pvp frost dk works well without a stun in pvp. Because he has massive st and ae damage with ok self heal, a tiny range damage and a dot.
We loose our range damage, our stun, our burst ae, our self heal (demonic appetite or a gap closer choice sucks), our dot and our cc CD goes up like hell. Yes monks also but he has a free talent free ae stun. Plus antiheal and slow.
Also dk gets another gap closer.
So you loose a stun but get purge and more mobility. We loose more and get nothing.

[Deleted]

Give me beta

[Fuger]

Yeah but dk has a fix slow and a root, plus he gets a op dispell. For pvp frost dk works well without a stun in pvp. Because he has massive st and ae damage with ok self heal, a tiny range damage and a dot.
We loose our range damage, our stun, our burst ae, our self heal (demonic appetite or a gap closer choice sucks), our dot and our cc CD goes up like hell. Yes monks also but he has a free talent free ae stun. Plus antiheal and slow.
Also dk gets another gap closer.
So you loose a stun but get purge and more mobility. We loose more and get nothing.

Most of the people praising Havoc played with Fel Barrage and Immo Aura exclusively. Effectively there are three talent rows in Havoc that are must picks for the spec to be even remotely interesting. In 100, Demon Blades removes play style and is still and RNG fury mechanic at that cost, Insatiable Hunger is more RNG to fury gen and isn't really bad but it competes with Immo Aura which does damage and guarantees 80 fury. In the 102 tier Fel Barrage is the only option unless you're going a momentum with consistent cleave where moving around will not kill you or the raid. Finally, 106 has Dark Slash and Cycle of Hatred is once again more rng bullshit and on average should only cut about 1 min off the meta CD. No point even talking about First Blood, blade dance is basically a defensive till it's either moved off Physical damage to chaos or First blood boosts blade dance's damage by 200-300% of attack power.

TL;DR: Havoc only has about three talents to actually choose, unless there is a massive change in the power of these talents. Immo Aura and Dark Slash should have been made baseline abilities because they would either have to be nerfed beyond half their current status or the other options be buffed to near god-hood to be acceptable.

[GamerDH]

actually it is totally frustrating 2 see what blizz is doing with this stylish class. if only we had our chaosnova-stun back, we would be back in line. this way as allrdy mensioned everyone will go with a monk for aoe stun in pvp or with a warrior for at least the healdebuff. In high m+ where u have to do bigpulls with stun and burst, everyone will go with a ww-monk.

I am srsly feeling what they wanted to do by banning aoe stuns (as 2 strong hard cc) out off the game (dh, warrior, dk lost theirs). This would be totally fine with me, IF they did this to every class. But as things are right now ww-monk is still having his legsweep BASELINE, he can even skill into more range or a RoP!?!

in which world is this even close 2 ballance. This is just the stun thing.

Also they wanted 2 get rid off heavy cleave damage, so for example we as dhs just have felbarrage (yeah it hits hard but has a long cd), bladedance (oh wow...), eyebeam and that´s it. 2 out off 3 abilities have a pretty long cd and the 3rd is fuckin useless. Short look on frost-dk -> they can still spamm their frostscythe and do the cleavedamage out off hell. Uh-dk on the other hand is totally fair and ballanced with the cleave while dnd is out.

sometimes i feel like blizz-devs don´t even play the same game as we do.
#feelsbadman

Agree. Not sure why the monk is remaining the god class. Obviously one of the devs is a monk main. Havoc is on a fine line with mythic raiding viability.... like its looking like there really won't be a reason to take one (INB4: Chaos Brand which Veng also has).. On M+ - negative. And on PvP being mostly a pure damage class is utterly revolting. It is worse enough on live to be the lowest CC damage class. So where does it fit? Really do not understand the continuation of what has been the red-headed step child treatment from legion right into BFA.

[Fuger]

Agree. Not sure why the monk is remaining the god class. Obviously one of the devs is a monk main. Havoc is on a fine line with mythic raiding viability.... like its looking like there really won't be a reason to take one (INB4: Chaos Brand which Veng also has).. On M+ - negative. And on PvP being mostly a pure damage class is utterly revolting. It is worse enough on live to be the lowest CC damage class. So where does it fit? Really do not understand the continuation of what has been the red-headed step child treatment from legion right into BFA.

You're forgetting that it's not about some classes keeping and losing their AoE stun, Warlocks had their AoE stun rolled into being baseline. The ranged dps that has a 25% raid heal, summons, gateways, banish, fear, and a battle rez got their AoE stun moved to being baseline. Meanwhile, the melee class with only two specs, mobility, worthless darkness (20% chance to absorb all damage and typically only saves 2 or so people in a raid that would have been topped by the CDs the heals are going to blow for the other 18 anyway), an AoE stun, and Imprison has it's mobility nerfed, darkness unchanged, Imprison nerfed, and AoE stun removed.