So, uh... anyone defending Sylvanas anymore? (SPOILERS!!!)

[Aeula]

So much for free will.

Free will so long as they’re not in direct opposition to her. As the starting area shows.

[Deleted]

So much for free will.

The Forsaken might found out that they are allowed to be happy. We can't have that. Sylvi wants miserable wretches. Hating every living thing. Fighting for her until the end so she won't have to die ever. Killing every living thing so they can be raised as undead. Hmm. That sounds familiar doesn't it?

[StaeleAilar]

Mak'gora is different than desertion, the defias already were criminalized when they rioted IIRC. The point being both of them killed traitors.

I'm not sure if they were "criminalised" but they were recognised as a gang and they also were (whether directly or indirectly - i can't remember) responsible for the death of Tiffin during their riot/protest or whatever it was.

[Combatbutler]

So you're comparing people wanting to be with their families... to a group of masons that got extorted by Onyxia when she manipulated the Stormwind nobles? Not exactly a fair comparison. By the way, I imagine the kingdom of Lordaeron technically still belongs to the Menethil royal bloodline.

Technically it belongs to Khel'thuzad now.

[Kallisto]

So you're comparing people wanting to be with their families... to a group of masons that got extorted by Onyxia when she manipulated the Stormwind nobles? Not exactly a fair comparison. By the way, I imagine the kingdom of Lordaeron technically still belongs to the Menethil royal bloodline.

It doesn't matter who it legally belongs to. Sylvanas is on the throne at this moment. Calia went and hid for over a decade. That is considered renouncing. No one was attacked until she basically came out of the shadows and screamed "I AM YOUR QUEEN COME WITH ME!" . After that moment families mean squat you had a choice. Go back immediately or go with Calia and side with the pretende/usurper. It's simple make your choice. Taking forever to come back basically means you made that choice but don't want to face the consqequences. GG any ruler pre WW2 would have done the same. Doesn't matter if you have weapons in hand betrayal of a monarch is a death sentance.

Stop looking at this through 21st century eyes and realise this is basically 12th century with steampunk additions.

[Deleted]

It doesn't matter who it legally belongs to. Sylvanas is on the throne at this moment. Calia went and hid for over a decade. That is considered renouncing. No one was attacked until she basically came out of the shadows and screamed "I AM YOUR QUEEN COME WITH ME!" . After that moment families mean squat you had a choice. Go back immediately or go with Calia and side with the pretende/usurper. It's simple make your choice. Taking forever to come back basically means you made that choice but don't want to face the consqequences. GG any ruler pre WW2 would have done the same. Doesn't matter if you have weapons in hand betrayal of a monarch is a death sentance.

Stop looking at this through 21st century eyes and realise this is basically 12th century with steampunk additions.

Well, 'taking forever' is a bit much to say for someone saying: I'm not coming with you, I'm staying with Sylvanas. Then turning around, even shouting the retreat again to the others and then taking an arrow to the chest.

[Lorde Snow]

I'm really impressed with how many people still support Sylvanas despite everything she's done and is doing, the people at this forum are so sick beyond imagination

Infracted.

[Deleted]

It's not a question of will people support Sylvanas. Of course some players will. The question is: do we still believe that Blizzard is setting her up for anything beside a boss fight? Do we still believe that crap about nuances and no clear bad guy when Sylvi is walking around with red arrows saying "threat to everything" written all over them pointing at her?

[Verdugo]

I'm really impressed with how many people still support Sylvanas despite everything she's done and is doing, the people at this forum are so sick beyond imagination

I think people that try to evade ban by creating new accounts are way more sick.

[Dudas]

It's not a question of will people support Sylvanas. Of course some players will. The question is: do we still believe that Blizzard is setting her up for anything beside a boss fight? Do we still believe that crap about nuances and no clear bad guy when Sylvi is walking around with red arrows saying "threat to everything" written all over them pointing at her?

Don't you feel the faction pride and morally grey shades displayed in every single action?

[Blizzard Moneybot]

It's not a question of will people support Sylvanas. Of course some players will. The question is: do we still believe that Blizzard is setting her up for anything beside a boss fight?

Depends no whether or not she will yield to HUMAN POTENTIAL like her sisters. Anduin will save the Horde and the world. (are you feeling nauseous yet?)

[Rozz]

Yeah, bc I wanna see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
And when she goes batshit, we'll kill her. It's how it always goes, so I'm not concerned at all.

If she actually gets better, I'll be legitimately surprised. Esp if she improves and the Alliance somehow gets darker. That'd be something I wouldn't expect from Blizzard.

[mickybrighteyes]

So you're comparing people wanting to be with their families... to a group of masons that got extorted by Onyxia when she manipulated the Stormwind nobles? Not exactly a fair comparison. By the way, I imagine the kingdom of Lordaeron technically still belongs to the Menethil royal bloodline.

Technically... the land was razed and conquered multiple times by parties unrelated to the Menethil family and has been occupied by the forsaken. Caelia turning up could lend credence to the idea of her continuing the bloodline.... but fact remains that it was conquered by the scourge... then the forsaken. As the land has been occupied by the forsaken, for years now, without any knowledge of surviving Menethil family members, you can techincally argue whatever you wish but you're ignoring the right of conquest and settlers rights.

Now some might wish to live under a surviving Menethil family member... others might remember the current situation was CAUSED by the Menethil family... either way it's not going to end well if any party decides to but heads.

[Deleted]

Something something war crimes. Sylvanas isn't my favorite character or a warchief but I support her. What she's doing to the Alliance (You know, during FULL TIME CONFLICT) is not enough. If she wanted to she would drop plague from zeppelins onto Stormwind but she won't. Imo she's doing a good job protecting the Horde because nobody else will right now and there's nobody that is strong enough to do it. (Inb4 Saurfang, he's old and his loyalties are questionable.)

[Ielenia]

Technically... the land was razed and conquered multiple times by parties unrelated to the Menethil family and has been occupied by the forsaken. Caelia turning up could lend credence to the idea of her continuing the bloodline.... but fact remains that it was conquered by the scourge... then the forsaken. As the land has been occupied by the forsaken, for years now, without any knowledge of surviving Menethil family members, you can techincally argue whatever you wish but you're ignoring the right of conquest and settlers rights.

"Right of conquest" doesn't mean "the land is rightfully ours, now, and forever". It only means its yours "as long as you can defend it". And since the land originally belonged to the Menethil family, I imagine Calia is technically justified to want back what was once her family's land.

Now some might wish to live under a surviving Menethil family member... others might remember the current situation was CAUSED by the Menethil family... either way it's not going to end well if any party decides to but heads.

That is a very unfair statement, borderline malicious, even, since it heavily implies that the Menethil family was oppressing the people and forcing undeath upon their subjects. The current situation was caused by Arthas, yes, but his mind was long corrupted by the Frostmourne sword, by the Lich King.

[mickybrighteyes]

That is a very unfair statement, borderline malicious, even, since it heavily implies that the Menethil family was oppressing the people and forcing undeath upon their subjects. The current situation was caused by Arthas, yes, but his mind was long corrupted by the Frostmourne sword, by the Lich King.

Stratholme begs to differ.

the crown prince, untainted by Frostmourne or the Lich King went on a merry killing spree putting every man woman and child to the sword leaving much death and destruction in his wake.

edit:

later on you can blame the lich king and frostmourne... but it was still the actions of Arthas that brought frostmourne back to Lordaeron and through the King's torso as he succeeded the throne.

edit2:

also the forsaken seemed to have done a fine job defending their territory until BfA comes in and renders the land rather inhospitable to everyone BUT forsaken. But really... going to talk about Caelia's right when the nation itelf collapsed and it's people fled and went out of their way killing each other instead of bothering to discuss things.

[Ielenia]

Stratholme begs to differ.

the crown prince, untainted by Frostmourne or the Lich King went on a merry killing spree putting every man woman and child to the sword leaving much death and destruction in his wake.

Again, your tone heavily implies that Arthas wanted to kill everyone in Stratholme just for the funsies, or because one of the kids in town looked at him funny. That was not the case. The entire town was infected by the Plague and would soon turn into undead abominations if not killed first.

edit:

later on you can blame the lich king and frostmourne... but it was still the actions of Arthas that brought frostmourne back to Lordaeron and through the King's torso as he succeeded the throne.

How much can we say those were Arthas' actions alone, if by the time he grasped Frostmourne by the first time, the Lich King already started corrupting him? I mean, as much as he might have resented his father for heeding Uther's advice and recalled his troops in Northrend, I doubt he'd kill his own father for that.

edit2:

also the forsaken seemed to have done a fine job defending their territory until BfA comes in and renders the land rather inhospitable to everyone BUT forsaken. But really... going to talk about Caelia's right when the nation itelf collapsed and it's people fled and went out of their way killing each other instead of bothering to discuss things.

Not sure I quite understand what you meant, there.

[Whitedragon]

Technically... the land was razed and conquered multiple times by parties unrelated to the Menethil family and has been occupied by the forsaken. Caelia turning up could lend credence to the idea of her continuing the bloodline.... but fact remains that it was conquered by the scourge... then the forsaken. As the land has been occupied by the forsaken, for years now, without any knowledge of surviving Menethil family members, you can techincally argue whatever you wish but you're ignoring the right of conquest and settlers rights.

Now some might wish to live under a surviving Menethil family member... others might remember the current situation was CAUSED by the Menethil family... either way it's not going to end well if any party decides to but heads.

To be fair she actually used the land as a bargaining chip for alliance help in disposing of a dread lord she then proceeded to back stab her allies, so strictly speaking she still owes the land as a debt to the Alliance.

[StaeleAilar]

Essentially, at the time being, this is unclear at best. It's true that her original goal was to kill Arthas, and she considered the forsaken as "arrows in quiver" to aim at Arthas' heart. However, her views of them have changed long since then. After Arthas was killed by us, we got Sylvanas' short story "Edge of Night", in which her new view was established. She traveled to ICC and found that now her target of hatred is no longer around, she didn't have any motivation to continue moving on. Sylvanas jumped down from the top of ICC and were death upon landing on the saronite spikes below, but then it wasn't over - she got to experience what is waiting for her after death: a terrifying, bleak realm filled with terrible dark creatures constantly claw at and gleefully torment her soul. She saw that even young Arthas' soul were tormented, and realized that in the face of this, even the Lich King seems insignificant. Sylvanas regretted her actions and was horrified at the prospect of an eternity of anguish, but the Val'kyr then saved her soul and showed her the Forsaken's future without her. Sylvanas accepted the pact with the Val'kyr, and she was brought back to life. Since then, she was determined not to die again, and changed her view of the Forsaken from "arrows in the quiver" to "bulwark against the infinite" instead.

As a result, Sylvanas does care about her people now. However, what does she see her people as? Does she care about them as people, or does she only think of them as precious resource to protect her from death? Chronicle didn't mentioned anything about her view, so presumably it hasn't been changed and still is the first one. If that's the case, it'd be in line with what you said (and keep in mind that, as far as I can recall, it hasn't been mentioned anywhere that Sylvanas *love* her people). Whether she will change her way is to be seen. Legion's preview hinted at a storyline in which Sylvanas will eventually have to decide what's more important: her soul or her people ("As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul") - of which I don't think we have seen the end yet. If it hadn't been scrapped, we might see the continuation of it in BfA (probably with Sylvanas be willing to sacrifice herself for her people and prove that, in the end, even she can change - emphasizing Anduin's opinion of everyone can change for the better, and contrast his current view that Sylvanas is truly lost).

Thanks for a bit more clarification... i feel like your resolution to the situation is probably the most likely however i kinda wish it wasn't. I'm kinda tired of redemption arcs too xD. But maybe that's just me.

Personally i don't think she can be redeemed for what she's done since becoming Banshee Queen. There's just too much evil and malice. But we shall see i suppose.

[Vivapin8]

Something something war crimes. Sylvanas isn't my favorite character or a warchief but I support her. What she's doing to the Alliance (You know, during FULL TIME CONFLICT) is not enough. If she wanted to she would drop plague from zeppelins onto Stormwind but she won't. Imo she's doing a good job protecting the Horde because nobody else will right now and there's nobody that is strong enough to do it. (Inb4 Saurfang, he's old and his loyalties are questionable.)

Saurfangs loyalti is with the One and True Warchief ....Thrall !!!