Battle for Azeroth: The Bad Game design and overcasualisation of a 15year old game...

[Siglius]

Are people really having trouble holding threat in the beta? I've tanked a ton of dungeons in the beta and had no issues holding threat.

I love how the title is "overcasualisation", then talks about how hard the game has gotten.

This thread is a fucking joke lmao. Blizzard is adding mechanics back into the game that they've removed in the past. But somehow they're making the game more casual? :thinking:

[Mafic]

I loved Threat tanking back in BC. But the game is different now, they decided to go one way, now they are trying to shoehorn back in threat. omg the shit storm that is brewing over this, and a few others, i don't think things are going to go smoothly after launch. Maybe not even for weeks past launch.

Threat changes + GCD + pruning 3.0.

Battle for Abilities...grab the popcorn because this will be the messiest expansion launch in WoW's history.

[Siglius]

From the OP's description we've got:

1.) Need crowd control.
2.) Tank needs precise timing.
3.) DPS needs to give the tank a few to several seconds to build threat.
4.) If DPS gets aggro then they'll die.

Sounds a lot like Classic or BC.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying Blizzard doesn't know how to make measured responses to perceived issues. Look at dailies from MoP, "Oh, there were too many? NO DAILIES IN WOD!"

OP is either completely clueless on how to tank or he's lying to get a reaction. I've not had to use CC a single time in all the mythic dungeons I've done during the beta. Anyone who has played the beta would tell you the same, I hate to refer to youtubers but Preach made a video on the subject like yesterday, I suggest everyone whos interrested go check it out. Preach isn't always the best source of information, but he's for sure better than random nobodies on a forum.

I've litterally only experience issues with threat during mass pulls if I decied to single-target something the tank didn't hit yet. In every other scenario you don't even notice the changes at all. These changes has been on the beta for weeks, but nobody noticed until recently, why do you think that is?

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Threat changes + GCD + pruning 3.0.

Battle for Abilities...grab the popcorn because this will be the messiest expansion launch in WoW's history.

Didn't you say the same for Legion? How'd that prediction go?

[vsb]

Learn to play? There's even built-in Omen now, LoL. Overcasualization, indeed.

[Aldo Hawk]

If I wanted to play chess ....I d subscribe for a chess game. WoW is still an MMOrpg....or isn't it?

Is wow a chess game?

Clearly i'm not asking about chess per se.

[FishtheFish]

So you decide to join the dungeon Que in beta, to test the "amazing" new changes. Finally after the long wait, you and four more like minded join the instance.
1st Trash pack - 2 dps dead , 2nd pack- again dps and healer dead, 3rd pack same again , 4th, 5th.....till the second boss, we needed to repair...
So, you communicate with your tank to see what's going on? Fellow tank guy links you the wowhead link about the threat changes.....
You read it! And as you read you realize that...in order for your fellow tankadin(in this case or any other tank in the matter) to build a decent AoE threat value.... it needs 5 FREAKING GLOBAL COOLDOWNS.....5 to 6 CANCEROUS seconds where you as a dps...should just WAIT!!!
And then you set off to start your own "slow to death" rotation and gameplay....while in the meanwhile you "pray" , that your tank won't get GCD locked mid fight and loose aggro.

It seems to me, that game developers , in order to "bump" or "boost" the life expectancy of their poor designs and the noncompetitive game content... oblige and condemn us to play as slow as a sloth.
First, by locking down your flow of the game through the "new" GCD system.
And second....since yesterday, they also decided to change the threat generation-preservation mechanism, to a "Burning Crusade" experience...making the game SLOOOWW....LIKE 12-13 years ago slow, where it was the case for a ton of classes, that they should actually stop casting and wait....just to avoid overaggro.
Back then , they used to say that the flow of the game was restricted due to technical issues concerning the game's engine and the servers. But today , they decided to throw in your face a 13 year old game design......without excuses.
I 've been playing the game for a very long time.....I ve been a raider since the original Karazhan /gruul's lair era.....up till now. I object the fact, to be forced fed 15 year old gameplay as "new" and improved....

No one is making you play this game

[Cyanu]

So you decide to join the dungeon Que in beta, to test the "amazing" new changes. Finally after the long wait, you and four more like minded join the instance.
1st Trash pack - 2 dps dead , 2nd pack- again dps and healer dead, 3rd pack same again , 4th, 5th.....till the second boss, we needed to repair...
So, you communicate with your tank to see what's going on? Fellow tank guy links you the wowhead link about the threat changes.....
You read it! And as you read you realize that...in order for your fellow tankadin(in this case or any other tank in the matter) to build a decent AoE threat value.... it needs 5 FREAKING GLOBAL COOLDOWNS.....5 to 6 CANCEROUS seconds where you as a dps...should just WAIT!!!
And then you set off to start your own "slow to death" rotation and gameplay....while in the meanwhile you "pray" , that your tank won't get GCD locked mid fight and loose aggro.

It seems to me, that game developers , in order to "bump" or "boost" the life expectancy of their poor designs and the noncompetitive game content... oblige and condemn us to play as slow as a sloth.
First, by locking down your flow of the game through the "new" GCD system.
And second....since yesterday, they also decided to change the threat generation-preservation mechanism, to a "Burning Crusade" experience...making the game SLOOOWW....LIKE 12-13 years ago slow, where it was the case for a ton of classes, that they should actually stop casting and wait....just to avoid overaggro.
Back then , they used to say that the flow of the game was restricted due to technical issues concerning the game's engine and the servers. But today , they decided to throw in your face a 13 year old game design......without excuses.
I 've been playing the game for a very long time.....I ve been a raider since the original Karazhan /gruul's lair era.....up till now. I object the fact, to be forced fed 15 year old gameplay as "new" and improved....

5 GCDs to build threat?... i highly doubt that, tanks should still generate ~4 times their damage as aggro, so even if a tank deals only ~30% of the DPS of an actual damage dealer threat shouldn't be a problem, tank DPS is not that low...

ps: i don't see any connection with the title and the content of the post, where is the 'overcasualisation'?

[Mafic]

BFA prepatch hits and you watch classes go backwards and then the QQ flows all over the internet. The effort to streamline classes is reaching the limit in BFA, because there are on legendaries or artifacts to cover up the pruning.

[Demeia]

There's probably been too many keystrokes and emotion wasted on this argument. It's clearly in the game but why, well, I don't think Blizzard has exactly said. I'm sure it's intended but is it actually testing a new threat system or are they testing something else--a different version of skittish, as a wild example. Or perhaps some other kind of threat tweak. Maybe they are just playing a "how bad would it be if we..." game.

They should know by now that players don't "get gud" they just give up. See Cataclysm.

[Ashtricks]

I'm not sure you understand that LEGION is the peak of casualization. Epics grow on trees, legendaries grow on trees, raid gear is given to you without raiding, etc. If anything, BFA is a huge step away from casualization. They're removing many quality of life adjustments that just made aspects of the game not matter. PVP is also suffering with the introduction of "Templates" which removes all choice for stats. They're making threat relevant, which it should be. I've been DPS since after molten core, and things like this separated the Good/bad DPS. The game in its current state is the worst it has ever been. Trash does not matter. Threat does not matter. CC does not matter. It's literally, PULL > AOE. Everyone can be on auto pilot.

You did not think this through.

I did think it through my friend.
I never praised legion, as the real hardcore shit. Also, as far as I remember the "Epics grow on trees" issue has been around since the WOTLK exp, together with the LFG engine that was then created.
Nowadays in beta gear inflation is exactly the same. Heroic dungeons drop 340 epics in every other boss .
But, what i am clearly saying is that the situation is not getting corrected with that kind of approach. I love the fact that tanks will need to up their game, and that the threat thing is an issue for a more improved gameplay.
On the other hand,getting cockblocked by design, from things like GCDs/aggro, or GCD/Target switch is not an improvement nor a groundbreaking idea. Especially when the only way to avoid it, is by downgrading your play even more and go slow and steady. This is not an improvement. "Slow and steady" is just playing it safe to get the job done love...you are not getting better nor more competitive with that kind of gameplay.
And don't "molten core" me love...Bad design was even then an issue, i did play as frost mage on Ragnaros...if you know what I mean.

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And where did you read that ALL skills now had a 1.5 sec cooldown? It seems like you've never heard about lower GCD classes. Plus, can I remind you that while you cry about GCD, all classes still get many skills not on GCD, even in BFA? No offense, but your answer only shows everyone that you got everything wrong. Everything is exactly the same, except for long offense CDs. At the moment, rogues have more than 70APM (check Simcraft) to make their best DPS and the changes of BFA only drop that down go to 70 APM. You can complain all you want but your APM is not going anywhere more than 2/3 lower compared to Legion and my point remains : you can bitch as much as you want about lower APM but that doesn't make the game less complex. Nowadays players wrongly believe that HIGH APM = SKILL which is absolutely WRONG. And believe me, this is a true plague, the real disease of WoW and the real reason of the dumbing down. These players who believe that a mmoRPG can't be fun if they're not facerolling their keyboard. Once external mechanics hit in, players are completely lost just like you were, according to your post, blaming random things for it, threat in your case but you and them will never question the APM god you've believed in during the past years...

1)Pet battles might be fun to for you m8!!! And they are part of an MMOrpg too.
2) Your 70APM candy is nothing but crap which you can not even back up with data.....cause
well
3)http://www.wowhead.com/news=283908/c...le-for-azeroth. There you can read which abillities are off the 1.5sec GCD rule and be informed before you 70apm anyone else.

[Reivur]

Well I've been playing since Vanilla Beta so let me so I actually remember some things about not being able to go all at once. And guess what, this wasn't so bad... at all!

Remember TBC dungeons where you had to sap / stun / sheep / whatever you could to cc mobs cause tanks couldn't handle the heat or generate enough aggro?

Remember Vanilla first raids where DPS had to wait around 5 tanks GCD to start DPS so tanks could keep aggro? (Oh the painful first few seconds of Onyxia fight where dps were told to only use autoattacks so Onyxia would stay on tank and don't move her ugly head and breath on the raid...)

Remember when Omen Threat metter was on everyone interface?

Part of being a good DPS is to know when they can go all out or just chill. Going all out at once and obliterating dozen of packs in an instant was just plain stupid.

Also remember that in the first weeks of an xpac, Dungeons seems far more difficult than they actually are since we need to adjust for the ilevel gap and potential new mechanics.

I will welcome a 15 years gamedesign if it mean more strategic fights were you actually HAVE to use all your class toolkit and re learn some basic mechanics.

Going to completely disagree with you right here. Note that I have no idea if OP is exaggerating as I haven't gotten to experience it, though it looks like neither have you. At no point am I going to complain about threat generation and managing one's threat because I play FFXIV on occasion and that game literally drills it into tanks that they should do an enmity combo and, if possible, ride the line with their dps combo inbetween.

Then there are certain mechanics that dump threat entirely or a WHM is forced to go ham, with ninja being the only misdirect available. In FFXIV they give classes enmity dump tools that you can use appropriately to make things work out.

This is something WoW is severely lacking currently. There's pretty much Hunter for threat management (Misdirect and Feign Death) and Rogue has Vanish; I don't think Warlock has shatter anymore... Invisibility, which for two of the specs has a timer before it takes effect (not to mention its CD is exhorbient for that purpose) That's... pretty much it. So "sit back and chill"; great. That's not particularly engaging-- that's frankly boring. But lets pretend that sit back and chill is viable. Now you're going to have people being even MORE impatient about "undergeared" tanks and wanting to /kick them from this often very toxic community towards pugs.

But the biggest offending "No" from me isn't even the lack of tools for dps/healers to manipulate and play around with threat with. My biggest nope is the amount of specs that are proc based being completely incompatible with sit back and chill. People already find RNG irritating at times. You know what's going to piss them off more? Scoring a proc and not being able to dump it because their tank doesn't have enough threat and watching it fade away. Vanilla/BC didn't have class design rely so much on flashing lights and procs into procs. We've been down that road sort of heavily since Cataclysm. If they really want threat to work out this way then they need to design DPS to be able to conform with it beyond complete lack of engagement.

[Ashtricks]

OP is either completely clueless on how to tank or he's lying to get a reaction. I've not had to use CC a single time in all the mythic dungeons I've done during the beta. Anyone who has played the beta would tell you the same, I hate to refer to youtubers but Preach made a video on the subject like yesterday, I suggest everyone whos interrested go check it out. Preach isn't always the best source of information, but he's for sure better than random nobodies on a forum.

I've litterally only experience issues with threat during mass pulls if I decied to single-target something the tank didn't hit yet. In every other scenario you don't even notice the changes at all. These changes has been on the beta for weeks, but nobody noticed until recently, why do you think that is?

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Didn't you say the same for Legion? How'd that prediction go?

Ooohh you "Mike"'d me!!!! So sweet of you. Now let's see how many videos of Preach, or any other streamer i can find and rub them in your face, that state the different thing....but i wont. Even Mike speaks clearly about the threat reduction issue on its own. What I am discussing is much closer to what Mafic said. The implications of the new threat system in conjunction with class pruning and gcd restrictions, that make the game feel dumb and slow, not unplayble. Also how mature of you to call me clueless , liar and random nobody m8...while first,you can not even understand what this post is actually talking about and second you can not even site the right sources to back up your shit and namecalling. I m starting to get the feeling that you spend more time on WoW streams than WoW itself.

[Loeko]

1)Pet battles might be fun to for you m8!!! And they are part of an MMOrpg too.
2) Your 70APM candy is nothing but crap which you can not even back up with data.....cause
well
3)http://www.wowhead.com/news=283908/c...le-for-azeroth. There you can read which abillities are off the 1.5sec GCD rule and be informed before you 70apm anyone else.

Sorry, I assumed you knew how to use google. Here's for you: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T21_Raid.html. I told you that rogues get over 70 and as you can see in the graph, Outlaws actually stand at 71APM.

Now, let's take your data (yeah, because some people take the time to check what others give them) and let's see the changes. The Outlaw gets two abilities on GCD, Adrenaline Rush (Full 1.5s GCD) and Bladefury (1s GCD). Let's take a 5 minutes ST fight: you will actually use ONLY two more GCDs in BfA and drop down to 70 APM. During a MT fight of 5 minutes, you will also use Bladefury 12 times at the best, meaning you'll be on GCD for 12 more seconds, dropping down your average APM to 65 (including the Adrenaline rush). Also, keep in mind that this BFA Outlaw APM calculation assumes that the player doesn't use any off GCD ability during the added time so in practice, the real APM might actually be higher.

If you take the slowest spec of the game, Assasssination, and do some maths, you'll see that it is pretty much the same. You'll use two more full GCDs in 5 minutes, making your APM drop from 39 (Legion) to 38 in BfA.

So are the fights slower? Yes. Are they much slower? No. Some classes get hit a little harder like the fury but things got fixed in the past two weeks and the GCD of Recklessness has been compensated with overall higher APM. For most of the classes, you'll mainly be using one less skill every minute. And in your case, based on your story, you definitely need that GCD to take the time to think about how to dps intelligently. Use that short time to think and figure out how not to wait 5/6 sec at the start of a fight because of threat. You're welcome and good luck

[MoanaLisa]

DPS having to manage their threat a bit is not a more casual style of play. As for things being a bit slower, it may bother you. It doesn't bother me so much and probably many other players who aren't fond of twitch mechanics. To each his own though. I don't mind an extra GCD now and then to move a little bit or to think ahead just a little.

EDIT: I do agree with Reivur that specs that are heavily proc based are going to have it harder than others. It's a good point.

[Dominus89]

So the problem is that you need to wait a few seconds and can't use all your CDs straight away? Okay.

[Satelliteyears0o]

In Vanilla, ALL abilities were on the GCD.

[HitRefresh]

Oh noooooo I have to think about what I'm doing in dungeons now instead of mash everything until it dies over and over as fast as I can!!!!

[bufferunderrun]

this change finally bring back the true role of tanks, generate threat to keep the mob away from the groups also if a tanks don't manage it's cooldown properly the risk for the healer to steal aggro with a big healing spell is real that put both dps and healer in need to rise their skill level.

hopefully this is the first step into the direction of bringing back the combat/stat system that was directly derived from rpg games more than the fire and forget way we had till legion.

[OreoLover]

The real consequencies will be longer queue times, as less people play tanks. And damage dealers in matchmade groups intentionally drawing aggro to troll the groups. And low ilevel tanks feeling weak because a +30 ilevel damage dealer overaggroes him.

And even after the queue, tanks will be kicked for not being able to hold aggro above speed-runners.

Looking forward with fingers crossed for baseline "Fade (Priest)" for all classes.

[Cwimge]

These things are being done to hold onto the "people" who buy into the classic server lie