~80% tank threat reduction on beta

[trm90]

Re-introducing threat management makes sense if they re-introduce threat management tools. Otherwise, yeah, it's going to be frustrating for anyone who's not a hunter/rogue.

[Celista]

It will make tanking more interesting and dps more smart... skilled dps will take target from tank like always.. bad dps will just pew pew whatever comes first.

This change will affect only bad players. As for the tanks its time for us to try and make a difference if we are good... rather than just stay there with only reason dps can epeen their dps meters...

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On the contrary... tank will once more be a valued part of the group rather than a low dps member you are "forced" to take with you just for bosses..

Actually, what you said made complete sense. People are complaining about feeling weak on the beta + forum threads where players are arguing why tanks are unnecessary = Blizz showing players why tanks are necessary.

[papajohn4]

Actually, what you said made complete sense. People are complaining about feeling weak on the beta + forum threads where players are arguing why tanks are unnecessary = Blizz showing players why tanks are necessary.

Thanks

At first threat was a mechanic of the game... tanks should be able to generate good threat and dps able to watch their aggro.

Then blizzard thought that it was not a good gameplay for dps players cause they couldnt unleash their full power andbe satisfied with their good gear ( i am not argueing this philosophy). And they increased the tank threat by a lot...

This on the other hand made tanks just a low dps role which was useful in boss fights because he could take more hits. There was no real satisfaction to get better gear as tank cause only thing you achieve was to make healer happier but not yourself..

Then blizzard tried to increase tank damage to make them more interesting choice for players (pandaria). The dps was once again complaining... first it was the threat mechanic.. now tanks are doing too much damage..

So blizzard nerfed tank dps, andbin exchanhe they added the "active mitigation" in the hopes to make tanking interesting... it turned out that active mitigation is not so active but just a smart handle of different cds.

The question for dps players is: do you only think of yourselves? Do you want to be the only role with fun gameplay in the expense of other roles? And if that is the case, why we are not all going dps?

I stopped tanking after pandaria(was playing tank from tbc all the way to pandaria)... now in bfa i seriously thinking to tank again.. if you dont want tank to be fun and interesting there will be less tanks overall..

[Wermys]

Thanks

At first threat was a mechanic of the game... tanks should be able to generate good threat and dps able to watch their aggro.

Then blizzard thought that it was not a good gameplay for dps players cause they couldnt unleash their full power andbe satisfied with their good gear ( i am not argueing this philosophy). And they increased the tank threat by a lot...

This on the other hand made tanks just a low dps role which was useful in boss fights because he could take more hits. There was no real satisfaction to get better gear as tank cause only thing you achieve was to make healer happier but not yourself..

Then blizzard tried to increase tank damage to make them more interesting choice for players (pandaria). The dps was once again complaining... first it was the threat mechanic.. now tanks are doing too much damage..

So blizzard nerfed tank dps, andbin exchanhe they added the "active mitigation" in the hopes to make tanking interesting... it turned out that active mitigation is not so active but just a smart handle of different cds.

The question for dps players is: do you only think of yourselves? Do you want to be the only role with fun gameplay in the expense of other roles? And if that is the case, why we are not all going dps?

I stopped tanking after pandaria(was playing tank from tbc all the way to pandaria)... now in bfa i seriously thinking to tank again.. if you dont want tank to be fun and interesting there will be less tanks overall..

My thoughts as well. Tanked BC Wrath Pandaria in 25 man raids etc as a warrior and druid. And TBH it started to suck during cat. Then got better during MOP in raids but still not great. But I missed BC tank threat when you actually had to go balls out on a warrior or druid watching multiple targets threat and making sure you market targets etc. Otherwise as I said, tanking got rather boring. Just watching for stacks, then taunting when needed etc. This might make me pick up my Druid/Warrior again.

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Also one other thought I had. Since we know vanilla is coming. One way they can gradually introduce threat back to not make it a complete and utter clusterfuck in Vanilla is to do it the expansion before we go back. Or at least try.

[WowIsDead64]

Ehhh. Sounds familiar. What could it be? Yeah... Of course. Cata. One of the biggest fails in Wow's history. BFA looks more and more like mix of most disastrous xpacks in Wow's history - Cata, MOP, WOD.

[therealbowser]

If this is a real change, it reminds me of Cataclysm. And look how that turned out.

Sure, it makes people 'think' more. But what's really going to happen is that it's going to hit everyone by surprise, expert and novice alike, and it's just going to be a gigantic shitshow. Even the people clamouring for it will eventually realize how tedious it is, and end up asking for changes.

It's a bad idea. A really bad idea. I'm a little disturbed that Blizzard doesn't realize that as well.

That said, I am lacking context. It really depends on how dramatic the difference is. If they want threat to be relevant again, at the very least I hope they plan on including powerful, valid threat reduction tools as well. I really don't see the need for this kind of change out of nowhere, however, and I can't see it being positive regardless of outcome.

[papajohn4]

I mean, Greg Street failed miserably with his idea to make dungeons more challenging in Catacylsm.

Why isnt blizzard learning from this?

If i could take a guess, and believe that blizzard does nothing without reason, it is just to slow down the character progression of dungeon finder players, which infact are a large part of WoWs gamers. At some point they will turn back aggro generation onto the old level.

The big problem for matchmaking pve players will be that queue times will skyrocket into hour ranges. Which will take away the fun of the endgame massively for those who do not participate in premade groups.

As i said, blizzard trolls the players who queue up.

I dont think they said they are going to make them difficult like early cata... they just change the threat mechanic which will just create a new playstyle. Dungeons will be more like MMO dungeons rather than Diablo hack n slash dungeons. DPS should take target from tank, use their tools (CC, Aggro dump, aggro transfer, self heal) to avoid difficult situations...

The gameplay will be much more interesting for both tank and DPS but not more difficult... Hunters and rogues will use their tools (tricks and misdirection), Mage will freeze/slow enemies and kite if needed, lock may use voidwalker on an add, priest might use mind control...

there are so many possibilities to use your abilities as a DPS, other than full damage...

Example: You are retri and tank pulls the next pack.. you start by spending your first - second finisher on Templar's Verdict on tanks target.. then you cast a divine storm, Templar Verdict, divine storm again.. Interrupt/stun a caster... you will find out how many divine storms you can cast instead of templars verdict..

otherwise you will just follow an rotation addon and do just your dps rotation and nothing else..

Also, classes that their aoe need some ramp up time (SPriest, affliction, maybe assassination rogue/feral druid) will be able to to see their dots/bleeds/poisons on the group last enough to not be worthlesss... so all dps will have their place on dungeons instead of the bursty aoe ones...

on the other hand tanks will be happy with gear updates because they will be better at holding aggro... they will be able to see a difference in their performance unlike now that the only one who feel the difference of a geared tank is healer.

People will adapt to the change... in FFXIV keep aggro as a tank is not as easy as wow (though is not hard either) but still if dps goes full aoe on the pull, it is difficult for tank to hold aggro... yet players there adapted to this and play very well, and I am talking about random matchmaking, not premade groups...

[Deleted]

As someone who has played a tank every expansion since TBC I am going to be switching to DPS. The threat reduction is going to lead to so much abuse and cancer that I am not even going to give it a try. The mindset of the game has changed allot over the years and good luck getting people to understand they can't go head first and comprehend why they got aggro.

[Rylalai]

This is the theoretical idea. While the practical outcome will be a blue equipped tank getting kicked from a group made out of epic equipped damage dealers.

Gonna ask you, at what point would a blue equipped tank be together with epic equiped damage dealers? Are we talking about random heroics with an tank who just hit 120 and some DDs in raid gear? Because that's literally a non-issue. I "tank" my heroics usually as frost DK because there's no need for having any tanks in the dungeon if everyone is way overgeared for the content. Meaning IF some raiders will be matched with a fresh 120 tank, they'll just don't give a shit and faceroll the dungeon while the mobs run wild.. For bosses even the blue tank should still be fine. If he does <1/4 (+Taunt modifier) in DMG of the damage dealers, then it's again a non-issue anyway as the boss will most likely die in a matter of seconds..

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

After testing tanks this week on beta 80% is far from the truth. Correct me if im wrong but 80% was skittish amount and losing threat at the moment still is very rare compared to skittish weeks. I at least found it very easy to keep threat as a paladin and druid.

[Rylalai]

I talk about matchmade dungeons and LFR. And no, DDs will not tank successfully in epic gear with a blue healer and a blue tank. Thats also not what their role is. Most people want speedruns, means no wipes, nothing they have to wait for.. which includes the fact that a tank either keeps aggro, or is being replaced.

That is the truth in WoWs gameplay. And not that DDs would just say "Oh, sorry, tank, well, then i will tank!". The real consequencie is a blue tank gets kicked.

It's not about DDs tanking, it's about the fact that at a certain point where people could be overgeared for content, there's absolutely no need for tanks anymore because the mobs just don't have enough HP.. As a long time player (tank, dd, healer), I honestly think your "doomsday scenarios" are absolute non-issues..

[Rylalai]

They have not been in Cataclysm, when dungeons were made difficult again, thanks to Greg Streets questionable hardcore gamer bias. In TBC, people preferred paladins as tanks, as they had strong AOE tanking abilities, and rarely lost aggro.

As I don't have beta access, are the current BFA dungeons more difficult compaired to for example Legion heroics? I only read of mythics being way overtuned during the initial testing.

Nevertheless, I think people will adapt to the changes rather fast. We're humans after all.. adaptation is one of our strong suits..

[Rylalai]

Well, we actually have to adapt. Or just not play the game anymore.

My adaption will be that i wont play a tank in BFA. And play my hunter. As people will love misdirection for dungeon groups.

And I'm looking forward to it and already leveled all tank classes to 110 as preparation for BFA because I'll definitely main a tank again.

[Ealyssa]

I tanked the whole week on beta. The sky isnt falling, at all. I maybe loose a mob sometimes in a pack. Nothing a focus and 1 spell cant take back. But really a non issue.

Played DH and paladin. DK will be next 120 this week.

And fun things. With the current "fragile" 120 scaling. Leting a dps die when they do something stupid is really easy Improving the didactic power of tanks.

[Gaidax]

I mean, Greg Street failed miserably with his idea to make dungeons more challenging in Catacylsm.

Why isnt blizzard learning from this?

If i could take a guess, and believe that blizzard does nothing without reason, it is just to slow down the character progression of dungeon finder players, which infact are a large part of WoWs gamers. At some point they will turn back aggro generation onto the old level.

The big problem for matchmaking pve players will be that queue times will skyrocket into hour ranges. Which will take away the fun of the endgame massively for those who do not participate in premade groups.

As i said, blizzard trolls the players who queue up.

The difference between now and then is that now dungeons have 30 difficulties as opposed to 2 total. I ran all dungeons in various difficulties in Beta and if that change is supposedly in Beta - I am just not seeing the big deal about it. Some here exaggerate the impact of this change and dungeons including Mythic play out the same as now.

Maybe there will be difference when everyone is geared to the teeth and waltz around with nuclear warheads tied to sticks as weapons, but then you will have eepteenth levels of M+ difficulty to go for and if you can't handle M+15 or your groups is too shit - you will go for M+10.

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As I don't have beta access, are the current BFA dungeons more difficult compaired to for example Legion heroics? I only read of mythics being way overtuned during the initial testing.

No, there is a couple of tricky bosses, but they are tricky mostly because they require people to know wtf they are doing, for example my fav - Yazma (which seems to have been nerfed handily since), and this is in short supply in Beta.

Basically as always you have bosses like Dantalionax, Hymdall or Cordana where people were stumbling over their feet at Legion launch being surprised by some oneshot-ish mechanics, but now can basically do in their sleep.

[Raxz]

I personally plan on subverting this change by just only playing healer in dungeons in BFA. As it just about ruins the game for both tanks and DPS outside of raids.

[Gaidax]

I personally plan on subverting this change by just only playing healer in dungeons in BFA. As it just about ruins the game for both tanks and DPS outside of raids.

Aye, the game is destroyed there mate - you can totally see people being unable to complete dungeons in Beta there and piles of dead DPS swarm the dungeon entrance... or not.

Everything is completely fine, this thread is your typical screamy click-bait title with little merit to it.

[Kalisandra]

I dont think they said they are going to make them difficult like early cata... they just change the threat mechanic which will just create a new playstyle. Dungeons will be more like MMO dungeons rather than Diablo hack n slash dungeons. DPS should take target from tank, use their tools (CC, Aggro dump, aggro transfer, self heal) to avoid difficult situations...

A good many DPS spec don't have these tools. A Frost DK certainly doesn't, for example, except a poor self-heal that involves hitting things - a really smart idea when they're pissed at you because you hit them already.

[Spazlord]

We used to tank with a threat mechanic, and it wasn't hard, I did plenty of shattered halls speed runs on my warrior and it was good times. Tanking without threat is fucking lol. I welcome it back.

If you go hard as a tank, you won't have aggro problems. Thunderclap + AFK is not enough, back then you would queue cleave on every attack and tab target a lot and you could hold 10 mobs against cleave DPS.

If this means bad tanks get called out, good. It should be made obvious if someone is playing abnormally bad, they can learn that way, otherwise they never will.

[papajohn4]

.....

you keep mention always cataclysm while we have no clues or evidence that this is the purpose of Blizzard. Cataclysm dungeons were not hard because tanks didnt have high threat... if I remember correctly, tanks did have a big boost on threat in cataclysm. The problem was that they tuned dungeons to be hard. We have no word about that for bfa though.. they didnt said they will make dungeons cataclysm hard...

Also I dont think that with 80% boost to threat things will be so dramatic... it will not be Vanilla or tbc again. It will just make the gameplay slightly more careful. Tanks will not cast a thunder clap for example and continue run through dungeon to pull other 2-3 packs while they still have aggro with just this thunder clap... they will just need to work slightly more on their threat.

Yes it will slow down the pace of the dungeon, but I dont think it will make it so much more difficult. I think it will mostly affect mythic+ runs, where you will need a good coordination to do things quickly and clean.

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A good many DPS spec don't have these tools. A Frost DK certainly doesn't, for example, except a poor self-heal that involves hitting things - a really smart idea when they're pissed at you because you hit them already.

that was always the problem of the fury warrior as well :P if all classes have the same tools, wouldnt be good!