Game is becoming increasingly dumbed down

[shaunika123]

BTW that might be true for PVE, but in PVP WotLK rogue was one of the most difficult classes to play with the highest skill cap (together with mage).

this is why I specified PVE, I know wotlk rogue was probably the epitome of pvp class design for the class.
i played it.

[beanman12345]

Got some bad news for you. WoW has always catered to the casual crowd. Did you know Wo was a very casual EQ clone and was mocked incessantly for years after it's release for being too casual friendly. Adding to that, Blizzard has hard data showing that a vast minority of players ever raided, thus the inclusion smaller group sizes and difficulties and the addition of LFR. WoW has always been a casual MMO. Nothing has changed other than Blizzard realizing that the hardcore groups that play are not enough to pay the bills, so they are doing more the the people who do.

It's really mind blowing how people are surprised that this game isn't supposed to be super difficult or will ever become super difficult.

[shaunika123]

Exactly.

The day that my LFR-only friend (he knows he's bad and enjoys the game anyway) suddenly starts seeing Mythic bosses go down at respectable rates, I'll agree that the game has been dumbed down for a fact across the board.

Until then, the game is merely changing. Change has apparently been equivalent to "dumbing down" since for as long as I remember seeing discussions about the game.

but this is the problem right here.

that the content is challenging, but the classes arent.

blizzard makes all classes wheelchair accessible, and then makes the content itself be harder

but that's not enjoyable gameplay really I want to enjoy playing my class too not just the game itself.

because if the class is hard it can be fun even when the content is on farm
if it's boring you'Ll want to blow your brains out when everything in the raid is on autopilot.

classes need to get skill expression back even if at the cost of raid difficulty.

[Ielenia]

All in all, this sounds like someone who, at best, glanced over some information about WoW and its upcoming expansion, and is extrapolating everything from there. What kills any and all credibility you could have, though, is this line:

4) the azerite system feels so much like the Netherlight Crucible. It also feels like a system meant to tax those who play multiple specs

Thanks for admitting you have zero f*cking clue about what you're talking about, since the Azerite system is not spec-specific, like the current artifacts are.

The rest of your post is just basically all misinformation or just outright false information.

[shaunika123]

Thanks for admitting you have zero f*cking clue about what you're talking about, since the Azerite system is not spec-specific, like the current artifacts are.

uhm? have you seen the traits? they totally are spec specific lol.

[Queen of Hamsters]

That's the problem with you and every other White Knight and your arguments about dumbing down or pruning.


You always compare 2018 with 2005. It's hilarious.


Class Design started dying with the release of WoD. Try comparing MoP to now.

Oh yeah, I forgot... You can't argue without resorting to kindergarten level and thus earning a vacation from the forum.

And I distinctly recall the "class design sux this gaem is dumbed down!!"-argument being just as heavily used before WoD as it is now. MoP has only begun being hailed as great as of Legion.
But, what to expect from the kool-aid crowd that latch onto memes to fuel their outrage.

[Jastall]

I remember back then when there was a big gap between a very good warrior and a normal one, especially with stance dancing.

*Looks at logs*

Still is. Where's this idea that there's no difference between good and bad players when similarly geared players on the same boss can have an almost 1 million DPS difference sometimes? Or why some players did the Mage Tower at ilvl 900 and others still get rekt at ilvl 950?

Also, stance dancing? Oh wow, you setup macros at the beginning of the xpack and never changed them afterwards. The skill, it is overwhelming.

[Queen of Hamsters]

uhm? have you seen the traits? they totally are spec specific lol.

Yes, but the artifact is not tied to each spec, unlike current artifact weapons, hence why playing many specs won't be punished as it was in early Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

*Looks at logs*

Still is. Where's this idea that there's no difference between good and bad players when similarly geared players on the same boss can have an almost 1 million DPS difference sometimes? Or why some players did the Mage Tower at ilvl 900 and others still get rekt at ilvl 950?

Also, stance dancing? Oh wow, you setup macros at the beginning of the xpack and never changed them afterwards. The skill, it is overwhelming.

That's the thing these people fail to understand.

There's nothing supporting their argument in-game. We still only see a small fraction playing classes vs the content at maximum potential. With increased accessibility, came greater responsibility from each individual player.

Before some pvper comes along: Yes yes, we know. We're talking PVE here. But then again, has the amount of Gladiators increased?

[shaunika123]

Yes, but the artifact is not tied to each spec, unlike current artifact weapons, hence why playing many specs won't be punished as it was in early Legion.

- - - Updated - - -



That's the thing these people fail to understand.

There's nothing supporting their argument in-game. We still only see a small fraction playing classes vs the content at maximum potential.

not as punished =/= not punished at all

the guy you quoted didnt say you're just as punished as now, he just said it still punishes multispeccing
and it does, just to a less extent.

*Looks at logs*

Still is. Where's this idea that there's no difference between good and bad players when similarly geared players on the same boss can have an almost 1 million DPS difference sometimes? Or why some players did the Mage Tower at ilvl 900 and others still get rekt at ilvl 950?

Also, stance dancing? Oh wow, you setup macros at the beginning of the xpack and never changed them afterwards. The skill, it is overwhelming.

dont even try to bring up logs, because even now RNG can easily decide between rank1 and top 50 even if you do the exact same thing
I have like 3-4 rank1s on immonar and I still manage to pull barely top 100 performances doing the exact same thing. and sub rogue isnt even that RNG.

and that's a single target boss

on stuff like coven or argus it's way more RNG

[Divinexve]

Yeah the game is being dumbed down so idiots like OP can finally play it DDD

[Sansnom]

You can't argue the game has been dumbed down astronomically. Combining multiple abilities into one? Streamlining everything?

There are over 50% of specs that are literally 3 button rotations. You occasionally press a DPS CD and occasionally press a proc.

Not standing in fire isn't exactly "hard".

There is a difference between making things hard, or easier, to making it more streamline.

The gap between skill floor and skill ceiling gets smaller with each expansion.

So, are more people clearing Mythic sooner? This is a real question. I have not followed the raids so I have not idea. If more players are clearing Mythic raids and sooner, then maybe the game is getting easier.

If not, then using the fact there are less buttons to press is not a real measurement of the skills. If that is the case, I would say we all much more dumber and less skillful than 10 years ago since many things in real life are easier too.

[shaunika123]

So, are more people clearing Mythic sooner? This is a real question. I have not followed the raids so I have not idea. If more players are clearing Mythic raids and sooner, then maybe the game is getting easier.

If not, then using the fact there are less buttons to press is not a real measurement of the skills. If that is the case, I would say we all much more dumber and less skillful than 10 years ago since many things in real life are easier too.

classes being dumbed down is the issue, not the raids.


seriously anyone who says sub is not dumber, I dare to log in to live play with it and then log in to beta and tell me with a straight face that it's the exact same complexity.

[Gardoc]

Yes, but the artifact is not tied to each spec, unlike current artifact weapons, hence why playing many specs won't be punished as it was in early Legion.

- - - Updated - - -



That's the thing these people fail to understand.

There's nothing supporting their argument in-game. We still only see a small fraction playing classes vs the content at maximum potential. With increased accessibility, came greater responsibility from each individual player.

Before some pvper comes along: Yes yes, we know. We're talking PVE here. But then again, has the amount of Gladiators increased?

Gladiator title is given to the top .5% of the ladder, so more gladiators would only mean more people doing arenas. BTW even the horrible WOD S3 had 5x more R1 and glads than Legion.

[Jastall]

dont even try to bring up logs, because even now RNG can easily decide between rank1 and top 50 even if you do the exact same thing
I have like 3-4 rank1s on immonar and I still manage to pull barely top 100 performances doing the exact same thing. and sub rogue isnt even that RNG

I'm not talking about rank 1 cheesing which has literally always depended on outside factors like procs, RNG, exact fight time or how the rest of your raid is doing. I'm talking about why I can take most any boss in Antorus and have similarly geared players have a massive DPS difference without counting those who died (which is most of the time a skill issue in its own right). You can explain some of that away by mechanics; getting 5 Embraces on Varimathras will tank your DPS hard if you're melee for instance. But that sure as fuck doesn't explain everything, and it also doesn't explain the Mage Tower point I brought up or why some players can do +25 keys or above while others at similar gear level struggle to do +19-20s.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Gladiator title is given to the top .5% of the ladder, so more gladiators would only mean more people doing arenas. BTW even the horrible WOD S3 had 5x more R1 and glads than Legion.

I'd think that if the skill gaps had been lowered to such an extent, that more people would be able to play at high enough levels to make a splash?
We don't see an increase in players suddenly capable of playing their class vs environment at acceptable levels (forget the top levels), but perhaps it'd be different in PVP with all the utility that's been removed...

[Haywire5714]

Class Design started dying with the release of WoD. Try comparing MoP to now.

Not a big fan of Hansol personally, but this video shows your point pretty well. It's crazy how different the combat is now.

[Yizu]

I think that adding LFR was a more casual move than adding LFD, because finding 24 other people is harder than 4 people. But that's just my opinion.
But yes, I agree. Rag was also hard boss.

Well, both expansions had their casual and pro content. I see no reason of using that argument in this thread.

Because the OP was saying everything became casual when cata started. Subs was on its peak when the game was the most casual its ever been in the history of WoW.

[Queen of Hamsters]

So, are more people clearing Mythic sooner? This is a real question. I have not followed the raids so I have not idea. If more players are clearing Mythic raids and sooner, then maybe the game is getting easier.

If not, then using the fact there are less buttons to press is not a real measurement of the skills. If that is the case, I would say we all much more dumber and less skillful than 10 years ago since many things in real life are easier too.

No, they are not. Not even with the insane power inflation.

And as a Heroic raider and Mythic tourist, I wouldn't say that things have been made easier. They're about the same as during WoD with some exceptions in either direction. Not that Heroic is some sort of gauge anyway when speaking of the top players.

I'd be interested to know just how many of the people complaining about "dumbing down!" and "reduced skill gaps!!" actually play at the higher levels in PVE though.

But, one can almost certainly dismiss anyone trying to argue this topic but only ever referring to "numbers of buttons". Even playing my class, I keep track of a number of abilities, procs, timings along with using 7-8 buttons in rotation for damage + 6 utility buttons.

And my spec is memed as one of those "3-button specs".

[Cyanu]

* Class Design is at an all-time low.

Most specs now are both incredibly easy to play and easy to master. The gap between a good player and a bad player has never been smaller

* The amount of handholding during questing is jaw-dropping

* Pruning is over the top

We haven´t got any meaningful (permanent) abilities since WoD and from now on every new ability/cool interaction we earn will be taken away from us at the start of a new expansion. Core abilities are turned into talents (Hammer of Wrath, Shadow Word: Death, Consecration...) which shows lack of ideas and lazy design. In the game´s current state, more buttons would indeed mean more engaging gameplay. Depth is gone.

* Everything is made to take longer without being challenging.

Yes, they changed the leveling process. But it is still just as brainless as before, only takes longer. There is no challenge whatsoever, except getting through the slugfest while accepting that three rotational abilities is all you have. What has become of old Combustion? Old Efflorescence? MoP engaging class gameplay? The game is being designed for half-wits and people with dysfunctional neurotransmitter circuits now. It is reflecting whats going on in the world in general. People are stupid and it is lucrative to cater to stupidity instead of trying to raise people to their senses and wake them up.

* BfA feels more like a patch than an expansion and everything is reused, but just has a new name

1) warfronts - similar to WoD garrison invasions

2) island expeditions - similar to legion invasions / invasion points

3) the whole setting up of our base in the new zone feels like establishing a garrison in WoD

4) the azerite system feels so much like the Netherlight Crucible. It also feels like a system meant to tax those who play multiple specs

5) right now leveling in BfA is just useless, you don´t become stronger, you don´t gain any cool interactions with spells or new abilities. There is no level 120 talent row. You just level because you have to. The road is compulsory. But in the past we at least got something along the way, be it new abilities, talents, artifact skills or cool interactions every 2 levels.

6) the whole Honor system is almost entirely unchanged. Most of the entire talent system is unchanged. Almost all specs feel the same. Even Prestige rewards stay the same. Keystone Master achievement rewards will stay the same, too. No new one for bfa +15 completion. Feels half-assed, rushed and characteristic of a game whose lead developer tries to manage the decline of, not to bring it to new heights

7) the whole time-gating fiasco will be more ridiculous than ever before. You might get a new item but you cannot upgrade it because your azerite level is not high enough so you have to wait weeks to be able to use it properly. Expect this to continue throughout the whole expansion. You receive a cool carrot but it will stay in your backpack and waiting for being able to equip it is like waiting for a timer to run out

8) it seems the game emphasizes cosmetic rewards more than anything. Sad that most people seem to have forgotten how cheap the current allied races actually look, the Nightborne in particular.


I could go on and on. Did I say that the game is becoming increasingly dumbed down? Oh yes, it is. But that´s to be expected, because humanity is becoming increasingly dumbed down, despite the fact that raising the level of one´s consciousness has never been easier...

not sure i see what you're talking about

-boss mechanics are either top or tied for the top in terms of complexity and there's no such a thing as a 1 button spam like in the past (lock spamming shadow bolt, mage spamming frostbolt etc)

-a number of pruned abilities are returning

-the idea that they can go on adding new skills in every xpac is funny to say the least, you do remember that we're heading into 8.0 soon right? how many skills and talent rows would we get if we continued adding stuff without ever pruning anything? and how would the gameplay look like?

frost mage opener: prepot/trinket etc, cast RoP: Ice Blast, Ice Nova, Ice Storm, Ice Ball, Ice Shard, Ice Bolt proceed to current rotation till all that recharge?... please you can add stuff for 2 or 3 xpacs after that things get weird and you need to keep the skill number realistic, ability bloat is a mistake for many reasons, skills should exist only if they add something meaningful to the class and not just for the sake of adding them, for instance if Rune of Power gets removed it would be an example of good pruning just like that stupid prism got removed

so far BfA seems like an effort to combine the best elements of past xpacs with the best elements of Legion (which was a phenomenal xpac for PvE) while this time throwing PvPers a bone, there's every reason to be optimistic, if not maybe you're in the wrong game but there's no better MMO out there so wrong genre i guess?...

[Cobaltius]

Long gone are the days of theroycrafting, min & maxing and hybrid builds, the glory days of WoW.