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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Solkazo View Post
    Players have got better (lol) and thats a factor.
    Might (might) be true for the high-end mythic guild, but certainly not for the regular Joe.
    What would push him to play better ? Leveling is beyond a joke, 5-men are beyond trivial, LFR has the bosses nearly killing themselves to provide loot. The first time regular Joe will encounter any kind of gameplay will be if (not even when) he starts M+ or at least normal raiding.

    But somehow he's supposed to be a better player than the guys who played at the time where you needed a modicum of gameplay for everything ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slaskel View Post
    It's a combination of a lot of things, where mastering your class and mastering boss mechanics are two very good metrics. And it is an objective truth that it was easier to master your class during WoW's inception, and boss mechanics were too.
    No, it was just a different paragdim.
    Sure, the raid gameplay was pretty simplistic and easier, but that's because it was only a very small part of the game. 5-men and leveling gameplay were much more varied.

  2. #282
    Cataclysm had some of the hardest entry level content, that is one of the reasons that it failed as badly as it did. The casuals from previous editions didn't cope well with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divinexve View Post
    Man I miss vanilla only using frostbolt
    Locks spamming only shadowbolt, rogues only spamming backstab, and so many other one-button specs... Also, remember "waiting for mana" as something that was actually part of your rotation, either that or attempt to weave lower spellranks into your rotation to conserve mana... It really makes me appreciate modern WoW.

  3. #283
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    It is reflecting whats going on in the world in general. People are stupid and it is lucrative to cater to stupidity instead of trying to raise people to their senses and wake them up.
    Can't change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    I could go on and on. Did I say that the game is becoming increasingly dumbed down? Oh yes, it is. But that´s to be expected, because humanity is becoming increasingly dumbed down, despite the fact that raising the level of one´s consciousness has never been easier...
    Can't help it.

    What you can do is keep your own brain functional and developing. Just let lose of this game and play games with higher cognitive requirements. There are enough out there. Try Steam.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by slaskel View Post
    It's a combination of a lot of things, where mastering your class and mastering boss mechanics are two very good metrics. And it is an objective truth that it was easier to master your class during WoW's inception, and boss mechanics were too. Blizzard themselves have stated this on numerous occasions, and so have most professional guilds. Don the tin foil hat and argue against this if you want, I'm not gonna bother retorting though. Also, I would consider my several CE achievements and playing in a guild ranked below 800 in the entire world during Legion at least a small feather in my cap when it comes to being good at the game.
    I was talking about being a good player in terms of your class. And in PVE you will never use your class to its full potential. That why PVEers don't mind pruning so much, because big part of their skill comes from boss mechanics. In PVP the class design is the most important part and that's why pruning is ruining it. They are lowering the skill cap and make classes braindead easy compared to WotLK, Cata and MoP. But the problem is that there are no "boss mechanics" they can make harder to compensate the simplification of classes.

    PVP used to be about reactions to different situations. There was no rotation that you used. Your damaging spells had priority and sometimes had to be used in a specific order to get the best result, but you always had to react to every single spell your opponent used. It was like playing chess where you could make a move anytime.
    Now we've gotten to the point where you actually do your PVE rotation in PVP, because only thing you have to worry about is occasional kick or CC. And that really sucks, I had to level all the classes to max level during Legion, because playing one class in PVP gets really boring after a while. I feel like playing MOBA, I have to switch "heroes" often or I get bored and I can't even customize my stats because of templates.
    This has never happened to me before, not even during WoD when the pruning began.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Torrasque View Post
    Cataclysm had some of the hardest entry level content, that is one of the reasons that it failed as badly as it did. The casuals from previous editions didn't cope well with it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Locks spamming only shadowbolt, rogues only spamming backstab, and so many other one-button specs... Also, remember "waiting for mana" as something that was actually part of your rotation, either that or attempt to weave lower spellranks into your rotation to conserve mana... It really makes me appreciate modern WoW.
    In what sense did cataclysm fail? It was a very popular expansion until Dragon Soul came out. The only real issue before that was that arena pvp was unbalanced compared to wotlk. Everyone I know who played back then (and none of them still sub to WoW for obvious reasons) has fond memories of those cata dungeons.

  6. #286
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardoc View Post
    I was talking about being a good player in terms of your class. And in PVE you will never use your class to its full potential. That why PVEers don't mind pruning so much, because big part of their skill comes from boss mechanics. In PVP the class design is the most important part and that's why pruning is ruining it. They are lowering the skill cap and make classes braindead easy compared to WotLK, Cata and MoP. But the problem is that there are no "boss mechanics" they can make harder to compensate the simplification of classes.

    PVP used to be about reactions to different situations. There was no rotation that you used. Your damaging spells had priority and sometimes had to be used in a specific order to get the best result, but you always had to react to every single spell your opponent used. It was like playing chess where you could make a move anytime.
    Now we've gotten to the point where you actually do your PVE rotation in PVP, because only thing you have to worry about is occasional kick or CC. And that really sucks, I had to level all the classes to max level during Legion, because playing one class in PVP gets really boring after a while. I feel like playing MOBA, I have to switch "heroes" often or I get bored and I can't even customize my stats because of templates.
    This has never happened to me before, not even during WoD when the pruning began.
    I was only speaking PvE, I have never participated in PvP so I can't have an informed opinion, you are probably correct in your analysis when it comes to PvP.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Might (might) be true for the high-end mythic guild, but certainly not for the regular Joe.
    What would push him to play better ? Leveling is beyond a joke, 5-men are beyond trivial, LFR has the bosses nearly killing themselves to provide loot. The first time regular Joe will encounter any kind of gameplay will be if (not even when) he starts M+ or at least normal raiding.

    But somehow he's supposed to be a better player than the guys who played at the time where you needed a modicum of gameplay for everything ?
    he isnt. blizzard has long time ago given up on wanting people to get better - the exact point when paradigm shifted was between launch of cataclysm and dragon soul when they given up after huge fiasco that were hc dungeons in begining of cata - after Firelands both hc dungeons and new system aka lfr were easy modes.

    only thing that blizzard fucked up in my eyes was removal of vp gear. if it wasnt for desperate tries to get people into raiding (which failed as spectacularly as hard hc dungeons in cata) and thus appearance of mythic + you would never meet those people in game as they were more then happy to run easy dungeons 20 times each week for vp cap .

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by UltraNic View Post

    All the points you named here are connected with bad experience from YOUR point of view. I remember people crying about player housing, they wan't to set up their own guild houses etc. and they got Garrisons. Were they happy? Apparently not. I enjoyed the concept of the Garrison and ofc it's always room for improvement. Cosmetic items are a thing since Cataclysm and people wanted it so bad. You are talking about engaging gameplay and yet you complain about cosmetic items which give you the chance to create the character just like you want.
    Yes, there is a lot of improvement for BfA like new spells or new talents. On the other hand I think that it deserves a try, the game is getting only better, not worse and if you think that's not the case, well then you should play some older content (Wotlk, MoP) and then you will see how shitty it was compared to now. Your Post is the definition of pessimistic nostalgia-glasses.
    to be fair, I want player housing. Garrisons weren't player housing, garrisons were garrisons. Don't get me wrong I quite liked building up a base, but I didn't consider it housing in the slightest.

    Also my beef with garrisons (which I'm sure others had as well), there wasn't any real personal identity to it. My level 3 inn was exactly the same as thousands of others players level 3 inn. In addition to that, you couldn't customise how the buildings looked or their interiors. There wasn't anything unique about it and visiting friends didn't really feel like visiting somewhere new or exciting. Lastly, all garrisons were mostly the same. If you wanted to farm gold you had x y z building etc. There was really only three main set ups and no variations.

    Give us something like the houses we had in runescape classic. Customisation, 1 building, every house unique.

    Anyways in regards to the OP... We literally get the same shit threads every day. Everyone complains how every upcoming system is shit or lazy. Yet no one ever, ever offers a different idea to do something better.
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    Haters gonna hate

  9. #289
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    "Game is becoming increasingly dumbed down" "WoW is dying" "It should be easier to get flying" "Alliance wants High Elves"...

    We should pin all these threads so people don't feel they have to start new threads with the same titles as old threads.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  10. #290
    I feel like they're simplifying the game for the sake of being relevant in esports so spectators can understand the game

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    he isnt. blizzard has long time ago given up on wanting people to get better - the exact point when paradigm shifted was between launch of cataclysm and dragon soul when they given up after huge fiasco that were hc dungeons in begining of cata - after Firelands both hc dungeons and new system aka lfr were easy modes.
    No, the paragdim shift started in late TBC and ended with WotLK. Cata was just an attempt to do a partial backtrack, but Blizzard painted itself in a corner by having spent nearly three years of dumbing down the game massively and making people used to faceroll AoE spam.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    No, the paragdim shift started in late TBC and ended with WotLK. Cata was just an attempt to do a partial backtrack, but Blizzard painted itself in a corner by having spent nearly three years of dumbing down the game massively and making people used to faceroll AoE spam.
    thing is - and i assume its due to you not playing any mmorpgs prior to wow - vanilla was already a dumbed down ultra casual game compared to anything other on the market pre-2004 year. - if you did play back then you would know how many mechanics it was missing compare to other games of that time making it really really "dumbed down mmorpg"

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by lolpve View Post
    In what sense did cataclysm fail? It was a very popular expansion until Dragon Soul came out. The only real issue before that was that arena pvp was unbalanced compared to wotlk. Everyone I know who played back then (and none of them still sub to WoW for obvious reasons) has fond memories of those cata dungeons.
    Most people state that the long wait between expansions was much of the issue. Others claimed a loss of social intimacy that the game had and blame most of that on FLD and LFR. Additionally, the "Zul'again" patch was significantly lack-luster and force most people into playing all the original Cata dungeons to just two revamped dungeons. From there, then to just three dungeons in the Hour of Twilight patch. Mostly there was much end-game cata content that was simply useless to many players because of no scaling rewards. All that together simply pushed many players away. That is on top of extensive difficulty that simply left many players with nothing to do once reaching max level.

  14. #294
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Understarmor View Post
    1) class design being at an all-time low doesn't mean you have more or less spells to "press" stop being a moron and read...
    2) he is right, the pruning is fucking ridiculous now that after coming back from a two-year hiatus, I had 3 spells on my bar and the rest were talents.
    3) questing is more hand holding than ever and it's not ALWAYS been hand holding, stop trying to make a point by just saying the opposite of everything he said because you disagree
    4) you're just quite the moron aren't you?
    You going to show me your class where you have 3 spells on your bars? Or like usual are you just goign to make huge claims and never back it up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Polygons View Post
    I feel like they're simplifying the game for the sake of being relevant in esports so spectators can understand the game
    A plausible theory but I don't believe it's possible to make WoW any more relevant in eSports than it already is. The game, and honestly many MMORPGS as a whole, are fundamentally different in gameplay than your other classic eSport games which keep them from being mainstream.

    It would take some extreme simplification of WoW in order to make this happen, and even then, they'd really have to force it to what I believe would be an immense detriment to the game.
    Aurilias - Stormscale
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  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by lolpve View Post
    In what sense did cataclysm fail? It was a very popular expansion until Dragon Soul came out. The only real issue before that was that arena pvp was unbalanced compared to wotlk. Everyone I know who played back then (and none of them still sub to WoW for obvious reasons) has fond memories of those cata dungeons.
    Most of the net loss in subs during Cata were before DS released. After DS released subs stabilized for half a year.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #297
    The kind of stuff i could pull of on a warrior in arena in say cata or tbc is way above what i can do know.

    taunt a pet to hit you out of trap, spellreflect a sheep, intervene a friendly warlock pet to get on top of the mage, than charge his blink. shattering the iceblock, heroic fury the nova, fear the healer, intercept the mage again and execute it? yeah you could make plays like this in 3vs3 situation.

    Nowadays i dont do 3vs3 or any arena anymore, but watching the warriors in the blizz cups is so pain in the ass.

    And the most fucked up part is the templates.

    I used to love to think about gearing for pvp, what trinkets, what talents, what setup with sockets and which off pieces ,which playstyle with what combi, and so on. This theory crafting lead me to be the world highest warrior in season 5 (op dk /pala season) 2vs2 for nearly a month. I used a armor pen trinket from nax, i had luck on 2 axes from kel thuzzad (25 in main, 10 man naxx in off after week 1), and went to town as fury together with my shaman mate i had over 3k 2vs2games in tbc experience. we killed every single pala /dk team out there by just waiting for a trinket proc, some windfury and unload into this proc. nobody else did this (there were rankinglists back than), and it made so much fun, to farm all pala /dk teams and the occasional exploshot stun hunter/pala with Shaman /Fury Warrior. 2.3 k rating i only reached in tbc 5vs5 before

    Yeah im gonna tell you guys ab out our legendary tbc 5vs5 setup: it involved a healer shaman, a ms warrior (me), a shadowpreist, a frost mage, a bm hunter, We killed everything, our shaman had a lvl 60 darkmoon card that revived him occasionally (or better said pretty often, felt like 30 % of the time). Blood lust and go. we farmed everything out there, and a lot of games that would have been lost, the darkmoon card saved us. (well until the 1800 triple healer double warrior came and -29 points)

    Hillarious and fun stuff like this doesnt exist anymore.

    Nowadays i get flamed for cheating and kickbotting because on my shaman i do interrupt a lot of cyclones and outplay a very stupid (but 2.2k+ rated) resto druid when doing a few games with a friend just for fun and for old times sakes. Well back than, i wasnt a good shaman, i was mediocre, never made gladiator, only duellant material. but jesus the ratings are sooooo inflated. and people are so entitled. But the actual gameplay is soooooooo much poorer than it was.

    A warrior with 20 % mastery from template. let me lough. A shaman with grounding as a talent on a 45 sec cd, and a magic dispell. Shamans are the class you have to play perfectly defensive to avoid cc, for all partners, because shamans are the healer class that can dispell magic. So if u played shaman back than (pre cata), und log on now, it feels so dumbed down, and you automatically outplay all the new shamans just from positioning and interrupt /ground play allone, even so this playstyle is absolutely tumbed down now with shock cd doubled, frost shock taken away, hex added, and a freaking long cd on grounding. I fucking grounded/ spellreflected 70 - 80 % of deahtcoils in tbs / wotlk, because you just knew when it would be coming.

    When was the last time you saw a warlock coiling himself?

    Wow pvp was huge fun up to like cata, and still fun up to mop. but after that? i never did anything anymore, because it got soooo tumbed down.

    I want wow pvp to be good, engaging, and fun, but the templates and the inability of good plays to make a difference took out every single bit of interest from me.

    In wotl up to Cata i Used to duel daisyduke (alex) a lot in front of stormwind, hes the mage from abc, european team in the cups (although not too sucessful right now) . i played a lot of games against him in arena, (also he was like 150-200 higher rating most of the time) and he is one of the best mages i know. Our warriior /shaman was VERY good at killing mages, except him. He was so good, had so much sense, was so dogdy (yes there was a time when mages socketed dodge in wotlk) He is a thinking player too, innovating stuff (orc mage with blink instead of shimmer vs combat rogue game 2 weeks ago, it was their win against a very strong opponent), watching this game just reminded me of how wow pvp once was. I was loughing at the stream how the combat rogue was trying tu stun the mage and the mage just blinked away, you really see how the rogue was tilting because the mage blinked away from stuns. Thats what mages did for 12 years in wow, u newb rogue. (rant).

    Im nowadays pvp retired, and seeing a positional and tactical awesome player like daisyduke (this guy could solo control 10 horde guys on eye of the storm and basically allow the team to capture everything) struggling in the modern meta, only because he doesnt have the toolkit to shine with his excellent gamesense and knowhow and timings makes me sad.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Polygons View Post
    I feel like they're simplifying the game for the sake of being relevant in esports so spectators can understand the game
    Yeah that's a great idea. Lets destroy the game for everyone that enjoys improving at video games (including and especially the players that compete in these esport events) just so that we can possibly increase the pathetically low and insignificant portion of the fan base that watches and financially supports the tournaments for this dying 14 year old game.

    Seriously how do you guys come up with this nonsense? If Blizzard actually makes decisions based on this kind of rational, then there is truly no hope for this game.

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