"Trials deserve loot too"

[Locked down]

I didn't know Jdotb spoke for the entire method guild.

Why does it matter what method thinks? 99.9999% of players have a playstyle no where near methods. It boils down to less then 300 people who field that kind of raid schedule.

I don't think removing master looter will have a big impact with tier dead. Just a annoyance to people who need 2 or the same weapon since it's to my understanding you need to cycle through all boss drops to get a duplicate.

I just hate when people point to what the people who play the game as a job do to decide what is good for the community .

[JackWest]

Why does it matter what method thinks? 99.9999% of players have a playstyle near methods. It boils down to less then 300 people who field that kind of raid schedule.

I don't think removing master looter will have a big impact with tier dead. Just a annoyance to people who need 2 or the same weapon since it's to my understanding you need to cycle through all boss drops to get a duplicate.

I just hate when people point to what the people who play the game as a job do to decide what is good for the community .

Tbh I think neither the "hardcores" who "treat it as a job", nor the casuals who "hurr durr lemme play how I want, despite me doing less damage than lower geared tank" should dictate the game direction. However, I feel like atm the community is divided between either one or the other

[ddsad2212]

You’re not the only one with that opinion. But why should the guild be able to manage the loot, if the loot is not theirs to begin with?

I guess this is where opinions differ. There are two types of people in this conversation, some who believe loot belongs to the guild and some who believe loot belongs to a raider. Honestly, why not just leave it up to the group in question. The most popular method will win out and if that's PL then guilds trying to use ML will eventually die out.

[nocturnus]

Tbh I think neither the "hardcores" who "treat it as a job", nor the casuals who "hurr durr lemme play how I want, despite me doing less damage than lower geared tank" should dictate the game direction. However, I feel like atm the community is divided between either one or the other

I wonder why you people keep confusing casual gamers with what you believe are bad ones.

Or is there some kind of consensus I missed on the wow-specific meaning of the word “casual”?

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I guess this is where opinions differ. There are two types of people in this conversation, some who believe loot belongs to the guild and some who believe loot belongs to a raider. Honestly, why not just leave it up to the group in question. The most popular method will win out and if that's PL then guilds trying to use ML will eventually die out.

Because if you leave it to the group, it automatically becomes a Hobson’s Choice for all the aforementioned reasons that simplify progress.

[Deleted]

The number of sjw who know nothing about anything else but their own tiny litterboxes called experience (in the game, in work, in life in general) but feel entitled to force their (lack of) expertise down everybody's throats is staggering.

How they all quickly fall into their own echochambers is fascinating. Please continue. It's like watching a parody of a B class movie.

[JackWest]

I wonder why you people keep confusing casual gamers with what you believe are bad ones.

Or is there some kind of consensus I missed on the wow-specific meaning of the word “casual”?

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Because if you leave it to the group, it automatically becomes a Hobson’s Choice for all the aforementioned reasons that simplify progress.

Because I am comparing the two ends of the spectrum. For example, as there are casual players who arent as bad, there are also as hardcore gamers(who want to always improve, be the best they can, tackle hardest content) without treating it like a job and playing 80-100 hours a week, and doing 5-6 hc runs first week the raid opens

[burek]

Why does it matter what method thinks?

It doesn't really. It just hurts the crybabies that people from method and exorsus are not actually against this change. They call themselves 'serious' and 'progression' raiders and it seems they don't get the support from people that actually are those things.

The point that guy has is a really good one to show how flawed ML is, and I'm sure his feeling is shared among many other healers. Why would healers or tanks or anyone have to sacrifice universally more than others? They have to do it because it's optimal, but it just feels bad for them, and a system where that doesn't happen is a much better one.

[klaps_05]

I guess this is where opinions differ. There are two types of people in this conversation, some who believe loot belongs to the guild and some who believe loot belongs to a raider. Honestly, why not just leave it up to the group in question. The most popular method will win out and if that's PL then guilds trying to use ML will eventually die out.

If a raider solos a raid, the loot belongs to him, if you need a group to kill something, then the loot belongs to the group.

An activity that requires you to be part of a group and people still debate who the loot belongs to. A trial is a person who will potentially become part of the group - if anything this hurts mostly non-super hardcore guilds who tend to have variable roster. People dont realize if your guild tends to switch members, this hinders your raid ilevel progression. I am only glad to see Blues finally start calling people out on their bullshit on official forums, so I highly doubt PL only system makes it to Mythic raids.

[nocturnus]

Because I am comparing the two ends of the spectrum. For example, as there are casual players who arent as bad, there are also as hardcore gamers(who want to always improve, be the best they can, tackle hardest content) without treating it like a job and playing 80-100 hours a week, and doing 5-6 hc runs first week the raid opens

I get that but saying the community is divided between these two extremes seems a wee bit dramatic, don’t you think?

[JackWest]

I get that but saying the community is divided between these two extremes seems a wee bit dramatic, don’t you think?

Well, thats how reading this very topic makes me think at least

[Jervaise]

The next time I am invited to some 2-3days assessment center or asked to develop and propose a dedicated strategy/product/solution as part of my hiring process I will ask to be paid for the time spent on these. MMOC experts said I should, must be legit.

Actually in many creative industries there are things like pitch-budgets. We get paid for the processes you proposed above. Also interns and people being assessed get paid too.

It's your life though, I won't say anything about you being OK about working without payments

Oh, btw I am a strategist.

[nocturnus]

They have to do it because it's optimal, but it just feels bad for them, and a system where that doesn't happen is a much better one.

Exactly; if a particular choice is optimal it virtually ceases to be a choice, hence the reason I mentioned the widely known Hobson’s Choice.

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Well, thats how reading this very topic makes me think at least

Vocal minority mate.

[JackWest]

Exactly; if a particular choice is optimal it virtually ceases to be a choice, hence the reason I mentioned the widely known Hobson’s Choice.

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Vocal minority mate.

I really hope you are right on that one

[Locked down]

I get that but saying the community is divided between these two extremes seems a wee bit dramatic, don’t you think?

I wouldn't say it's wrong in this case... the arguments against master looter seem bizzare to me and don't line up with anything a mythic guild would actively do.

On the other hand with the removal of tier losing ml isn't really a big deal. I haven't actually seen people list the actual draw back often. Such as stacking gear on dps being removed and how people who need/want two of the same weapon are going to have to jump through hoops.

I think the issue is less about master loot and more about the raiding crowd getting more and more upset and with good reason against "casuals" taking more and more things away from them.

[rebecca191]

he probably didnt work even day in his life if he is making ridiculous statements like this .

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oh ye - you should try to call him lfr scrub next, to descredit him ^^

its beyond hillarius when both exorsus and method players are happy with PL yet there are still people here, desperate to defend ML just to keep the abuse circle going

also cant deny a bit of personal satifaction when he is giving argument that i made earlier about healers being abused by giving loot to dps first as general rule ^^

I'm a healer in an 11/11m guild and idgaf about m+, I only care about raid progression and more gear on DPS does more to make my job better/less stressful than more healer gear would by pushing past bad mechanics faster. I can see why he likes the change if he cares more about m+, but it is still a lousy change for those of us who only care about raid progress. He literally said he likes it more because it helps his non raid goals, so his argument is of zero relevence to those of us who care more about raiding than m+. I don't feel abused or a second class citizen right now, instead I feel happy our guild gives gear in a way that furthers my goal which is raid progress over individual progress.

Great example is mythic Argus, where the difficulty of the fight changes if you miss a DPS check in phase one because it changes the timing of gazes for the rest of the fight. More gear on a healer will do nothing to mitigate that difficulty increase, more gear on DPS lets you avoid it entirely by keeping the better timing.

[Cyranis]

He literally said he likes it more because it helps his non raid goals, so his argument is of zero relevence to those of us who care more about raiding than m+.

Jdotb said what is relevant to him. There is no single right way to play world of warcraft. Why do you want to try and marginalize his experience because it differs from your own? Why are you trying to limit the field to only hardcore mythic raiders? Do you think your opinion on the matter, is solely relevant and no dissenting views need be heard? Do you think the way you play the game is the only one that matters and everyone else can go jump off a bridge?

Seems pretty selfish and narrow minded.

I think the issue is less about master loot and more about the raiding crowd getting more and more upset and with good reason against "casuals" taking more and more things away from them.

Casuals don't take anything away from anyone. They simply play the game and pay their sub.
If the hardcore elite need to be upset with someone, perhaps they should look inward for making their preferred way to play the game so toxic that it has driven itself into irrelevance.

[rebecca191]

Well, he supports a change to a raid loot system in place since the game was released for personal, non raid reasons. I was pointing out to the poster I replied to that he's a poor example if he wants to show a high end raider liking this change, because the player in question cares about m+, not raiding.

For the record, I think ml should only be allowed in mythic raids that are 100% guild groups as a compromise like Pathfinder, but Blizz is usually all or nothing, soooo...

[Locked down]

Jdotb said what is relevant to him. There is no single right way to play world of warcraft. Why do you want to try and marginalize his experience because it differs from your own? Why are you trying to limit the field to only hardcore mythic raiders? Do you think your opinion on the matter, is solely relevant and no dissenting views need be heard? Do you think the way you play the game is the only one that matters and everyone else can go jump off a bridge?

Seems pretty selfish and narrow minded.



Casuals don't take anything away from anyone. They simply play the game and pay their sub.
If the hardcore elite need to be upset with someone, perhaps they should look inward for making their preferred way to play the game so toxic that it has driven itself into irrelevance.

Well... this isnt true... the "elite" lost massive amounts of content from challenging world mobs to the removal of world elites to dungeons being nerfed to near afk till legion...

Even lfr has killed off crafting with its ease to powerful gear. You can claim nothing was taken but it isn't hard to see that isn't the case.

[nocturnus]

I wouldn't say it's wrong in this case... the arguments against master looter seem bizzare to me and don't line up with anything a mythic guild would actively do..

Needless to say, these are all opinions. I'm a mythic raider and have been for the last 10 years and welcome this change for all (my) aforementioned reasons.

[Cyranis]

Well... this isnt true... the "elite" lost massive amounts of content from challenging world mobs to the removal of world elites to dungeons being nerfed to near afk till legion...

Even lfr has killed off crafting with its ease to powerful gear. You can claim nothing was taken but it isn't hard to see that isn't the case.

Who took it? Did some casual bro reprogram the servers at blizz hq and stick it to you? No. The content didn't work out the way blizzard thought it would. As I remember it, it caused no end of fights over who had the right to kill it and blah blah blah. Aka .. people shit the bed and the idea got tossed. They had to remake the whole mob tagging system. Seem familiar?