US embassy opening in Jerusalem - Gaza violence

[Machismo]

The reactions of Europeans ITT are predictable. You can be sure of one thing, the USA will stand with Israel. Especially when those on the other side are fundamentally opposed (in their choice of philosophy) to everything the USA stands for. Basically, f with the bald eagle, you get the claws.

And lets not forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Do you really want to push Israel into a corner? Particularly consider this passage from the article:

"In 2012, in response to Günter Grass's poem "Was gesagt werden muss" ("What Must Be Said") which criticized Israel's nuclear weapons program, Israeli poet and Holocaust survivor Itamar Yaoz-Kest published a poem entitled "The Right to Exist: a Poem-Letter to the German Author" which addresses Grass by name. It contains the line: "If you force us yet again to descend from the face of the Earth to the depths of the Earth — let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness." Jerusalem Post journalist Gil Ronen saw this poem as referring to the Samson Option, which he described as the strategy of using Israel's nuclear weapons, "taking out Israel's enemies with it, possibly causing irreparable damage to the entire world."[33] "

emphasis added by me

The Jewish people will never be victims again, and they have the backing of the USA. Don't like that? Tough. The biased, loony hard-Left ICC can go f itself.

Man, you sound like the people who supported the Nazi invasion of their neighbors.

[Draco-Onis]

The reactions of Europeans ITT are predictable. You can be sure of one thing, the USA will stand with Israel. Especially when those on the other side are fundamentally opposed (in their choice of philosophy) to everything the USA stands for. Basically, f with the bald eagle, you get the claws.

And lets not forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Do you really want to push Israel into a corner? Particularly consider this passage from the article:

"In 2012, in response to Günter Grass's poem "Was gesagt werden muss" ("What Must Be Said") which criticized Israel's nuclear weapons program, Israeli poet and Holocaust survivor Itamar Yaoz-Kest published a poem entitled "The Right to Exist: a Poem-Letter to the German Author" which addresses Grass by name. It contains the line: "If you force us yet again to descend from the face of the Earth to the depths of the Earth — let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness." Jerusalem Post journalist Gil Ronen saw this poem as referring to the Samson Option, which he described as the strategy of using Israel's nuclear weapons, "taking out Israel's enemies with it, possibly causing irreparable damage to the entire world."[33] "

emphasis added by me

The Jewish people will never be victims again, and they have the backing of the USA. Don't like that? Tough. The biased, loony hard-Left ICC can go f itself.

You and ISIS seem to have a lot in common even got the whole religious text and ending the world thing down.

[Kuntantee]

The reactions of Europeans ITT are predictable. You can be sure of one thing, the USA will stand with Israel. Especially when those on the other side are fundamentally opposed (in their choice of philosophy) to everything the USA stands for. Basically, f with the bald eagle, you get the claws.

And lets not forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Do you really want to push Israel into a corner? Particularly consider this passage from the article:

"In 2012, in response to Günter Grass's poem "Was gesagt werden muss" ("What Must Be Said") which criticized Israel's nuclear weapons program, Israeli poet and Holocaust survivor Itamar Yaoz-Kest published a poem entitled "The Right to Exist: a Poem-Letter to the German Author" which addresses Grass by name. It contains the line: "If you force us yet again to descend from the face of the Earth to the depths of the Earth — let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness." Jerusalem Post journalist Gil Ronen saw this poem as referring to the Samson Option, which he described as the strategy of using Israel's nuclear weapons, "taking out Israel's enemies with it, possibly causing irreparable damage to the entire world."[33] "

emphasis added by me

The Jewish people will never be victims again, and they have the backing of the USA. Don't like that? Tough. The biased, loony hard-Left ICC can go f itself.

They will not destroy the world. This is some Nazi-level delusion of grandeur. Israel would be evaporated before doing any serious damage to world.

[JohnBrown1917]

The Jewish people will never be victims again, and they have the backing of the USA. Don't like that? Tough. The biased, loony hard-Left ICC can go f itself.

Instead you make the Palestinians the victims, good job.

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It would be real shame if Israel is not found guilty for this crime in some sort of international court.

If we bring any to the ICC in The Hague, Trump would just invade.

[Slant]

The baby wasn't rushing the border.

So, how come it was where a bullet went?

[Kujako]

So, how come it was where a bullet went?

Because (and try to stay with me here) someone fired a bullet there?

[JohnBrown1917]

I'd be impressed if you could find me an example of a European nation that doesn't have a history of anti-Semitism. If I were a Jew, I'd be pretty inclined towards having an ethnostate at this point, no matter how many assurances I got elsewhere that this time there won't be any more pogroms.

What country does not have a history of any religious suppression, you mean? Muslims in non-muslim countries, christians in non-christian countries.. or just belonging to a different sect was enough, like protestants in Roman catholic countries.

No need to single out europe.

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So, how come it was where a bullet went?

Tear gas is usually not fired with bullets.

[Scarletlion]

You got that wrong. Palestinians were the ones who were attacking. And yeah Israel is sovereign country. These lands belong to it.

Isreal occupied their lands, forced them to leave their properties, demolished their houses and built new settlements on Palestinians' lands and you claim that those lands belong to Isreal? And Israel has the right to kill anything that gets close to it? So i can break into your house with a gun in my hand and claim it as my property. But if you ever try to get back what's yours, i can put you down because i am stronger and i have the power to do it. Does it sound justifiable to you? Because that's exactly what Isreal did and doing and will be doing.

[Slant]

A few points:

1) Europeans' opinions (on how the Jewish people defend themselves ) are so much hot air. The history of Europe towards Jewish people disqualifies that continent from having an opinion that anyone of sense will listen to.

Unlike the US, Israel is sitting on our doorstep. In the mediterranean, which pretty much is our private pond. So if you think you're justified to talk crap, it's quite amusing to hear you say we're not allowed to have an opinion. Get your own shit together before you piss in other people's business. Can't elect a proper President but presumes to tell others how to run their backyard. Laughable... :P

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Tear gas is usually not fired with bullets.

Let me rephrase, how come it was where the <insert whatever killed the baby> went?

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The only intelligent question is why Israel used real bullets and killed people instead of responding it with non-lethal force. Israel's response is not even up to debate.

They're using real bullets? Finally! For decades they haven't used real bullets and what did it get them? Teenage punks throwing tear gas grenades back at them...

[Slant]

Which, of course, will never be off the table. Anti-Zionism is the raison d'être for Hamas, which more or less precludes the existence of a Jewish state. It's not like there's a compromise solution that would be anything other than an existential threat to Israel.

I know, that's why I have little to no sympathy for Palestinians. Whatever they're discussing, Israel will never compromise on its security. And neither should they. Their problem is, as small as the country is, they have exactly one shot at security. The others can just try and try again, they only have to succeed once to fuck Israel up. Israel has to succeed every single time, most likely until the end of time to survive.

Yeah, I'd be hell edgy in that situation. No jokes.

[Kiri]

This is where I'm at. What solution even looks remotely possible? The fact on the ground of the options that could plausibly exist all look completely untenable. Israel will not accept a two-state solution because it's an existential threat. Israel will not accept a one state solution with Palestinians being full, legal Israelis because Jews would immediately be a minority in their own country. What else remains? A one-state apartheid state that formally codifies Palestinians as second class non-citizens? That's hardly a solution at all.

As near as I can tell, that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that gets used by ethnic minorities in the United States. Native Americans actually have a pretty good point on this one from where I sit - the nearly complete extermination and expropriation of land is sufficiently recent that forgetting it is almost outrageous.

In any case, my goal isn't to tarnish Europe as uniquely hateful. It's not; as you note, it's pretty much just the typical history of ingroup-outgroup dynamics that are common across all human populations. My point in the post you quoted is that Gilrak's objection that Europeans aren't all responsible for Hitler is bizarrely narrow given the history of anti-semitism from the Romans on. The central point is that it's easy to see why any ethnic group would want their own secure homeland.

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Do we meaningfully disagree here? Above, I wrote:

I certainly agree that 1967 is poorly explained by religion and better explained by border disputes and pan-Arab nationalism. My reference to Islamists refers to the more modern dynamics of those that want Israel wiped from the map. These didn't emerge until the seismic shifts in Iran and Saudi Arabia well after the Six-Day War. But sure, if you wanted to argue that modern anti-Israel sentiment is driven more by ethnic strife than religious strife, I'd say that we're getting into a distinction that's barely worth making.

That's fine. However, you have to see this in the context of not just Gilrak's post, but also the post they replied to. It really matters for perception. Why your point is valid, the original post was insinuating that all of Europe, as a whole, mistreated Jews. Gilrak pointed out that Europe, not even on a nation by nation basis, cannot be seen as one uniform organism, as a lot of non-Europeans sadly oftentimes do. There were whole nations appalled by what the Germany of that time did. Sure, those nations might have had a bit of anti-semitism in their history too, but every time Europe as a whole is reduced to its worst offender, that is pretty much an insult to those who resisted and fought Hitler. Heck, there were even Germans that risked their lives trying to save Jews back then.
That is why we should not let people just surmise Europe as an almost hostile continent, like the original poster did. If someone rightfully points out that even during the worst times for European Jews, not all of Europe was against them and you post "all European countries have had some anti-semitism in their history", then that can easily be seen as supporting the original poster's intent.

The fact of the matter is that seeing "the others" as some sort of anonymous mass is simply wrong. And it is kind of the point of this threat. When you have people equating desperate, disillusioned youths with hateful terrorists, then you cannot properly discuss a complex issue. That is how dictators justify shooting at civilian protesters. "They are rebels/terrorists, therefore, I am right to put them down with overwhelming force" is an argument that no developed or "enlightened" country should ever use. But when people are trained to see "Palestinian" as "Hamas", that is what comes of it.

[Slant]

You speak of compromise. But what compromise could that even be? What is Israel truly willing to give up? What agreement could both sides agree on and would withstand extremists on either side?
I can't really think of one, which is the sad thing. Most of the time these days when people speak of compromise, what it really means is "Take what the stronger one offers and shut up", not actual compromise.

Deescalation works. Northern Ireland is one such example. Germany another. Vietnam is pretty fucking happy once the US fucked off to pester someone else. Palestinians might hate the idea, but eventually they'll have to figure out that Israel could mean... Israel AND the West Bank AND Gaza. Sure, they'll be citizens of second class today, but if they actually work with the system, get themselves educated out of the stone age, put religion where it belongs, in the fucking Mosque and not Parliament, then they could have a pretty awesome life. Ask the Arabs that do already live in Israel. There's plenty of Muslim citizens in Israel, it's not like Israel hates Muslims in general.

And there is guilt by association. Hamas doesn't survive on hatred alone. They are backed by everyone in those "prisons", which... btw, is a super stupid comparison. It's not a prison, it's an occupied zone. Why? Because Israel WON A WAR OVER IT. They should feel lucky Israel lets them live there, in most European cases you were subjugated or chased away properly.

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The reactions of Europeans ITT are predictable. You can be sure of one thing, the USA will stand with Israel. Especially when those on the other side are fundamentally opposed (in their choice of philosophy) to everything the USA stands for. Basically, f with the bald eagle, you get the claws.

I am European, I support Israel. You'd best unstick your head and get with the program. Unlike you, however, I have a somewhat informed opinion and don't just go "YEAH PATRIOTISM I SUPPORT ISRAEL BECAUSE THAT IS THE AMERICAN THING TO DO!"

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Because (and try to stay with me here) someone fired a bullet there?

Where is "there"? Do you often take babies to events like rushing a border, rioting and lobbing projectiles at armed forces? I'd say you'd be the baby killer then, not the armed forces. :P

[Kujako]

Where is "there"? Do you often take babies to events like rushing a border, rioting and lobbing projectiles at armed forces? I'd say you'd be the baby killer then, not the armed forces. :P

"there" in this case was a tent encampment. I know you're trying to say that everyone killed or hurt was a violent protestor, but the facts just don't back you up.

[Slant]

Because, shocking, Israel also shoots towards non-rushing people?

IDF usually fires gas grenades into rioting mobs. That is hardly a surprise and every Palestinian knows that before attending their favourite national pasttime. Taking a baby there is willfully exposing it to a potentially hazardous situation, most likely to exploit the death at a later time. It's not like Palestinians aren't too ashamed to do some wailing and killing their children to gain more attention.

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"there" in this case was a tent encampment. I know you're trying to say that everyone killed or hurt was a violent protestor, but the facts just don't back you up.

I'm willing to bet money that the tent encampment was within eyesight of the border and quite probably had no business being there. Do you guys not value law and order at all? Are you seriously going all emotional with the argument that Palestinians should be allowed to do just anything? Because... life's unfair to them? Is that really the sole basis of your side? Pathetic.

[Breccia]

Have we mentioned that the UN Security Council fielded a motion to investigate the 58 deaths of protestors?

Have we mentioned the US blocked it?

It might have something to do with this UN resultion that prevents countries from putting embassies in Jerusalem.

Which the US just did.

[Slant]

They should be allowed to do anything because Israel is illegally occupying their lands.
Nobody felt bad for all the attacks against the Germans during the Nazi-occupation, so please don't let your xenophobia justify this new fascist conquest.

Xenophobic? Are you mad? Both of them are foreigners to me, even if I was Xenophobic, it would have no bearing on this discussion. Jesus, you can't get much more ad hominem. You're better than that, Kangodo. :P

And how is it any more or less illegal than any occupation? Israel occupied those zones after they won a pretty fucking successful defensive war. Nobody disputed that they had the right to defend themselves and nobody, not even Egypt or Jordan, wants those areas back. THAT, my friend, is the cold, hard truth. Nobody wants the Palestinians, not Israel, not Egypt, not Jordan. The border to Egypt is probably even more closed than the one to Israel.

But hey, you wanted to spit some half-knowledge about WW2 into my direction? If Palestinians are able to mount a proper counter attack, I'd grab some popcorn and wish them all the best. As it stands, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever changing the situation through violence. So why keep doing it?

In conclusion, I think Palestinians must have a genetic defect making them pathologically stupid. I have no other sensible explanation for the continued futile acts of violence that hurt themselves more than Israelis.

Go on, call me a Xenophobe again. I got shivers when you did that.

[Acidbaron]

What country does not have a history of any religious suppression, you mean? Muslims in non-muslim countries, christians in non-christian countries.. or just belonging to a different sect was enough, like protestants in Roman catholic countries.

No need to single out europe.

While religion plays a role it has more to do with money. Catholic banks, like muslim ones now were not allowed to borrow with interest. Jewish however were and there lies the root of the conflicts surrounding jews, starting back a long time ago.

[Kiri]

Deescalation works. Northern Ireland is one such example. Germany another. Vietnam is pretty fucking happy once the US fucked off to pester someone else. Palestinians might hate the idea, but eventually they'll have to figure out that Israel could mean... Israel AND the West Bank AND Gaza. Sure, they'll be citizens of second class today, but if they actually work with the system, get themselves educated out of the stone age, put religion where it belongs, in the fucking Mosque and not Parliament, then they could have a pretty awesome life. Ask the Arabs that do already live in Israel. There's plenty of Muslim citizens in Israel, it's not like Israel hates Muslims in general.

And there is guilt by association. Hamas doesn't survive on hatred alone. They are backed by everyone in those "prisons", which... btw, is a super stupid comparison. It's not a prison, it's an occupied zone. Why? Because Israel WON A WAR OVER IT. They should feel lucky Israel lets them live there, in most European cases you were subjugated or chased away properly.

The thing is that many in Israel do not want a one-state solution. That is not on the table. So you so naively stating that it is just Palestinians not wanting it for some religious reason is kind of wrong. The Jewish population would suddenly be in the minority if they just incorporated these people.
And yes, it is a prison. These people are not allowed to freely leave, trade or most other forms of self-determination. What else is it? Plus, it was conquered by Israel, but not from Palestines but from other countries already occupying it.
And no, there was no war in Europe after WWII where people were subjugated or chased away properly. That is kind of what we all agreed upon after that war.

Your accusation that 'everyone' is backing Hamas is pretty bold.

[Realitytrembles]

Unlike the US, Israel is sitting on our doorstep. In the mediterranean, which pretty much is our private pond. So if you think you're justified to talk crap, it's quite amusing to hear you say we're not allowed to have an opinion. Get your own shit together before you piss in other people's business. Can't elect a proper President but presumes to tell others how to run their backyard. Laughable... :P

You misunderstand. You can have the opinion, Americans just won't give a crap to listen.

[ati87]

I know, that's why I have little to no sympathy for Palestinians. Whatever they're discussing, Israel will never compromise on its security. And neither should they. Their problem is, as small as the country is, they have exactly one shot at security. The others can just try and try again, they only have to succeed once to fuck Israel up. Israel has to succeed every single time, most likely until the end of time to survive.

Yeah, I'd be hell edgy in that situation. No jokes.

The only reason why security of Israel is in any question is because they acts like the average Saudi oil prince or like a Kardashian from the moment the Jewish settlers arrived.