Sylvanas and Teldrassil [SPOILERS]

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

By what fucked up logic would capturing an alliance capital city and murdering it's leaders not lead to a war? Whether she had done what she intended or done what happened it still would have lead to a war.

She's completely fucking insane.

Blizzards writing. Not mine. :shrug:

[Deleted]

I think people missunderstand what she meant with ending the war before it began... I think what she's trying to say is that with hippie tree gone and it's hippie leaders dead, the alliance would have been struck a pretty big blow, leading to sacking and/or conquering stormwind and ironforge much easier. She would of completely eliminate the alliance with a series of quick strikes, ending the war before it escalates and produces big casualties on BOTH sides

Then again I'm no military expert and have no idea how this works, perhaps it is just bad writing or w/e

[Qualia]

By what fucked up logic would capturing an alliance capital city and murdering it's leaders not lead to a war? Whether she had done what she intended or done what happened it still would have lead to a war.

She's completely fucking insane.

I guess Sylvanas was trying to, by her own admission, end a war before it started. Not avoiding it, nor ending in the literal sense (as in, put the incoming war into a stop there and then), but in the sense that the Alliance wouldn't be able to put up a proper fight. The Alliance and the Horde were presumably equal in strength. Killing the NE's leaders and ruining their capital would deal a lot of damage on the NE's morale and fighting power (and in turn, the Alliance) - at that point, the Horde would be so ahead that, even if the Alliance is to retaliate, the war wouldn't be a proper war but just a rather one-sided stomp instead. The kind of "This war is over, we've already won. It's a one-sided punishment / massacre from now on until they give up" thing.

That doesn't make her action better by any mean, though, but I'd say that she does have some (albeit twisted) logic behind it.

[Deleted]

Who would have expected that firing a high-heat and volatile projectile, which wasn't properly researched, at the foot of a tree would cause a fire?

[Alex86el]

https://youtu.be/4SD6iTKfhLo?t=1121
It would seem Sylvanas never intended to burn down the tree but capture it. Which means

i'm not in beta, but from what i've heard, she doesnt want to kill Malfurion. Only capture him to trade with Talanji.

and also from what i've heard, the Horde are gathering all the civilians in NE territories and executing them Nazi style.

also, if Sylvanas and the Horde want peace, maybe they should have thought of that many years ago,
and stick to their own territories, that the alliance races so graciously allowed them to settle in,
and also manage their various crazy members who do crazy stuff and fack things up.

also, does the poll ask for our opinion??
cause for the time being, i have no idea what actually happens.

[Schattenlied]

but in the sense that the Alliance wouldn't be able to put up a proper fight. The Alliance and the Horde were presumably equal in strength. Killing the NE's leaders and ruining their capital would deal a lot of damage on the NE's morale and fighting power (and in turn, the Alliance)

I don't see it that way... Fighting power? No, most of their military was absent already, no more damage was done than what happened with the tree burning. Morale? Pretty sure their home burning to ash would be just as big a morale hit as having it taken... At least when it's taken there's a chance to get it back.

Leaders being killed? I'd think that would just get the NE military, who is still mostly intact since they weren't there for the attack, even more into war mode, and without a home or leaders on Kalimdor they are now condensed and unified under the leader of the Alliance's other strongest military, the Humans... Congratulations, she successfully consolidated her opponent's military power on the continent which most of her people, who she claims she cares so much for, live, ensuring her loss of the Horde's foothold on the Eastern Kingdoms, the alliance turn around and sack undercity in retaliation and it's an even fight again.

- at that point, the Horde would be so ahead that, even if the Alliance is to retaliate, the war wouldn't be a proper war but just a rather one-sided stomp instead.

Not the way it looks so far.

[gcsmith]

https://youtu.be/4SD6iTKfhLo?t=1121
Sylvanas wished to capture Teldrassil to end the war before it even began by massacring all of leaders in one glorious day for the Horde to inflict a wound that would bleed the Alliance dry of its morale.



It would seem Sylvanas never intended to burn down the tree but capture it. Which means
A: She or someone else accidentally burned it down.
B: Someone of the Alliance wished it to be burned.

TLDR:
Sylvanas tried to avoid BfA by CAPTURING Teldrassil and killing Tyrande, Shandris and Malfurion.

That literally makes no sense...

"Lets end the war with the alliance by attacking them, at one of their weakest cities and killing leaders who spend more time being neutral than attacking us..."

[Gelannerai]

Pft, and here we all thought Blizzard was incapable of writing a decent story for the Alliance. Turns out their Horde plot and “morally grey story” (translation: at best moral relativism, at worst stupid evil) is just as mouth-breather tier, if not worse.

[Minikin]

https://youtu.be/4SD6iTKfhLo?t=1121
Sylvanas wished to capture Teldrassil to end the war before it even began by massacring all of leaders in one glorious day for the Horde to inflict a wound that would bleed the Alliance dry of its morale.



It would seem Sylvanas never intended to burn down the tree but capture it. Which means
A: She or someone else accidentally burned it down.
B: Someone of the Alliance wished it to be burned.

TLDR:
Sylvanas tried to avoid BfA by CAPTURING Teldrassil and killing Tyrande, Shandris and Malfurion.

Thera-teldrassil-more?

This sounds like a bad idea and plan. Something unlike sylvannas. She's supposed to be a smart military tactician

- - - Updated - - -

It's so bizarrely unnecessary and tone-deaf, too.

Capturing Teldrassil to foster a false and completely fear-driven peace, burning down Teldrassil, or accidentally burning down Teldrassil all carry similar negative implications of intent with different outcomes. It doesn't actually lend itself to nuance if it IS done by someone else (which it wasn't, just clearly unintentional) due to the other mounting evidence and history pitted against Sylvanas and her general expected M.O.

Basically, it doesn't matter if I kicked your puppy or if it was a pure accident and it happened to step in my way (or there was an invisible person in the room that kicked the puppy), I still shit on your rug and put mayonnaise in your air vent, so it doesn't really matter all that much.

So basically the only reason the debate for the sake of optics happens is...manufactured by Blizzard themselves and purely for marketing reasons, actually. Nothing with soul or meaning. It's a cool trailer image and piece of concept art to sell at auctions.

"What do YOU guys think happened? Eh? Eh?!"

I don't give a fuck, Alex/Christie/whoever. Try another hook.

This 100%. Given how far we are into the WoW story now this plot makes no sense what so ever besides a business model layer between expacs

[Carnatia]

Also, clearly the horde didn't receive the intel that Tyrande wasn't even in Darnassus or Kalimdor at all during this attack, if their intent was to kill Tyrande and Malfurion. Tyrande was in Stormwind, according to that story we've been shown. Which to be fair can be something the horde misses as they continue their march onto Ashenvale, Darkshore and beyond.


But also, there was the treaty and agreements made with Tyrande and the Alliance I suppose during the Seige of Orgrimmar with Tyrande saying:

Varian and I spoke at length about the price of peace before his decision here today. I am willing to allow the Horde the use of Azshara's lumber if they abandon Ashenvale for good. Knowing the way that goblins chew through resources, we will see how long that will sustain them.

I support this peace, but I do not share the High King's confidence. If the Horde breaks the treaty to engage us again... my people will be ready.

Sure, specifically talking about the use of lumber and resources, and I get it, that was a deal made with Vol'jin at the time, but a deal none the less, but even with him gone, this right away is already the Horde breaking agreements with the Night Elves, invading their territories, probably (Well I mean like it says goblins and resources) already chopping down trees for resources, is already enough grounds for Night Elven/Alliance retaliation regardless of Sylvanas' reasons for wanting to take/capture/destroy Teldrassil and the Night Elven leadership.

[Harbour]

something something sylvanas isn't evil bullshit

[Morally Grey Storm]

But but silvunis is a deep dark character.
She be strong fymile and such.

[WolfRider]

I think most of people misunderstood something important.

The Horde's major territory is on Kalimdor.
Gallywix found and started to exploit Azerite, then shown it to Sylvanas.
SI-7 was spying on Goblins and got an Azerite sample and shown it to Anduin.
Both factions leaders found something valuable in that resources, and both fear that opposite faction will use it.
Anduin asked Tyrande to send scouts to help the Explorer's league that is investigating on Azerite for the Alliance.

In the meantime, Sylvanas is requested by the Desolate Council AND Anduin Wrynn because human and forsaken family members accepted to meet.
Sylvanas didn't approve that reunion but she accepted.
She understood that Calia Menethil was involved in that reunion. She stopped the meeting like it was agreed in the deal between faction leaders.
Calia Menethil betrayed the deal, Sylvanas had to stop the nascent plot.
With a bit of paranoïa (and who can blame her with that), she believes that Alliance is plotting against her and the Horde.

Back to Kalimdor, Night Elves found something valuable and asked Darnassus for reinforcement.
Most of Darnassus troops are walking to Silithus.
Sylvanas needs to stop the incoming threat, because Alliance will fight Goblins and take all the Azerite.
She launched an assault on Darnassus to stop the Night Elves' plan.
It ends with the burning of Teldrassil.

Personally, if I was in Sylvanas' shoes, I would do EXACTLY the same, unless I wanted my head on a spike because of a naïve inaction:
If I let the Desolate Council do what they wanted, the Forsaken (with time) would follow Calia Menethil.
If I focused on Forsaken, the other Horde members would think I'm not a partial leader and the Horde will dismantle.
If I let the Kaldoreis invade Silithus, they will have the firepower to wipe the Horde.

What would have done the other Horde leaders?
Baine, Saurfang and Lortemar would have ignore Gallywix, so they wouldn't mind about Azerite.
Gallywix wouldn't mind about the Horde and trade Azerite for Gold, even with Alliance.

So, from Horde's perspective, THANK YOU SYLVANAS!

[Vakir]

But but silvunis is a deep dark character.
She be strong fymile and such.

I'm as non-plused as anyone as I demonstrated in the thread, but get out of here with that bullshit.

No fan of her has ever made any concrete argument that Sylvanas is a better character because she's female or even given further sympathy to her as a result. Look at the sheer volume of people who lap up equally morally repugnant or ambiguous characters that are male.

You're projecting a political bent that's not related and it completely undercuts legitimate complaints that are related to writing and writing alone. The identity politics are a stupid distraction.

inb4 something something "fething"

[Tabrotar]

I think most of people misunderstood something important.

The Horde's major territory is on Kalimdor.
Gallywix found and started to exploit Azerite, then shown it to Sylvanas.
SI-7 was spying on Goblins and got an Azerite sample and shown it to Anduin.
Both factions leaders found something valuable in that resources, and both fear that opposite faction will use it.
Anduin asked Tyrande to send scouts to help the Explorer's league that is investigating on Azerite for the Alliance.

In the meantime, Sylvanas is requested by the Desolate Council AND Anduin Wrynn because human and forsaken family members accepted to meet.
Sylvanas didn't approve that reunion but she accepted.
She understood that Calia Menethil was involved in that reunion. She stopped the meeting like it was agreed in the deal between faction leaders.
Calia Menethil betrayed the deal, Sylvanas had to stop the nascent plot.
With a bit of paranoïa (and who can blame her with that), she believes that Alliance is plotting against her and the Horde.

Back to Kalimdor, Night Elves found something valuable and asked Darnassus for reinforcement.
Most of Darnassus troops are walking to Silithus.
Sylvanas needs to stop the incoming threat, because Alliance will fight Goblins and take all the Azerite.
She launched an assault on Darnassus to stop the Night Elves' plan.
It ends with the burning of Teldrassil.

Personally, if I was in Sylvanas' shoes, I would do EXACTLY the same, unless I wanted my head on a spike because of a naïve inaction:
If I let the Desolate Council do what they wanted, the Forsaken (with time) would follow Calia Menethil.
If I focused on Forsaken, the other Horde members would think I'm not a partial leader and the Horde will dismantle.
If I let the Kaldoreis invade Silithus, they will have the firepower to wipe the Horde.

What would have done the other Horde leaders?
Baine, Saurfang and Lortemar would have ignore Gallywix, so they wouldn't mind about Azerite.
Gallywix wouldn't mind about the Horde and trade Azerite for Gold, even with Alliance.

So, from Horde's perspective, THANK YOU SYLVANAS!

Nope she only was aware that Calia was there when someone sayed it to her WHILE they were there.

And no she herself admitted that Anduin would never have done something so stupid so she knows the Alliance wasn´t after her and wanted a war.

And regarding "The Alliance wanted to take the Azerite and manufacture it into WoMD" yeah a lil heads up for you mate, that´s the Horde modus operanti there.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I'm as non-plused as anyone as I demonstrated in the thread, but get out of here with that bullshit.

No fan of her has ever made any concrete argument that Sylvanas is a better character because she's female or even given further sympathy to her as a result. Look at the sheer volume of people who lap up equally morally repugnant or ambiguous characters that are male.

You're projecting a political bent that's not related and it completely undercuts legitimate complaints that are related to writing and writing alone. The identity politics are a stupid distraction.

inb4 something something "fething"

No fan needed to do so.

Do you recall the lines from the book on how she managed to shackle the vile bonds of male original horde warchiefs?
And no matter how you may like it or not, she is indeed a deep strongar fumale choractur.

[Vakir]

Do you recall the lines from the book on how she managed to shackle the vile bonds of male original horde warchiefs?

...except that's not how it was taken to be interpreted. Like, at all. There are plenty of Warchiefs prior to her that are characterized as firmly positive, especially Thrall, who Christie Golden (same author) was directly responsible for fleshing out in Lord of the Clans in the first place, as well as Vol'jin.

Her actions in Before the Storm are not exactly characterized as positive. I don't really know how much more clearly that can be presented, either.

And no matter how you may like it or not, she is indeed a deep strongar fumale choractur.

I mean, if you want to completely divorce yourself from anything resembling a sensible argument by means of garbled meme-trash phrases, sure.

Criticize the writing itself, not the gender behind the writing. Sylvanas has been written by several people besides just Golden. Are you telling me all of them had her gender in mind relative to her immensely stupid and illogical decisions? And every single one of them - Alex Afrasiabi, Dave Kosack, Chris Metzen, etc. all wrote her to be a rah-rah strong female? You're going to need a lot of ammunition to support that conceit.

Sylvanas sucks, but if I flipped her gender, she'd basically be every bit as terrible (except more forum fascists would probably like her).

[Morally Grey Storm]

...except that's not how it was taken to be interpreted. Like, at all. There are plenty of Warchiefs prior to her that are characterized as firmly positive, especially Thrall, who Christie Golden (same author) was directly responsible for fleshing out in Lord of the Clans in the first place, as well as Vol'jin.

Her actions in Before the Storm are not exactly characterized as positive. I don't really know how much more clearly that can be presented, either.



I mean, if you want to completely divorce yourself from anything resembling a sensible argument by means of garbled meme-trash phrases, sure.

Criticize the writing itself, not the gender behind the writing. Sylvanas has been written by several people besides just Golden. Are you telling me all of them had her gender in mind relative to her immensely stupid and illogical decisions? And every single one of them - Alex Afrasiabi, Dave Kosack, Chris Metzen, etc. all wrote her to be a rah-rah strong female? You're going to need a lot of ammunition to support that conceit.

Sylvanas sucks, but if I flipped her gender, she'd basically be every bit as terrible (except more forum fascists would probably like her).

Feel free to educate me on how it should be interpreted, then.

If we were to make a headcount, I am quite sure the bad leaders would far outweigh the good ones.
Do names like Blackhand, garrosh and Doomhammer ring a bell for you?
And slyvarbess is, while being strong, fomile and independent character, falls firmly in the “bad” category.

In fact, I am hard pressed to recall a single decent, or God-Emperor forbid, good action.

No, I don’t think authors held her very importantly gender in mind prior to superb Golden’s writing in BtS.
And no, I’m not criticizing her gender, just mocking her character in general along with these lines the book has about gender, along with riling up pc group. Because feth knows, pc group needs to be thoroughly riled and roasted and tortured and triggered.

She’s bad character as a whole.
All the writing about here is either as bad or paints her even badder.
Yes, there is no such word as badder, but that is how I roll

[Vakir]

Feel free to educate me on how it should be interpreted, then.

"The shitty warchiefs you're mentioning have nothing to do with Sylvanas and were all ousted by people other than Sylvanas."

You know, the sensible way to interpret things.

And slyvarbess is, while being strong, fomile and independent character, falls firmly in the “bad” category.

In fact, I am hard pressed to recall a single decent, or God-Emperor forbid, good action.

No argument there, though. I don't think most people would argue against her being evil at the moment, and if they do, it's...probably not because she's female.

No, I don’t think authors held her very importantly gender in mind prior to superb Golden’s writing in BtS.
And no, I’m not criticizing her gender, just mocking her character in general along with these lines the book has about gender, along with riling up pc group. Because feth knows, pc group needs to be thoroughly riled and roasted and tortured and triggered.

Again, though - how did Golden make it about her gender, and how is the so-called "PC group" intentionally being riled with the new information? Because you're not giving any concrete examples, you're just invoking edgy flavor of the month topics that make for interesting forum rabble-rousing and it distracts from the rest of us who actually criticize actual freaking writing quality.

Some voice-over director being a tool at a panel at BlizzCon (that one female character panel) isn't indicative of the entire mission statement of a game made by hundreds of people and written by at least a dozen.

[Raiju]

Yes that theory isj ust...
Cause out of anyone the elves themselves would not notice
and she would not even attempt to tell them, instead deciding to attack.
also if it was corrupted they would get in and burn the place instead of what actually happens, the mass murder of thousands of civilians.

They've not noticed multiples time before. It's the crux of a lot of elf lore.