Should fakers go on ignore list?

[LightClaw]

This is the thread of pure cancer players.

The correct way to play wow is to build a community and help others learn fights. Demanding AOTC or first boss on mythic or boot is toxic and antisocial and destroys the game.

I'd throw everyone advocating these tactics on ignore. Its pure trash.

I don't understand how verifying people have completed an easier difficulty to progress to a harder one is toxic lol. Like I understand people being upset about needing AoTC to do HC as it is basically asking you to complete the content before you can complete the same content but this is a harder difficultly compared to an easier one....

@OP Sounds like you guys have extremely reasonable expectations for a mythic PUG in my opinion.

[Primemrip]

Sounds like you were looking for a different thread?

Was just making a joke based on all the ML talks going around.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

This is the thread of pure cancer players.

The correct way to play wow is to build a community and help others learn fights. Demanding AOTC or first boss on mythic or boot is toxic and antisocial and destroys the game.

I'd throw everyone advocating these tactics on ignore. Its pure trash.

Kolee #11232

Go ahead and put me on ignore, because I think asking for AotC - that you've done the fights on heroic - is a perfectly logical requirement to begin mythic. And I suspect that 99% of mythic raid groups will tell you the same, unless you are a guild mate they are trying to help.

- - - Updated - - -

What is wrong is having to fake achievements.

Faking achievements = lying. Better to be honest about your experience and earn your achievements, imho.

[Deleted]

Kolee #11232

Go ahead and put me on ignore, because I think asking for AotC - that you've done the fights on heroic - is a perfectly logical requirement to begin mythic. And I suspect that 99% of mythic raid groups will tell you the same, unless you are a guild mate they are trying to help.

- - - Updated - - -

Faking achievements = lying. Better to be honest about your experience and earn your achievements, imho.

Honestly as a very good player if I don't own that achievement to get into a group like heroic archimonde I'll fake the achievement and usually perform as good as everyone else. Having to have killed something before in order to get invited to groups is a dumb requirement, especially when it doesn't reflect your competence. I'd rather be required to link any achievement proving that, but pug leaders are sometimes narrow-minded... so I just help them get to the right conclusion by bending the truth a little: they want me in their groups.

[Mlz]

Honestly as a very good player if I don't own that achievement to get into a group like heroic archimonde I'll fake the achievement and usually perform as good as everyone else. Having to have killed something before in order to get invited to groups is a dumb requirement, especially when it doesn't reflect your competence. I'd rather be required to link any achievement proving that, but pug leaders are sometimes narrow-minded... so I just help them get to the right conclusion by bending the truth a little: they want me in their groups.

The problem is that every Joe from trade thinks they are better than average and can carry their weight and what not. In reality, you can tell almost instantly when a faker slipped through as they die to everything or if they don't, they are pushing upper grey percentiles at most.

[Battlebeard]

If you've never done something before, don't lie and say you have. What's complicated about that?

Well, if you never have done anything, how can you possibly get invited and actually do it? Why keep the game restricted. "You can't kill this boss unless you already killed this boss" logic makes no sense, cause everyone has to have a first kill some time. People fake achievements cause if they don't, they never get the chance. If people never lie and are honest and non-complicated, they will never see the raid, even if they are amazing raiders.

And no, leading the group to do the content is not a fair requirement. There can only be 1 leader and to ask EVERYONE to lead, how would that even work. Not every is a leader character and again, if a normal size raid is 20man, it means 1 leader and 19 members, so requiring everyone to be that 1 of 19 is not realistic. People who say "just lead your own group" put too much emphasis on "just" and have never been in the situation many are in (as in not getting invited).

And lets face it, World of Warcraft is DYING (sadly), there is no ignoring that. There are no longer 10+ million active players, and most realms have gone to Low. Just sort EU realms by population, we see only 4, FOUR High populated realm. Back in the day, there were over 20 with High, if not more. The people are dropping and STILL Blizzard have systems that excludes people. It's not a dead game, but to have people getting declined 24/7 will have them look for other games. In order to secure the future of this game, they need a system that gets MORE people involved in the content, not less. There are so many ways to track what a person HAVE done, with armory, wowprogress, ingame linking of achivements etc, that people get blinded what people CAN do.

Only Blizzard can kill WoW and they actively need to do something to get more people involved in the content. The "link curve" is a cancer that needs to be removed from existence.

[Deleted]

The problem is that every Joe from trade thinks they are better than average and can carry their weight and what not. In reality, you can tell almost instantly when a faker slipped through as they die to everything or if they don't, they are pushing upper grey percentiles at most.

Yeah... I wish there was some clear indicator of competence that didn't require having done what one wants to do.

[Akka]

Any raider who refuses to run M+ despite it giving upgrades that would benefited the raid during progression because "they hate it" is no "competent" raider

Some people play for fun, and some people find M+ not fun.
Shocking, I know.
Worse : some people know how to play even without finding M+ fun and not doing them.

Now I'll let you lie down so you can endure all this shock.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

you all really put too much personal stock in this game, very sad.

give me your lunch money.

[Akka]

Raiding: More toxic than the Toxic Crusader's underpants.

and people wonder why LFR got made, or why raiding has never been especially popular! (or why MMORPGs are pretty much on a spiral downward in popularity, and have been since about 2011!) Community freaking sucks. Why even play a game like this when you can get a lot of the core conceits from other genres without having people telling you "nuh uh!". Only thing you really lose is that core grouping aspect. MMORPG's desperately need a changeup.

I'd say it's actually the opposite, LFG/LFR and increased rewards are what caused this toxicity to expand (not to appear out of thin air, but to become so commonplace).

To keep it short :

- Increased ilvl makes for gear-centric requirements.
When ilvl gap were relatively small, a good player could easily outclass an average or bad one, even with inferior gear. It meant it was both much more important AND much more noticeable to grab a good player than a well-geared one. With today's gear (and artifact levels and so on) being able to increase output by whole orders of magnitudes, asking for ilvl first is not just the easiest way, but sadly also the actually functional one.

- Higher rewards (and easier clearing) all around, cause higher requirements. That's simple law of demand and offer. If everyone can manage to easily grab ilvl X gear, then people will ask for X or even X + 5. Even if the raid itself gives X - 10 ilvl.
When the only way to grab better gear was to clear a raid, and it was uncommon to clear said raid, then people HAD to take people who were actually at the gear and progression intended for said raid (and not two tiers above). Now that you can easily get better rewards and that PuG is all around, the expectations are raised and it's not about progression, it's about "fast clear".

[rda]

Some people play for fun, and some people find M+ not fun.
Shocking, I know.
Worse : some people know how to play even without finding M+ fun and not doing them.

Now I'll let you lie down so you can endure all this shock.

To be fair, there are things to learn from playing M+. I did learn a bit from playing M+ recently, being a long-time player before, with realm-first raid kills and high PVP ranks in many seasons.

However, 99% of what you learn from there is which packs you can pull and how and which you can avoid and how and how the mob modifiers affect that. Which is kind of boring and inapplicable to anything else besides those particular M+ instances. (The remaining 1% was a refresher on what spec now does what. This knowledge can and does get stale, M+ is one way to keep it up to date.)

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Well, if you never have done anything, how can you possibly get invited and actually do it?

???? The same way everyone else does? Join a group of people who haven't done it and want to? I mean, how do you think those first kills happen? You think anyone gets the achievement by immaculate creation?

[Battlebeard]

???? The same way everyone else does? Join a group of people who haven't done it and want to? I mean, how do you think those first kills happen? You think anyone gets the achievement by immaculate creation?

Well, there are some problems with "just join a group". First off, even the very first week of content, people demand curve or at least normal clear achiv. This goes for the majority of groups, and unless you clear it day 1, you are pretty much screwed. There are not many "no requirement" groups to even join.

Secondly, and most important, I believe people who invest time to raid, and who has invested lots of time in previous tiers and expansions can have some demands. It's not realistic, as an example, that an ex-mythic raider should even do normal mode. Once a mythic raider, always a mythic raider by heart. If someone cleared a raid on mythic sometime, even expansions ago, they have the potentional to raid mythic today as well. Same for heroic raiders.

Personally, I only raid heroic in Legion and the last time I did Mythic was in WoD, but I am not looking for mythic groups atm, my IRL won't allow that time invenst. But since I raided heroic this expansion, for BFA, I expect to move directly into Heroic raids (if I get enough ilvl, I realize ANY gear won't do) and this is not a strange demand. This has been my only raid demand this expansion and it worked fine upto Antorus. I moved from EN Heroic -> NH Heroic -> Tomb Heroic more or less. I did some normal bosses to get some set-bonuses, and later for xmog etc, but more or less I moved from heroic mode to heroic mode, like you are suppose to do.

Heroic isn't an impressive feat itselfs, but that furthermore proves my point. Heroic raiders should not have to do normal and mythic raiders should not have to do heroic, (AGAIN IF THEIR ILVL IS SOMEWHAT OKEY, I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH).

So, IF you have a Curve or Cutting edge from previous raids, that should be absolutely everything you need to get invited to Heroic raids (in my example), becuase I have proved over and over that I managed the general difficulty of atleast Heroic mode.

[Aregna]

Waste of time people..

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Well, there are some problems with "just join a group". First off, even the very first week of content, people demand curve or at least normal clear achiv. This goes for the majority of groups, and unless you clear it day 1, you are pretty much screwed. There are not many "no requirement" groups to even join.

Secondly, and most important, I believe people who invest time to raid, and who has invested lots of time in previous tiers and expansions can have some demands. It's not realistic, as an example, that an ex-mythic raider should even do normal mode. Once a mythic raider, always a mythic raider by heart. If someone cleared a raid on mythic sometime, even expansions ago, they have the potentional to raid mythic today as well. Same for heroic raiders.

Personally, I only raid heroic in Legion and the last time I did Mythic was in WoD, but I am not looking for mythic groups atm, my IRL won't allow that time invenst. But since I raided heroic this expansion, for BFA, I expect to move directly into Heroic raids (if I get enough ilvl, I realize ANY gear won't do) and this is not a strange demand. This has been my only raid demand this expansion and it worked fine upto Antorus. I moved from EN Heroic -> NH Heroic -> Tomb Heroic more or less. I did some normal bosses to get some set-bonuses, and later for xmog etc, but more or less I moved from heroic mode to heroic mode, like you are suppose to do.

Heroic isn't an impressive feat itselfs, but that furthermore proves my point. Heroic raiders should not have to do normal and mythic raiders should not have to do heroic, (AGAIN IF THEIR ILVL IS SOMEWHAT OKEY, I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH).

So, IF you have a Curve or Cutting edge from previous raids, that should be absolutely everything you need to get invited to Heroic raids (in my example), becuase I have proved over and over that I managed the general difficulty of atleast Heroic mode.

Has not been my experience. I have never lied to get into a group - and that's what faking is - lying - and I have never had any problem finding groups to achieve my goals in game.

Preach, btw, did his own experiment. Set up a brand new account, no friends, no guild, and he achieved AotC and Keystone Master within 2 weeks of reaching 110.

[Battlebeard]

Has not been my experience. I have never lied to get into a group - and that's what faking is - lying - and I have never had any problem finding groups to achieve my goals in game.

Preach, btw, did his own experiment. Set up a brand new account, no friends, no guild, and he achieved AotC and Keystone Master within 2 weeks of reaching 110.

Well, "lie" is a strong word. I truly believe there are certain cases where faking an achievement is absolutely justified. If a person has a background of raiding and is quite capable of handling the current raid (but lacks the curve) and also know tactics from videos, then it's wrong that person doesn't get invited, hence, faking achievement to get in is okey, since that person will most likely not cause any trouble or fail any tactics. And ofc, there is the other case, when a complete noob, so to speak, fakes an achievement, gets invited and fail everything.

And that's kind of the point, anyone can fake it and anyone can also buy a boost. A bought curve means as little as a faked one IF the buyer is a terrible player. But if the player is amazing, why should he/she have to pay money, when he/she can just link a fake achievement, get invited and perform really well?

And this is the core problem, achievements. People rely 100% on achievements today when they actually mean NOTHING. Just imagine since the implementation of achievements in WotLK, how many superb players that has been declined cause they don't have an achievement, and how many completely terrible players who got invited with a bought achievement. It's so crazy unfair and the system really need to change.

[ID811717]

First off, even the very first week of content, people demand curve or at least normal clear achiv.

The raids that require curve in the first week are not meant for you. They are mostly for alts of mythic raiders that already cleared HC on mains right away. There were very few raids like that in the first week of Antorus. Whereas the raids that require a normal achievement to join a HC raid... It would be insane to do otherwise.

Secondly, and most important, I believe people who invest time to raid, and who has invested lots of time in previous tiers and expansions can have some demands. It's not realistic, as an example, that an ex-mythic raider should even do normal mode. Once a mythic raider, always a mythic raider by heart. If someone cleared a raid on mythic sometime, even expansions ago, they have the potentional to raid mythic today as well. Same for heroic raiders.

Personally, I only raid heroic in Legion and the last time I did Mythic was in WoD, but I am not looking for mythic groups atm, my IRL won't allow that time invenst. But since I raided heroic this expansion, for BFA, I expect to move directly into Heroic raids (if I get enough ilvl, I realize ANY gear won't do) and this is not a strange demand. This has been my only raid demand this expansion and it worked fine upto Antorus. I moved from EN Heroic -> NH Heroic -> Tomb Heroic more or less. I did some normal bosses to get some set-bonuses, and later for xmog etc, but more or less I moved from heroic mode to heroic mode, like you are suppose to do.

Heroic isn't an impressive feat itselfs, but that furthermore proves my point. Heroic raiders should not have to do normal and mythic raiders should not have to do heroic, (AGAIN IF THEIR ILVL IS SOMEWHAT OKEY, I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH).

So, IF you have a Curve or Cutting edge from previous raids, that should be absolutely everything you need to get invited to Heroic raids (in my example), becuase I have proved over and over that I managed the general difficulty of atleast Heroic mode.

Sure, but with this attitude your place is in a typical HC raiding guild that gets curve 12-16 weeks after the release of a raid tier. It took me 2-3 hours on the release day to pug NHC Antorus and then another 8-10 hours over the first 3 days of the tier to pug HC Antorus. I would never invite (the unexperienced version of) you to my raid. My goal is to be efficient - come in prepared, make sure everyone knows tactics and have experience with the basic version of the raid, and kill all bosses. I am not interested to observe people randomly die to felhounds because they saw the encounter for the first time and didn't realize they stood in fire.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Well, "lie" is a strong word. I truly believe there are certain cases where faking an achievement is absolutely justified.

lie
lī
noun
noun: lie; plural noun: lies
1. an intentionally false statement

• used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.

verb
verb: lie; 3rd person present: lies; past tense: lied; past participle: lied; gerund or present participle: lying
1. tell a lie or lies.
"why had Wesley lied about his visit to Philadelphia?"
synonyms: tell an untruth, tell a lie, fib, dissemble, dissimulate, misinform, mislead, tell a white lie, perjure oneself, commit perjury, prevaricate; More
get oneself into or out of a situation by lying.
"you lied your way on to this voyage by implying you were an experienced sailor"
(of a thing) present a false impression; be deceptive.

e.g. telling a raid leader you have an achievement you don't have.

It may be a strong word, but that's exactly what it is. You are lying about your experience. Workplaces fire you when they learn you have lied on your application. As a RL, I would put you on ignore so as not to make the mistake of inviting you again.

[Battlebeard]

lie
lī
noun
noun: lie; plural noun: lies
1. an intentionally false statement

• used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.

verb
verb: lie; 3rd person present: lies; past tense: lied; past participle: lied; gerund or present participle: lying
1. tell a lie or lies.
"why had Wesley lied about his visit to Philadelphia?"
synonyms: tell an untruth, tell a lie, fib, dissemble, dissimulate, misinform, mislead, tell a white lie, perjure oneself, commit perjury, prevaricate; More
get oneself into or out of a situation by lying.
"you lied your way on to this voyage by implying you were an experienced sailor"
(of a thing) present a false impression; be deceptive.

e.g. telling a raid leader you have an achievement you don't have.

It may be a strong word, but that's exactly what it is. You are lying about your experience. Workplaces fire you when they learn you have lied on your application. As a RL, I would put you on ignore so as not to make the mistake of inviting you again.

Well, per definition, yes it's a lie. But are lies always bad? Can you say that no lies are EVER justified? To give an oversimplified example, 2 guys apply to your group. Guy 1 has the achievement (got boosted or something), but is a terrible player, and Guy 2 don't have an achievement, so he links a fake achievement. You have only 1 spot and you take Guy 2 (who faked) and Guy 1 get invited to another group. That other group fails and disband cause Guy 1 is so terrible and keep wiping the group, while Guy 2, that you invited, turned out to be a god at the game, who just lacked current achievement and you oneshot everything and have a sucessful raid.

Now, was his fake achiv, his lie, not justified? If you had gone by "the truth" you would have got Guy 1, who was in this scenario, awful and if Guy 2 hadn't lied, you never would have experienced his awesomeness.

This also is an example how flawed achievements can be and that faking achivs can actually have good outcomes.

[NatePsy]

I mean if they're fakers but can pull their weight and not die to stupid shit, there's no sense booting them out. If they're the kind that wipes to dumb shit and doesn't do enough dps? For sure, get out.