Battle for Azeroth Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Steampunkette]

I see a zombie walking into town, and I think scourge agent. Seriously, the northern kingdoms fell due to the Scourge infiltrating the land with plagued grain... You think they wouldn't pretend to be 'free and innocent' to start slaughtering the southern kingdoms?

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Really? So all those people Sylvannas killed for wanting to leave the forsaken in the upcoming book isn't canon? What about the fact she killed those who weren't leaving?

My response to you is, Eh. I understand WHY the humans killed them. It makes sense. But I can understand someone's actions and motivations without -agreeing- with them. I can also understand why the RAS used Scarlet Crusaders to test the Blight. Doesn't mean I agree with their actions or think it was appropriate.

As to the people leaving: They didn't ask, or at least it hasn't been shown, yet. It's been shown, canonically, that if you ask you can get released from your promise of service. It's never been shown that someone asked and was denied.

[gcsmith]

Last response I'll add in here since it's already been explained a dozen times over in other threads. She killed them for perceived desertion and treason, and assumed those coming back to her were out of fear of being caught, not real loyalty. Triggered by the reveal of Calia.

The Forsaken starting zones, Ask CDEV and the Traveler book all reinforce that Forsaken can ask to leave and Sylvanas will grant it. That doesn't mean they can desert and it will go unpunished, because they aren't the same thing.

TLDR, it's already been explained, and it's canon.

Whats the difference between leaving the forsaken and leaving the forsaken? Why should they ask to leave? They're not slaves, they don't owe anything to Sylvannas, if anything she owes them for raising them...

[Deleted]

omegalul

she killed them for perceived desertion and treason, and assumed those coming back to her were out of fear of being caught, not real loyalty.

omegalul



So basically "they are free" but they HAVE TO ASK to sylvanas to leave, BUT THEY AREN'T her slaves AND YET she killed those who were just coming back BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT THEY WERE COMING BACK CUZ SCARED


This is bipolar shit.

[Steampunkette]

Whats the difference between leaving the forsaken and leaving the forsaken? Why should they ask to leave? They're not slaves, they don't owe anything to Sylvannas, if anything she owes them for raising them...

They swore fealty.

When you rise as a Forsaken you get three options:

Serve Sylvanas.
Walk your own path.
Die.

They chose to swear a vow of service and be a part of the Forsaken. And that vow is what they're breaking when they defect without being released from their vow, first.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas is becoming Helya at this point.

[Marlamin]

At the end of this thread, someone should make some stats and see how many posts were about x. I'd be pretty interested to see how high Sylvanas ranks.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Whats the difference between leaving the forsaken and leaving the forsaken? Why should they ask to leave? They're not slaves, they don't owe anything to Sylvannas, if anything she owes them for raising them...

Do I really need to explain to you the difference between formally leaving and deserting?

[Steampunkette]

At the end of this thread, someone should make some stats and see how many posts were about x. I'd be pretty interested to see how high Sylvanas ranks.

Probably about as high as the EoA Login.

[OpieOP]

Sylvanas is becoming Helya at this point.

But please let her drop tier armor!... oh wait.. nevermind.

[Deleted]

"Walk your own path"

Ye, this is proven by that Non-Horde Forsaken Faction that doesn't exist.

[gcsmith]

They swore fealty.

When you rise as a Forsaken you get three options:

Serve Sylvanas.
Walk your own path.
Die.

They chose to swear a vow of service and be a part of the Forsaken. And that vow is what they're breaking when they defect without being released from their vow, first.

Interesting, I stand corrected, though it does lend questions to the "Forsaken have free will," when they're little more than servants like Much the Miller's son. That said, I wonder what would happen if they asked for freedom given how Sylvannas' plans are to invade Stormwind, kill humans and raise them against their will...

[Friendlyimmolation]

"Walk your own path"

Ye, this is proven by that Non-Horde Forsaken Faction that doesn't exist.

Its almost like you see non forsaken pcs all over the world in different organizations.

It's also almost like no matter what you say/complain about doesn't matter because of how canon works.

[gcsmith]

"Walk your own path"

Ye, this is proven by that Non-Horde Forsaken Faction that doesn't exist.

I mean, they did exist in the form of people like Lillian Voss, who somehow starts thinking that Sylvannas is ok, despite the fact they do as bad if not worse than the Scarlet Crusade she vowed to murder all of after being raised.

Then again this is the same time that Garona is happily joining the group that treated her like crap and raped her mother while helping them butcher the people who treated her with kindness and tried to free her... Oh, while calling the humans monsters...

[DeicideUH]

At the end of this thread, someone should make some stats and see how many posts were about x. I'd be pretty interested to see how high Sylvanas ranks.

I pity the poor soul that would go through this entire thread just to collect such data.

[Deleted]

Interesting, I stand corrected, though it does lend questions to the "Forsaken have free will," when they're little more than servants like Much the Miller's son. That said, I wonder what would happen if they asked for freedom given how Sylvannas' plans are to invade Stormwind, kill humans and raise them against their will...

Free will as in not mind-controlled. You can be completely not mindcontrolled and yet be a servant or even a slave (which I'm not saying the Forsaken are!). You can be completely free of mindcontrol and still be manipulated.

[gcsmith]

Sylvanas is becoming Helya at this point.

I mean, not quite, Helya at least had the motivation of thinking she was a slave that wanted freedom. I don't get why Sylvannas hates humans at this point.

[DeicideUH]

"Walk your own path"

Ye, this is proven by that Non-Horde Forsaken Faction that doesn't exist.

Well, there are a few non-forsaken undead running around. Just not an entire organization of them.

[gcsmith]

There are a few forsaken among the Argent Dawn. At least one initially served Sylvanas as an Apothecary but chose to leave. We have no information on HOW he left.

Theres the one guy in EPL who says he left his post one day when he believed the forsaken torturing innocent people was going too far... I doubt he asked to leave though.

"Hi Sylvannas, can I leave because I think your torturing of innocents is a little evil? Wait, why am I being tied to a surgical table?"

[Deleted]

Its almost like you see non forsaken pcs all over the world in different organizations.

It's also almost like no matter what you say/complain about doesn't matter because of how canon works.

Ah sure because EVERY FORSAKEN in game is 100% raised by sylvanas, there arent forsaken that got free will after arthas defeat or even during arthas tft "im losing my power spider-bro lets return to icc"


It almost like no matter what Sylvanas do, it is ok

[Izalla]

That's... certainly one interpretation of the text. A fuller quote would be:

"But how much of that was fear? How tempted were they until that point? No, Nathanos, I cannot take the risk. The only Desolate Council Members I trust are the ones who returned to me early on, broken and truly Desolate. All the others... I cannot allow that sentiment, that hope, to grow. It is an infection ready to spread. I have to cut it out."

Some were defecting, and when the horn blew, some came back. But how many came out of fear, rather than loyalty? That is the heart of the sentiment, the hope, to which she's referring. Disloyal people who -want- to defect, but are only returning out of fear for what Sylvanas would do if they did defect. That sentiment could spread (And would, because that's how revolts are born, after all).

It's not "Thinking about life that isn't under her heels" it's "Thinking about defecting" when you put it into the full context, instead of quote-mining.

Except there's an earlier part in the book, you can find it with the search option for pages we don't have access to (same way Calia's secret husband and daughter are able to be read about), where Sylvanas is thinking/talking about the Council and how she doesn't like that they don't want what she wants for them. She again mentions their ideas and hope as being something negative that is spreading like a disease and changing the minds of others. She thinks specifically of Elsie, the forsaken who rejects Calia on the field and calls "retreat". About Elsie she thinks that even someone she knows loves her and is loyal to her is dangerous to her rule and her plans for the forsaken. When she kills Elsie, she does it knowing Elsie is not a traitor who is only returning out of fear. She acknowledges earlier in the book that Elsie loves her and would never betray her, but that her ideas alone are a danger.