Why the Horde needs Sylvanas as Warchief [lore video]

[Nnyco]

Being enslaved by fel power is quite different than being enslaved by necromancy. Or is it?

nice headcanon 10/10

[Aeula]

The irony that Sylvanas is ex Alliance member. Hehe.

Ex is better than active.

[Broadinquiry]

The video presents an interesting perspective, but it begs the following question: At what cost can the Horde permit Sylvanas as its Warchief?

Unless absolute victory is assured (which it wouldn't be) she is risking the Horde's honour and integrity when performing these evil acts. Objectively, she is a detrimental influence on not only the Horde's reputation but also its survival. Therefore I cannot agree with the author of the video.

[Deleted]

Before the Storm book. Slaughtered tons of her people BEFORE figuring out Calia's goal. Also killed even those who still were loyal to her. Just in case.

Started war with Alliance because "There Night Elves on Kalimdor... they may attack me! Fuck them and burn the tree!".

Considered Desolate Council as threat even before figuring out what is what.

Killing those civilians in unfortunate but quite logical. She cant allow any insubordination there were traitors on that meeting. its tyrant way but it's not paranoia.

Attacking Teldrassil is also logical choice. Not because they may attack her but because of its alliance main port on kalimdor and storehouse of azerite. Without that "city" alliance presence on kalimdor is almost non-existant.

Think Desolate council show clearly they are not very satisfied with sylvanas.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Not going to watch the cringy video, there is no argument that hasn't been made before at this point in time. Sylvanas is not interesting, she is just behaving like a total ass. She isn't morally grey, she is just flat out evil. She already outdid garrosh by this point. If you want a a mustache twirrling villain, fine, but the issue is she does drag the whole faction down with her and we just have to follow along because there are no choices in wow questing..

[Thage]

I rather not have a leader that kills her own people.

This. Sylvanas's supporters can make all the MMO-C threads and YouTube videos they want, but all these arguments fall flat against one simple counterpoint: Sylvanas is ready, willing, and even eager to kill off her own people and Horde soldiers if that means getting her way. She'll desecrate Horde bodies without a second thought if it means getting her way. Even at his absolute worst, Garrosh allowed his enemies the peace of death and outlawed necromancy--Garrosh, who partook of an Old God's heart, waged a war of genocide, and united all of Azeroth against himself, was a better Warchief at the end of his reign than Sylvanas is currently.

You (rhetorical you, not you as in Hyral) can talk until you're blue in the face about how the Horde needs a ruthless Warchief in the face of an all-out faction war (one of her own making, but we'll ignore that point like her supporters have), but she has established herself as a credible threat to the Horde's troops at Undercity, and its civilians at Thoradin's Wall when she killed the loyalists who returned to her as demanded along with those who wished to be with their loved ones. And again, this war is one of her own making, sloppily-so at that.

The Horde's leadership writ large this expansion has seen significant character derailment and general bad writing to pave the way for Sylvanas to apply the same brand of tyranny she applies to the Forsaken, to the Horde as a whole, with the other Horde leaders (including one of the leaders of the Darkspear Rebellion and an orc who's been down this road twice now) conveniently either writing themselves out of the plot or keeping quiet despite Garrosh's reign having happened less than five years ago in-universe, all the while Sylvanas goes on her merry way putting up more red flags than Soviet Russia. At this point, these 'Dark Ages of the Horde' just feel tiresome more than anything, because the game's setup ensures that there will be no conclusive victory for either faction--the closest we got was when the Horde and Alliance teamed up to take down Garrosh and Varian decided not to annex the Horde then and there. And because there's no conclusive victory in WoW's lifetime, not without a significant shift in how the dev team approaches the two-faction system, ultimately the status quo will be maintained, with the occasional zone or two changing hands that eventually gets balanced out, because despite what Blizzard says, they almost always equalize the faction war after the backlash suffered from the Cataclysm leveling story seemingly favoring the Horde's initial blitzes rather than the Alliance counterattacks.

In summary, no, Sylvanas wasn't a necessary Warchief. In fact, I'm going to predict she'll end up replacing Garrosh as the worst Warchief the Horde's seen, as she takes his willingness to slaughter Horde soldiers one step further and desecrates their corpses, and does so without the thin veneer of honor he paid lip service to.

[Skirdus]

Except if the Warchief was someone level-headed like Baine or Saurfang there wouldn't be a war in the first place because both they and Anduin can just be like "nah, not happening" and it won't happen because they would have the authority to do so.

[Steampunkette]

Except if the Warchief was someone level-headed like Baine or Saurfang there wouldn't be a war in the first place because both they and Anduin can just be like "nah, not happening" and it won't happen because they would have the authority to do so.

Except they can't, because Genn and Jaina.

Genn was told not to engage the Forsaken Fleet unless it was necessary and immediately on finding them launched a sneak attack to try and kill as many as he could and assassinate Sylvanas.

Anduin can't control him. If Baine were in charge, he'd give Genn as many chances to "Stop doing naughty things" as he gave to Garrosh, which would probably spell the end of the Forsaken. Meanwhile Saurfang would see Genn hit Lordaeron ONCE and BLOOD AND HONOR would demand the destruction of the Alliance, again, which would lead to war and death. Meanwhile Lor'themar is a traitor and Gallywix wouldn't give two shits as Warchief and would sell Orgrimmar to the Alliance for a silver piece.

War and Death is pretty much inevitable, right now.

[Deleted]

Give me one instance of her paranoia you are talking about.

Murdering loyal subjects because 1 out of 20 MIGHT have been critical of her leadership.

[Psychotrip]

"I've seen tons of comments about how Sylvanas shouldn't be Warchief and how it should be Saurfang or someone else. I'd say these are mainly ignorant kids and that Sylvanas is by far the most interesting Warchief the Horde has ever had."
the warchief should not be a warchief because they are interesting, they should be A GOOD WARCHIEF not an interesting one.

story wise an interesting warchief is good.
logic wise you want a good one, not an interesting one.

And of course asking for both is just foolish at this point.

[Steampunkette]

Murdering loyal subjects because 1 out of 20 MIGHT have been critical of her leadership.

Some of her people were defecting in what looked like a planned Coup by Anduin who pushed for the meeting of the first place and appeared to be using Calia Menethil as a political puppet...

So... Y'know. Not exactly "Because 1 in 20 MIGHT have been critical of her leadership."

[Molvonos]

The problem I have with Sylvanas, aside from how the writers have written her into a shitty hole, is that the writers don't seem to understand that you have to show glimpses of a characters mindset.

You cant leave it in the dark to try and create a mysterious mindset or what have you. The books are somewhat decent for this, but when most of the medium people interact with her, is the mmo?

You get people on both sides of the Sylvanas hate train up at arms.

Honestly, I think they need to do a lot to fix all the major npcs, and I also think themat maybe, especially for BfA, they should implement questline similar to the Arthas/Illidan quests, where you took direct control of the character, to help us better understand their motivations.

That is, if they can write themselves out of the hole they made.

War for the sake of continuing the faction battle is kinda silly imo.

[Wildstars]

Some of her people were defecting in what looked like a planned Coup by Anduin who pushed for the meeting of the first place and appeared to be using Calia Menethil as a political puppet...

So... Y'know. Not exactly "Because 1 in 20 MIGHT have been critical of her leadership."

She killed them and ONLY then realize about Calia's plan. Also still killing those who were loyal to her. Just in case.

Ex is better than active.

Since when Saurfang and Baine joined Alliance?

[Aeula]

Since when Saurfang and Baine joined Alliance?

Baine has been one of the Alliance's top supporters and spies since Cata, Saurfang defected from the Horde and will likely join the Alliance in BfA.

[Steampunkette]

She killed them and ONLY then realize about Calia's plan. Also still killing those who were loyal to her. Just in case.

Reread the chapter, Wildstars.

Before Calia reveals herself openly, Sylvanas blows the horn 3 times because she sees defectors moving toward Stromgarde. It was her way to see if it was just a misunderstanding or an actual attempt to defect. THEN she gets told Calia is on the field and immediately believes Anduin is making a move against her. THEN she dispatches the Dark Rangers to kill everyone, because she can't be sure how many members of the Desolate Council were in on it. She can only be sure that those who returned before the Horn blew weren't (Since they didn't stay on the field for the reveal of Calia).

THEN Calia pulls back her hood and tells the Forsaken to make for the Keep. Some do. Some don't. Sylvanas does her best to kill them all because some of them might be defectors returning out of fear rather than loyalty, in which case they'll work to start an uprising.

It's only AFTER the massacre has started that she realizes that it wasn't Anduin's plan, and was Calia acting alone.

Short Version: Initially she thinks it's a handful of defectors so she blows her horn, then she thinks Anduin is using Calia as a political puppet so she sends the dark rangers, then she realizes that Anduin wasn't behind it.

[TheFirstOnes]

Baine has been one of the Alliance's top supporters and spies since Cata, Saurfang defected from the Horde and will likely join the Alliance in BfA.

...What are you talking about?

- - - Updated - - -

You honestly think that Saurfang will be Pro-Alliance? Get out of here...

And besides, Baine was always pro-Horde. He just hated Garrosh's bullshit, as well as Sylvanas' bullshit.

[Techno-Druid]

...What are you talking about?

Alliance defector = Anyone who's not an idiotic warmongerer

[TheFirstOnes]

Except they can't, because Genn and Jaina.

Genn was told not to engage the Forsaken Fleet unless it was necessary and immediately on finding them launched a sneak attack to try and kill as many as he could and assassinate Sylvanas.

Anduin can't control him. If Baine were in charge, he'd give Genn as many chances to "Stop doing naughty things" as he gave to Garrosh, which would probably spell the end of the Forsaken. Meanwhile Saurfang would see Genn hit Lordaeron ONCE and BLOOD AND HONOR would demand the destruction of the Alliance, again, which would lead to war and death. Meanwhile Lor'themar is a traitor and Gallywix wouldn't give two shits as Warchief and would sell Orgrimmar to the Alliance for a silver piece.

War and Death is pretty much inevitable, right now.

People can stop, ya know. We don't need to advance it. That's what Anduin tried to do during the Before the Storm Novel. And look how that ended.

[Ehrenpanzer]

that is why i can't take seriously threads about this

Just assuming Sylvanas is focused on surviving of her people/horde (and not in her own survival only, using the horde as meatshield) even more when she said the horde is not her people

And assuming a Warchief with honor would doom the horde because of his pride and values, like, what in the ass, there is no proof of that

Orgrin was honorable, pragmatic and sometimes cruel with his own questionable tactics, but he was effective, Saurfang commanded all the horde attacks in the warcraft 2 campaign (part of the second war) and they just steamrolled the alliance until lordaeron/Quel'thalas

Thrall with his honor and values freed his kin from the camps and fight against the legion in Kalindor, also, stand against the certain annihilation of the Proudmoore might

Garrosh in Cataclysm (please, i know mop don't try to tell me abou it ) Steamrolled the alliance once again with the horde honor and values

none of then needed to descend in the evil honorless leader path ( Garrosh did, where is he now?)

so, from where people are getting that you need to be a retarded evil leader, doing shit all over the place, doing evil things cause "its what we need" to win? when history show us that a honorable leader would be the same or even more successful without putting the horde lore into the dumpster?

rly, when the horde changed from "lok'tar ogar" to "survive at all cost" ?

Likely when most of the original writers moved on to other jobs/companies/projects and were replaced by 10th grade level hacks that can only write "RAWR Im teh Evilz" or "Durp I R teh Good Gaiz" level characters.

[TheFirstOnes]

Alliance defector = Anyone who's not an idiotic warmongerer

So, a person leaving the Alliance is not an idiotic warmongerer?

...The fuck?