Poll: Would You Support Sylvanas after Before the Storm?

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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Sooo... people like to talk about Sylvanas and how "free will" is the cornerstone of the Forsaken, but then I saw this line on a picture on the front page: "We never asked to be brought back"
    To add to what @Combatbulter already said, the concept of free will doesn't apply to corpses because corpses don't have the capacity to have any will, free or otherwise. How this still eludes the more brilliant people on this forum when it gets hammered every time one of you brings this equally brilliant tangent is beyond me. They get free will once undead and can return to the grave, join the Forsaken or go their way. And it's not like there's anything here that shows this Forsaken to be one raised by the Val'kyr rather than the Scourge back in the day.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  2. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightspark View Post
    Well, there's undead who asked to be euthanised later in their "lives", so they could do just that as well...
    Yes, you mean like Sylvanas? ^^ Well, maybe they will opt for it, but hadn't had time to think about it until that point. Now they talk about it and come to a conclusion after talking. I mean, we always want to see stuff ingame instead of in a book, now they're delivering ^^

  3. #803
    Bloodsail Admiral Psychotrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Which you know, fully contradicts forsaken starting area. But oh well, blizzard writing at its finest.
    I figured they were talking about being raised by the scourge to begin with. Do we have any indication these are post Wrath forsaken?

    I mean, I'm more than willing to shit on Blizzard's writing, just want to make sure we're shitting on them for the right reasons.
    Some people really like flavor. Occasionally subsisting on nutrient paste just doesn't feel the same as eating a steak. I get that flavor isn't for everyone, but I doubt removing all cosmetic indicators from the game would be appealing either. Nobody want to log in, queue to fight modestly sized blue checked box boss #7, initiate combat using an attack sequence of abilities 1-7 with a 13 beat repeat coda intermittently, and collect item level 630 slot 7 gear either.

  4. #804
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    I figured they were talking about being raised by the scourge to begin with. Do we have any indication these are post Wrath forsaken?

    I mean, I'm more than willing to shit on Blizzard's writing, just want to make sure we're shitting on them for the right reasons.
    Then they are even more welcome to pull the trigger. Why would they hang out for so long only to whine is pretty much contradicting to what we saw in starting zone when people unhappy with undeath just off themselves.

  5. #805
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    To add to what @Combatbulter already said, the concept of free will doesn't apply to corpses because corpses don't have the capacity to have any will, free or otherwise.
    And that argument goes completely down the drain when you realize we're talking about a world setting where seeing and calling on spirits of the dead is practically commonplace.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  6. #806
    So from the Horde War campaign Part 3 it's pretty clear now that...

    1. The Forsaken don't actually have free will. At the very least it's very limited, or just an illusion. When they're raised it compels them to follow, serve and obey. Even Voss, the one example people have to say that undead can have their own lives free from the Forsaken is now their biggest cheerleader and acting like something was wrong with her mind at the time because she was striving to fight it.

    2. Horde honour is officially and cannonically dead. The Horde are breaking into old Alliance tombs in order to find the bodies of their greatest war heroes to raise into undeath to serve them as slaves. I can't see how any of the other Horde races can have fallen so much that they think this is ok. Seriously? Orcs are OK now with desecrating fallen war heroes that died in battle?
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2018-05-21 at 07:04 PM.
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  7. #807
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Oh are we back to ignoring established lore again? Oh goody.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And that argument goes completely down the drain when you realize we're talking about a world setting where seeing and calling on spirits of the dead is practically commonplace.
    If forsaken don't have free will, why would sylvanas bother to kill them, since treachery would be impossible, why is it mentioned several times, that they follow out of fear or loyalty. The forsaken having no free will makes zero sense. It goes against plenty of major plot lines.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    So from the Horde War campaign Part 3 it's pretty clear now that...

    1. The Forsaken don't actually have free will. At the very least it's very limited, or just an illusion. When they're raised it compels them to follow, serve and obey. Even Voss, the one example people have to say that undead can have their own lives free from the Forsaken is now their biggest cheerleader and acting like something was wrong with her mind at the time because she was striving to fight it.
    There was something wrong with her mind in WoD. She literally acted like she was batshit insane.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Sooo... people like to talk about Sylvanas and how "free will" is the cornerstone of the Forsaken, but then I saw this line on a picture on the front page: "We never asked to be brought back"
    Did you ask to be born or was life forced on you?

  11. #811
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If forsaken don't have free will, why would sylvanas bother to kill them, since treachery would be impossible, why is it mentioned several times, that they follow out of fear or loyalty. The forsaken having no free will makes zero sense. It goes against plenty of major plot lines.
    It's not about "not having free will", it's about "not being allowed to exercise free will."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Did you ask to be born or was life forced on you?
    Yeah, comparing a natural process to a completely unnatural process, that damns you to an existence of suffering and likely denies you rest after you die again. Good going.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not about "not having free will", it's about "not being allowed to exercise free will."
    You targeted the actual issue. Most people can't seem to grasp it.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah, comparing a natural process to a completely unnatural process, that damns you to an existence of suffering and likely denies you rest after you die again. Good going.
    Everyone is damned on death unless Odyn decides to yell Valour in your direction. This is pretty much stated in Chronicles 1. A huge amount of undead seem to like their state. No one talking about suffering with freewilled undead outside of Death Knights who had their own way of being raised that's different to forsaken.

    Also there's nothing natural about fleshy humans, gnomes, dwarves in wow. They're corrupted titan constructs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    You targeted the actual issue. Most people can't seem to grasp it.
    But they are allowed to exercise free will.

    Or is betraying your leader and joining a usurper an ok thing now as long as the person being usurped is Sylvanas because we must hate undead for them being undead.

  14. #814
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Everyone is damned on death unless Odyn decides to yell Valour in your direction. This is pretty much stated in Chronicles 1. A huge amount of undead seem to like their state. No one talking about suffering with freewilled undead outside of Death Knights who had their own way of being raised that's different to forsaken.
    I never said all forsaken hate their state. I'm just saying it's an unnatural process that basically damns your soul to nearly eternal suffering.

    Also there's nothing natural about fleshy humans, gnomes, dwarves in wow. They're corrupted titan constructs.
    I'm talking about birth. Forsaken are literally walking rotting corpses.

    But they are allowed to exercise free will.

    Or is betraying your leader and joining a usurper an ok thing now as long as the person being usurped is Sylvanas because we must hate undead for them being undead.
    If not wanting to hate your family and actually wanting to be with them means "betraying your leader", I'm not sure if said leader is worth following. Also, "usurper"? If anything, Sylvanas is the "usurper" considering she has no right of claim at all to the knigdom of Lordaeron.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Sorry, why is that a bad thing?

    If Sylvanas' goal is to protect her people, then having them be accepted by the Alliance and reintegrate into their former society should have her holding fireworks festivals in the courtyard of Loredaeron.

    The only redeeming feature that remains of Sylvanas that all the fanbois cling to is that Sylvanas will "do anything" to protect her people. This is literally the exact opposite of that. Her people finally got a chance at true redemption, a return to relative peace, reuniting with their families, and she not only quashed that possibility but outright murdered them.
    The thing is though, unless i am mistaken or it has been retconned... her original goal was to kill arthas and use the forsaken as "Arrows in her quiver". Then cataclysm came around and of course she saw Garrosh throwing her people to die so his people didn't (or whatever it was i don't remember the exact words of her vision)... However they BARELY built up that side of things and then we were and are back to Sylvanas trying to do ANYTHING to prevent her own *true* death, even to the detriment of her own "people" whom she apparently is believed to love and adore and want to protect.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    If not wanting to hate your family and actually wanting to be with them means "betraying your leader", I'm not sure if said leader is worth following. Also, "usurper"? If anything, Sylvanas is the "usurper" considering she has no right of claim at all to the knigdom of Lordaeron.
    Sylvanas was basically chosen by the Forsaken. You can't go hide for 10+ years, then walk up and go "Hey join me" and expect it to be all sunshine and roses. Those that went to her were in open rebellion, no different than the defias or northwatch rebellion. Yet no one cares about them being put down (And hell they actually both had a better reason for joining the other side.)

  17. #817
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Sylvanas was basically chosen by the Forsaken. You can't go hide for 10+ years, then walk up and go "Hey join me" and expect it to be all sunshine and roses. Those that went to her were in open rebellion, no different than the defias or northwatch rebellion. Yet no one cares about them being put down (And hell they actually both had a better reason for joining the other side.)
    So you're comparing people wanting to be with their families... to a group of masons that got extorted by Onyxia when she manipulated the Stormwind nobles? Not exactly a fair comparison. By the way, I imagine the kingdom of Lordaeron technically still belongs to the Menethil royal bloodline.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  18. #818
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    The original former-Scourge Forsaken are all extremely loyal to Sylvanas because she helped free them from the Lich King's grasp, retook Lordaeron, etc. -- that's all in the Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Scourge campaign.

    New undead raised by the valkyr are allowed to exercise their free will, assuming they still have their faculties. They're not given the choice to be raised, but they're given the choice to return to death or to strike out on their own, as Voss did.


    All of that is reflected in their iconic racial ability, Will of the Forsaken. They can't be controlled. That's the point of the race, they broke free through sheer willpower.


    Sylvanas can't raise new Forsaken herself. That's why she needs the valkyr. If you see her raising undead to fight for her, those are just reanimated corpses. Black Arrow was one of her iconic abilities in WC3 and it allows her to reanimate the skeletons of enemies she kills to temporarily fight for her.


    Anything that contradicts that is inconsistent writing. Of course, Blizzard's gonna Blizzard; if there's a story they want to tell, then being consistent with established lore isn't going to stop them.


    That all being said, I knew Blizzard would take her down this road as soon as they started telegraphing the lore for Battle for Azeroth. It's a huge disappointment to see them dragging yet another Horde warchief down this same path that they dragged Garrosh down, saying "it's more nuanced than it looks!" without actually showing any nuance, like they're convincing anyone.

    After the setup we got for Sylvanas becoming Warchief at the start of Legion (with the heroic music and all), and the wasted potential of Vol'jin, I was really hoping they'd build her up into a Warchief that the Horde can fully get behind. But it seems more and more that that won't be the case.

    I've said it time and time again, as a Horde player I'm sick of having to choose between my Warchief and my morality. It would be different if Blizzard at least gave Horde players the opportunity to play the role of antagonist and fully invest in doing the wrong thing, but you know that we're just ultimately going to have to turn on Sylvanas and depose her, anyway.

    It's just a huge bummer to see that them doing this all over again, not even being subtle about it. I'm still holding out hopes for red herrings and a shift to make this all not a repeat of Garrosh, but with every new bit of story they release, the chances of that happening dwindle.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by StaeleAilar View Post
    The thing is though, unless i am mistaken or it has been retconned... her original goal was to kill arthas and use the forsaken as "Arrows in her quiver". Then cataclysm came around and of course she saw Garrosh throwing her people to die so his people didn't (or whatever it was i don't remember the exact words of her vision)... However they BARELY built up that side of things and then we were and are back to Sylvanas trying to do ANYTHING to prevent her own *true* death, even to the detriment of her own "people" whom she apparently is believed to love and adore and want to protect.
    Essentially, at the time being, this is unclear at best. It's true that her original goal was to kill Arthas, and she considered the forsaken as "arrows in quiver" to aim at Arthas' heart. However, her views of them have changed long since then. After Arthas was killed by us, we got Sylvanas' short story "Edge of Night", in which her new view was established. She traveled to ICC and found that now her target of hatred is no longer around, she didn't have any motivation to continue moving on. Sylvanas jumped down from the top of ICC and were death upon landing on the saronite spikes below, but then it wasn't over - she got to experience what is waiting for her after death: a terrifying, bleak realm filled with terrible dark creatures constantly claw at and gleefully torment her soul. She saw that even young Arthas' soul were tormented, and realized that in the face of this, even the Lich King seems insignificant. Sylvanas regretted her actions and was horrified at the prospect of an eternity of anguish, but the Val'kyr then saved her soul and showed her the Forsaken's future without her. Sylvanas accepted the pact with the Val'kyr, and she was brought back to life. Since then, she was determined not to die again, and changed her view of the Forsaken from "arrows in the quiver" to "bulwark against the infinite" instead.

    As a result, Sylvanas does care about her people now. However, what does she see her people as? Does she care about them as people, or does she only think of them as precious resource to protect her from death? Chronicle didn't mentioned anything about her view, so presumably it hasn't been changed and still is the first one. If that's the case, it'd be in line with what you said (and keep in mind that, as far as I can recall, it hasn't been mentioned anywhere that Sylvanas *love* her people). Whether she will change her way is to be seen. Legion's preview hinted at a storyline in which Sylvanas will eventually have to decide what's more important: her soul or her people ("As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul") - of which I don't think we have seen the end yet. If it hadn't been scrapped, we might see the continuation of it in BfA (probably with Sylvanas be willing to sacrifice herself for her people and prove that, in the end, even she can change - emphasizing Anduin's opinion of everyone can change for the better, and contrast his current view that Sylvanas is truly lost).
    Last edited by Qualia; 2018-05-22 at 03:47 AM.
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  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    If she'd let the forsaken back into society they'd start spreading ideas that she really doesn't want spreading. Sylvanas did right by killing them before they could become a threat.
    So much for free will.

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