Before the storm Spoilers (The Naaru)

[KrakHed]

Then Blizzard went and homogenized everything together so now naaru just have to randomly go evil for reasons.

They're helping. The way they're helping might be stupidly longterm, the salvation they offer may be unwanted, but they're helping. That's what Naaru do. That's the way of the Light. Misguided altruism can be as dangerous as malice, especially when you feel you know better about what others need. As eternal and incredibly wise beings like the Naaru, gifted with prophecy, doubtlessly feel is true.

Pretty much Blizzard are not exactly subtle with their writing. In the new datamine Umbric states he does not trust Locus walker.

"And though I was reluctant to treat with him at first, I have learned much from the Locus-Walker. Just bear in mind that anything he offers is bound to serve his own goals in some way."

And likewise, this doesn't mean Locus-Walker is a villain. What it does mean is that he's Void. His characterization is similar to Xal'atath. Cold, curious, irreverent, amiable, and utterly untrustworthy. He's probably not even an Ethereal. But as Blizzard said, the Void is more grey.

Locus-Walker, like the Void, is driven by self-interest. He's not altruistic in the slightest. He helps others when it helps himself, but his self-interest is more enlightened than most. He understands not to present himself as a direct antagonist, and instead to guide people more subtly in pursuit of his goals and knowledge.

As a Void being, he can never be trusted implicitly. He'll always act for himself. But that doesn't mean he's a villain. Just as the Naaru's desire to help doesn't make them heroes.

Locus-Walker represents the Good of the Void. He's clever, ambitious, independent, and curious. A sly roguish sort who understands the value of playing nice and not being stupid. The latest Naaru we've seen represent the Evils of the Light, believing they know better about what we need and so coming up with "Higher being" plans to help us.

[omeomorfismo]

Also she did it pretty much just to not have a peace agreement and be free to declare war on the Alliance. She already set her eyes on Stormwind.

Sylvanas usurped Calia's kingdom originally. In fact, she did so after breaking her agreement with Garithos and especially his surviving lordaeronians. It's just that no one is left alive to know about that. But then, if someone in-universe knowing about a character's past sins mattered, you wouldn't get to villify Odyn (whose misdeeds are only seen clearly in the Chronicles) every time you get, would you?

And Calia is the only surviving member of the Menethil line. The line Sylvanas supplanted as the ruler of Lordaeron. So yes, she owes to at least warn her not to try to usurp the kingdom that's since then became hers. That would only strenghten her rule both if Calia agreed or disagreed and was killed. Call Anduin to mediate. But she showed that she's simply insane and thinks that every single Menethil is out there to get her. Good thing that she wasn't there when Arthas died or she would double-murder Terenas for spawning Arthas into existence and then diying before he could fix mistake or something.

thats not true, the kingdom was given by arthas to the burning legion, sylvanas won the successive civil war between forsaken burning legion and scourge. calia wasnt even in line of succession, she wasnt a male.

[sighy]

Also she did it pretty much just to not have a peace agreement and be free to declare war on the Alliance. She already set her eyes on Stormwind.

Sylvanas usurped Calia's kingdom originally. In fact, she did so after breaking her agreement with Garithos and especially his surviving lordaeronians. It's just that no one is left alive to know about that. But then, if someone in-universe knowing about a character's past sins mattered, you wouldn't get to villify Odyn (whose misdeeds are only seen clearly in the Chronicles) every time you get, would you?

And Calia is the only surviving member of the Menethil line. The line Sylvanas supplanted as the ruler of Lordaeron. So yes, she owes to at least warn her not to try to usurp the kingdom that's since then became hers. That would only strenghten her rule both if Calia agreed or disagreed and was killed. Call Anduin to mediate. But she showed that she's simply insane and thinks that every single Menethil is out there to get her. Good thing that she wasn't there when Arthas died or she would double-murder Terenas for spawning Arthas into existence and then diying before he could fix mistake or something.

The kingdom of Lordaeon has been dissoved by arthas. Sylvanas has been the sovereign of the land for like 20 years or something by now, even if you place it under the right of conquest, because she was the "last man standing" in the massive free for all, which was the tft Lordaeon.

[Combatbutler]

thats not true, the kingdom was given by arthas to the burning legion, sylvanas won the successive civil war between forsaken burning legion and scourge. calia wasnt even in line of succession, she wasnt a male.

Actually Arthas named Kel'thuzad regent, so if that bugger is still around somewhere or can come back he had the most legitimate claim to the throne.

[Immitis]

I'm reminded of the old (ironic) wint tweet "The old wise man bowed his head stating 'there is precisely zero difference between good things and bad things, you fucking imbecile.'"

...yeah, I'm not feeling it. Sometimes subjective morality and complexity regarding forces that work that way are novel, but sometimes I don't want it in my popcorn-entertainment-tier stories and I trust Blizzard least of all to do it properly.

"WHAT IF THE NAARU WERE ACTUALLY BAD XDDDDD" it's like an 11 year old that thinks Code Geass is high art wrote it.

the light has been shown as fallible since vanilla with the scarlet crusade, it has ALWAYS been the case that the light will bend to your will as long as you just BELIEVE you are good.

the light has never ever been shown to be this infallible goodness that can do no wrong and we had very limited exposure to the naaru and even then we know that naaru had the potential to start devouring souls and killing people if they got hurt enough.

theyre a species like everything else and theyre not infallible, morality is subjective, as long as this naaru believes its right there is nothing in the lore that is broken by it existing

[THEORACLE64]

There is no right or wrong, good or bad. How utterly boring.

Apart from the fact that Sylvanas over-reacted and massacred a bunch of people. Yeah ok...

[Venziir]

Apart from the fact that Sylvanas over-reacted and massacred a bunch of people. Yeah ok...

She killed, what she percieved to be, usurpers and traitors.

[omeomorfismo]

Actually Arthas named Kel'thuzad regent, so if that bugger is still around somewhere or can come back he had the most legitimate claim to the throne.

wasnt he proclamed regent when arthas had to go in kalimdor with archimonde (in front of which both kneel)? at this point scourge still was a burning legion "organization" and wasnt until arthas returned, and so kt finished his regency, that they broke. but then bl took control over plaguelands and the civil war started.
i mean, kt was arthas regent, but at the same time nathrezim were the ones of archimonde, so technically speaking it was bl zone.

[Deleted]

She killed, what she percieved to be, usurpers and traitors.

Calia was an usurper lol that's the thing. Even Anduin got salty with her.

[BTHSE]

wasnt he proclamed regent when arthas had to go in kalimdor with archimonde (in front of which both kneel)? at this point scourge still was a burning legion "organization" and wasnt until arthas returned, and so kt finished his regency, that they broke. but then bl took control over plaguelands and the civil war started.
i mean, kt was arthas regent, but at the same time nathrezim were the ones of archimonde, so technically speaking it was bl zone.

Arthas named Kel'thusad regent when he departed to Northrend in The Frozen Throne campaign after the scourge had betrayed the Legion and Arthas had turned his blade on the Dread Lords residing in the Ruins of Lordaeron.

[prwraith]

I don't actually understand the significance of this page. Can someone elaborate/

[omeomorfismo]

Arthas named Kel'thusad regent when he departed to Northrend in The Frozen Throne campaign after the scourge had betrayed the Legion and Arthas had turned his blade on the Dread Lords residing in the Ruins of Lordaeron.

so he was the regent of nothing. at this point the nathrezim took control of plaguelands and basically all the scourge still under mind-control.

[KrakHed]

I'm reminded of the old (ironic) wint tweet "The old wise man bowed his head stating 'there is precisely zero difference between good things and bad things, you fucking imbecile.'"

...yeah, I'm not feeling it. Sometimes subjective morality and complexity regarding forces that work that way are novel, but sometimes I don't want it in my popcorn-entertainment-tier stories and I trust Blizzard least of all to do it properly.

"WHAT IF THE NAARU WERE ACTUALLY BAD XDDDDD" it's like an 11 year old that thinks Code Geass is high art wrote it.

Allow me to explain this by talking down to you like you're a retarded baby.

The Naaru aren't bad, per se. The Naaru are sympathetic, altruistic, and benevolent. To a fault. They're also wise, eternal entities gifted with prophecy. They see from a higher perspective. They know what we need better than we do ourselves, and sometimes we need to be taught what's good for us.

Look at the Blood Elves and how M'uru saved them and brought them back to the Light. Did he ask if they wanted it before he started his plan? Did they ask for forgiveness? Did they ask for the Light to save them? Or did M'uru simply act on what he knew was best for them, even if the Blood Elves were rejecting the Light and didn't want his help?

And so we see Lightbound, helping others who don't want help. Just being more forceful. But in the end, they claim the Mag'har are damaging the world. They aren't even exterminating the Orcs or anything. From a certain perspective, those Orcs who were slain or driven offworld were just the necessary price for building a brighter future for Draenor. We've slaughtered people for less.

Should the Calia plan work, wouldn't the Forsaken be happier? Wouldn't there finally be peace? Are you so shortsighted that you'd instantly mark this as evil, just because there was a little pain and suffering at the beginning? Not all worthwhile things come easily, not all choices are sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes you have to make that sunshine and those rainbows out of blood, sweat, and tears.

[Combatbutler]

I don't actually understand the significance of this page. Can someone elaborate/

The Naaru basically set Calia up to try to support an uprising in Lordaeron, knowing she would die during the attempt, in order to bring her back from the dead as a light powered undead, she is basically a pawn to further their agenda.

[Soeroah]

I don't recall reading that page on the from page of MMO-C. Maybe the next picture function was broken? Some pages seemed out of order.

[Aucald]

I doubt it would go over that smoothly to be honest the outcasts don't strike me as people that would just roll over and give up their ways, for something many came to hate, precisely through their high arrakkoa kin, in fact the Draenei would remind them exactly of their zealous kin that tried to wipe them out for being impure. But I'd really like to know.

I would imagine there are few of the Skettis Arakkoa left on AU Draenor, to be honest. Those that didn't agree with the reunification would've gone with Iskar into Gul'dan's service and ultimately butchered at Hellfire Citadel alongside Iskar himself. The remaining handful wouldn't have made much more than a speed-bump for the forces of the Draenei and the Lightbound and with their Adherent kin helping would probably make this more of a "night of long knives" than an actual battle, per se.

[KrakHed]

But seriously. I'm just surprised people find it so hard to grasp what's going on here. Is it "good" to sit back and do nothing as the world falls apart? Is it "good" to always play gentle and nice, even when that approach is ineffectual? Is it "good" to let a meaningless cycle of hatred continue on indefinitely, when a little bloodshed now can bring about true peace in the future?

Is it "good" to wait for others to ask before lifting a finger to help? The Blood Elves wouldn't have been saved if that were the case. The Naaru here are doing something that makes sense for them.

But as creatures of the Light, they lack certain perspective.

[Dagoth Ur]

They're helping. The way they're helping might be stupidly longterm, the salvation they offer may be unwanted, but they're helping. That's what Naaru do. That's the way of the Light. Misguided altruism can be as dangerous as malice, especially when you feel you know better about what others need. As eternal and incredibly wise beings like the Naaru, gifted with prophecy, doubtlessly feel is true.

That's pretty much the vibe I am getting from Naruu too. "I'lll help you whether you want it or not" kinda deal, and I guess it makes sense now that we know what's happening with Mag'har. I still think that the further we go into this Light & Void stuff the more they'll try to reinforce this idea that what makes us mortals special snowflakes is that we're the middle ground/healthy mix of the two.

I also kinda dig this idea that Naruu take core concepts of Light such as compassion, love and unity and take them to such extremes to basically point of perverting them. Like some creepy, overly loving mom who won't let you pick your own college because she knows what's best for you. Not out of malice or anything like, but just because that's essentially how they are. All this possibly leading to idea that Light needs Void to limit it and vice versa.

But that's all hc speculation so could'be very wrong.

[Combatbutler]

But seriously. I'm just surprised people find it so hard to grasp what's going on here. Is it "good" to sit back and do nothing as the world falls apart? Is it "good" to always play gentle and nice, even when that approach is ineffectual? Is it "good" to let a meaningless cycle of hatred continue on indefinitely, when a little bloodshed now can bring about true peace in the future?

Is it "good" to wait for others to ask before lifting a finger to help? The Blood Elves wouldn't have been saved if that were the case. The Naaru here are doing something that makes sense for them.

But as creatures of the Light, they lack certain perspective.

The problem is, this is not creating peace it never will, the universe is not bound to a single path and as such whatever the naaru try to accomplish will ultimately always fail, there will never be a permanent solution, conflict will go on endlessly. There will be no peace, no understanding, it might work for a time, but ultimately it will always break down again.

Most of the time the status quo is preferable to a situation born of blind idealism. It needs to be tempered with a realistic outlook, something the naaru incapable off, due to the very nature. Just like beings of the void they can never bring peace and harmony as much as they strife for it.

For example if the Naaru had not spurned calia to action, sylvanas power could have eroded over time, now every potential dissident has died and only those fiercely loyal to her remain and it gave her ammunition to drag the whole horde into a war with the Alliance on top. All because the naaru play their own little game.

[Arrashi]

That's pretty much the vibe I am getting from Naruu too. "I'lll help you whether you want it or not" kinda deal, and I guess it makes sense now that we know what's happening with Mag'har. I still think that the further we go into this Light & Void stuff the more they'll try to reinforce this idea that what makes us mortals special snowflakes is that we're the middle ground/healthy mix of the two.

I also kinda dig this idea that Naruu take core concepts of Light such as compassion, love and unity and take them to such extremes to basically point of perverting them. Like some creepy, overly loving mom who won't let her kid leave and grow up. Not out of malice or anything like, but just because that's essentially how they are. All this possibly leading to idea that Light needs Void to limit it and vice versa.

But that's all hc speculation so could'be very wrong.

Actually naaru seem to give more of kyuubey vibe. "Just make fucking wish. Im benevolent being and there are no second bottoms".

I can bet 100$ that at one point naaru will use cattle argument.