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  1. #101
    Afraid of RNG? That's a rather antagonistic and stupid way of putting it. All games have RNG to some degree and some have substantially more than others but until World of Warcraft, I had never encountered RNG that was put on a timer to appease a small portion of players who measure their self-worth by the virtual items they have obtained.

  2. #102
    I am afraid that now, with the forced personal loot on Raids in BFA, the game name will be changed to World of Lottery

  3. #103
    When RNG makes it so you are not competitive in a raid environment, it's a problem. When the algorithm is screwed up, so that the lucky people are mathematically granted more "luck," then you have a problem. RNG wasn't the problem, RNG mixed with broken legendaries was the problem.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Great, although there's no need to "imagine" that. It used to be like that, and it was amazing. That way when a new raid releases, everybody who cleared the previous raid is on equal footing again(more or less).
    Do you have any posts or clips etc which shows that TF has been a determinant factor to wether a boss was killed World First or not?
    Only thing i've read is that bosses has been overtuned and later nerfed, and just practicing the fights and dedication got them the kills.

    Yes i know that MoS runs was a thing in the beginning of legion, but is no more a thing and was not for the later part of ToS/Antorus...

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup View Post
    Do you have any posts or clips etc which shows that TF has been a determinant factor to wether a boss was killed World First or not?
    Only thing i've read is that bosses has been overtuned and later nerfed, and just practicing the fights and dedication got them the kills.

    Yes i know that MoS runs was a thing in the beginning of legion, but is no more a thing and was not for the later part of ToS/Antorus...
    It hasn't been a determining factor, but it shouldn't even be a factor at all. Maw runs had very little to do with titanforging, but just because they're not a thing now doesn't mean they weren't a problem.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    What an absurd thing to say.
    I don't say absurd things. Which means you missed the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Guilds going for world/region firsts absolutely benched people based on legendaries. If you have a DH with Anger and one without it at launch, you bring the one with Anger. That's not immaturity, that's picking the player who will get you the best chance to kill a boss. There's a reason a bunch of people in those guilds levelled multiple characters early on to play the one which got luckiest.
    So are you saying that they dumped players from their raid team and recruited new players who got lucky with legendaries? Or are you saying that they stuck with their team, and at critical moments chose their lineup based on who happened to have the best gear from their lineup?

    At the end of the day, yeah sure, luck with drops is going to play a factor in determining raid lineup, as it has always been since even before legendaries. But there is a difference between sidelining players and managing your bench effectively.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup View Post
    What i gathered so far from this thread is "I don't want to put in work to achive something, i just want things handed to me" :P Don't get me wrong, forcing someone to have a certain legendary is bad game design, but TF isn't really that big of a deal, since several guilds are downing bosses without full TF gear. Imo the TF is what actually brings me back to the raids, i cba to do something if i can't be rewarded or someone can be rewarded, imagine if there was no WF/TF, your raidgroup gets the standard items, now you are done. Sure TF shouldn't interfere with next raids ilvl, but they are aware of it.

    EDIT: my point is, there is way less RNG than before, when you could get items with shit stats, Spirit/Str combo etc, the stats are set on every item, they don't vary, imagine if bosses had the chance to drop loot like the once you can get from WQs, like trinkets, main stat + random secondary stat, that would be annoying i get :P
    There's a very important difference between "wanting things handed to me" and "feeling like I spent the amount of time that I should have and still not been rewarded for the thing I needed".

    Let me give you an example. Let's say you work a job, 40 hours a week, and the standard pay for whatever your position was, was set at a certain worth, a set value, like... $20 an hour. After one week, you'd be owed $800, and let's say for the purposes of this hypothetical that taxes aren't a thing. Maybe you work under the table, whatever, point is, you are owed $800. So let's say you work a week and you don't get paid. It's unusual, but you shrug and you keep working, you figure maybe there was just an accounting error or something. You work the next week, and you still haven't been paid. Now it's starting to bother you quite a bit, BUT, it's a good job and you feel like you can't afford to lose it, so you work another week and at the end of it you STILL haven't been paid. Now you complain to your superior, to the accounting department, but you still like the job so you work one more week, and at the end of THAT week, you STILL haven't been paid.

    That's how getting fucked by RNG feels. You're doing the work, you're doing the content, but week after week you've got nothing to show for it. You must be out of your goddamn mind, if you've never had an instance where it's happened to you, where there was a single item that you desperately needed, and week after week, it refused to drop for you, or other raid members kept getting it and you didn't, and the thought entered your mind "why the fuck am I doing this same thing, over and over and over, and coming out with nothing to show for it?" Listen, maybe you have a zen-like patience, and that's fine, but for me and many others, it's infuriating.

    If I wanted "something for nothing" then what I'd be complaining about is having to enter the raid at all. I'd be demanding that every epic simply be put on a vendor that charges 1 copper per item, that I can peruse at my leisure and grab anything my heart desires. That's not what I'm asking for. What I'm asking for, is to be able to have SOME way to avoid situations where I've ran the same raid for eight fuckin' weeks and STILL not gotten the thing I needed. I'm asking to avoid situations where a HUGE percentage of my DPS revolves around a single item that's difficult, if not impossible, to acquire. I'm asking to avoid situations where I don't get Roar of the Seven Lions for two goddamn years. I'm asking to be expected to DO the content, and be rewarded FAIRLY for it. I'm asking to NOT get a fucking AP token EVERY single time I use a bonus roll token, to the point where it feels weighted to only give gear 10% of the time. It's fucking ridiculous. I feel like I'm not being adequately rewarded for my time and effort. What I'm being rewarded with, is months of doing the exact same thing over and over and over again, only to be rewarded with a slot machine that maybe, just MAYBE, MIGHT deign to spit out something, that isn't even good for my class, as a reward for the weeks I've put into it.

    And on that note "when you could get items with shit stats", are you fucking kidding me? You're telling me you've NEVER gotten an item with BOTH of your worst secondaries on it? REALLY? That's NEVER happened to you? I find that hard to believe.

    I feel like at this point you're just kind of... shitting on people with different expectations than you, pulling that whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" routine on people, for a thing that's supposed to be a fucking HOBBY. Most of us don't get paid to do this. It's what we kill time with, and what we kill time with isn't even giving us a requisite level of satisfaction in return for our time investment. Maybe you think it's fine, but plenty of other people think they're getting fucked over, and just because you think they're wrong, it sure as shit doesn't mean you're right.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    If a competitive guild is NOT sidelining players because they have bad legendaries, they're not a competitive guild.
    There is a difference between sidelining and benching. If a guild is doing the former, then I'd suggest that's a silly, short-sighted strategy and a sign of a bad guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    If competitive guilds are sidelining players because they were unlucky with their legendary rolls (something players predicted since the announcement of the distribution system), that speaks to poor design. Speaking of which, where are legiondaries in BFA??? I'm surprised they wouldn't continue such a successful system in the next expansion.
    I never said the system was successful. It's no secret that there has been very strong vocal opposition to the legendary system and that is reason enough to abandon the idea regardless of whether the system had real merit or not. But don't worry, I am sure you guys will find some other hobby horse in BfA to moan incessantly about because you always do

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just1c3 View Post
    And on that note "when you could get items with shit stats", are you fucking kidding me? You're telling me you've NEVER gotten an item with BOTH of your worst secondaries on it? REALLY? That's NEVER happened to you? I find that hard to believe.
    Oh it has happend, but not from an instance/raid, since the stats are set most of them, but i didn't say it had not happend to me, but i put a scenario that imagine a boss could drop ANY trinket from that expansion, with random stats on, THAT would be bad RNG :P

  10. #110
    Deleted
    Because it is something over which I have no control. I despise things based on luck.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup View Post
    ...Imagine if you run into an instance/raid and get fully geared instantly...
    Sounds good, sign me up.

    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup
    ...why would you want to go back there again...
    I don't go back now. I don't enjoy dungeons or raids. I usually go once to see the story but then I'm done.

    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup
    Are you just bored of gaming?
    No, but running the same content over and over is very boring which is why I don't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup
    Bored of the game?
    Again no, I choose to do other things rather than down the same bosses every week.

    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup
    Why?
    Because RNG is not fun. It keeps people playing longer... at least until they can clear the current content. After you've done it... why would you ever do it again? You beat it... more gear is just superfluous at this point. And there will always be another gear treadmill coming. Instead I focus on things that are account-wide like pets or mounts. Most of which can be obtained way after the content was relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup
    ...so im just wondering, why are you afraid of RNG?...
    It's not fear... it is what keeps me playing and avoiding burn out by avoiding the RNG as much as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup View Post
    Oh it has happend, but not from an instance/raid, since the stats are set most of them, but i didn't say it had not happend to me, but i put a scenario that imagine a boss could drop ANY trinket from that expansion, with random stats on, THAT would be bad RNG :P
    The stats ARE set, and SOMETIMES, the stats are set to where a certain item is set to have the WORST secondaries for your class. They have to spread the stats out that way, because your worst two secondaries are the best two for somebody else. Still feels bad when you get saddled with an item that's dogshit for you. When you get an item that's 20~ ilvls higher, but Pawn still says it's a DPS loss for you because your current piece has huge Mastery and the "upgrade" doesn't, that feels bad EVERY damn time, and it's happened to me MANY times throughout Legion.

    I'm just asking, there's GOTTA be a better way to make it easier to more efficiently pursue your BiS list rather than just hoping and praying that maybe, just maybe this time is the time that your bonus roll is actually gonna give you the thing you want.

    And with all raids being personal loot no matter what no exceptions, this problem is only going to get worse in BfA. Hoping for token rolls is gonna be the only source of 90% of everybody's gear, and it's gonna feel frustrating and terrible.

    If you enjoy running the same shit over and over and over and over, and not getting your BiS chestpiece eight, nine weeks in a row, then more power to you, but to me that seems insane. Eventually you've GOTTA get sick of it, either that or you're the Dalai Lama.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just1c3 View Post
    The stats ARE set, and SOMETIMES, the stats are set to where a certain item is set to have the WORST secondaries for your class. They have to spread the stats out that way, because your worst two secondaries are the best two for somebody else. Still feels bad when you get saddled with an item that's dogshit for you. When you get an item that's 20~ ilvls higher, but Pawn still says it's a DPS loss for you because your current piece has huge Mastery and the "upgrade" doesn't, that feels bad EVERY damn time, and it's happened to me MANY times throughout Legion.

    I'm just asking, there's GOTTA be a better way to make it easier to more efficiently pursue your BiS list rather than just hoping and praying that maybe, just maybe this time is the time that your bonus roll is actually gonna give you the thing you want.

    And with all raids being personal loot no matter what no exceptions, this problem is only going to get worse in BfA. Hoping for token rolls is gonna be the only source of 90% of everybody's gear, and it's gonna feel frustrating and terrible.

    If you enjoy running the same shit over and over and over and over, and not getting your BiS chestpiece eight, nine weeks in a row, then more power to you, but to me that seems insane. Eventually you've GOTTA get sick of it, either that or you're the Dalai Lama.
    Can inform you that there is a higher focus on Main stats in BfA than Legion, which is good, and i agree, you shouldn't need to run some simcraft to know if an item is better than your current etc

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I never said the system was successful. It's no secret that there has been very strong vocal opposition to the legendary system and that is reason enough to abandon the idea regardless of whether the system had real merit or not. But don't worry, I am sure you guys will find some other hobby horse in BfA to moan incessantly about because you always do
    So basically you admit the system was by no measure a success... in fact I would think it's fair to say it was a MASSIVE failure and one of the most hated features of the xpac. Yet you still say we're "moaning incessantly". That's what tends to happen when you have a dev team like this one who flat out DOES NOT LISTEN to Alpha feedback, Beta feedback, or live feedback (at least until it's too late and it's the next xpac). That's why the game has been going downhill so fast. They are WAY TOO SLOW to recognize bad ideas and EVEN MORE SLOW to fix them. In this case, the "fix" for this awful system was just leaving it COMPLETELY out of the next xpac.

    I'm sorry, but I and many others won't support a game with a dev team that incredibly egotistical and inflexible.

  15. #115
    Farming stuff for chances isn't fun. Diablo isn't fun, and is a poor example because hardly anyone plays it, plus the heavy RNG aspect of that game is often referred to with disdain in other games.

    I highly preferred getting legendaries in prior xpacs, where you had to farm materials and do quests for weeks vs getting them in Legion, where I just got them or I didn't. I got one from a goat that I accidentally aoe'd, didn't feel very legendary. RNG everything sucks the fun out of having a goal and earning something.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup View Post
    Can inform you that there is a higher focus on Main stats in BfA than Legion, which is good, and i agree, you shouldn't need to run some simcraft to know if an item is better than your current etc
    Blizzard said the same thing going into Legion. And then again in 7.1.5 when they changed a bunch of stat related stuff... causing the exact opposite effect. I'll believe it when I see it, because so far there's no reason to believe it. And even if they succeed, that also makes gear less interesting. If it's always just "ilevel wins", you barely ever get to make any "choices" at all, because WF/TF means very few of your available pieces will have the same ilevel. WF/TF is the problem, and instead of just getting rid of it, they're fighting symptoms of it.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2018-06-05 at 05:00 PM.
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  17. #117
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    Many things wrong with what you say.

    Afraid? No one is afraid, but gambling is a scheme. Surely you understand that. It's designed so the house always wins. You are being taken advantage of.

    The opposite of RNG isn't get everything instantly. It's play the game to get the rewards you deserve. Badge systems, for example. There's lot's of game design on RPG's that doesn't rely on a rare drop or use the system but shower you with loot to the point you are likely to get what you need without much fuss. Actually i dispute the notion that RPG's having RNG loot systems is the norm. Many just have a town where you purchase the new gear with currency from playing the game, particularly gold. That is the norm, not the RNG. The rng was only present in games like Diablo. But, if you play any JRPG, there was nothing of the sort, and WRPG's only came much later.

    Finally, why is getting the gear the only fun you can have? The game should feel fun to play by itself, it should be rewarding before any rewards come into play. The rewards reinforce the feeling of accomplishment, but the fun shouldn't come from it. If it does, then the game isn't very good.
    RNG certainly doesn't make it more fun. A progressive rewarding system is more rewarding and flexible than having to do a specific dungeon multiple times until what you need drops. According to the OP, that is fun. I disagree. I like my effort to be adequatly rewarded, not be a freaking roll of the slot machine.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by zetitup View Post
    I see alot of posts with ppl saying it's too much RNG, RNG this, RNG that.
    RNG is a huge factor of RPGs and i have no problem with it at all, so im just wondering, why are you afraid of RNG?

    I mean, take Diablo 2 for example, people are still hunting that perfect rolled item, it adds replayability etc.

    Imagine if you run into an instance/raid and get fully geared instantly for example, why would you want to go back there again if you didnt know you could get an upgrade, even if it's a very small chance? Are you just bored of gaming? Bored of the game? Why?
    Diablo isn't WoW, and Diablo doesn't belong in WoW. Too much RNG hurts the community, causes burnout, and breaks guilds. In a game like WoW, people need an artificial stopping point for their character's progression (and there are many examples as to why this is the case). LGN has way too much RNG on top of RNG. Also, RNG upgrades counter the same argument that they used for the removal of flying.
    Last edited by In Ogres We Trust; 2018-06-06 at 10:09 AM.

  19. #119
    Because people are spazzes. They "need" the best gear. They hate seeing people get luckier than them. Unless you are in the top mythic guild of your server doing a 100% perfect rotation and competing against 1 other person for the final raid spot, 5 ilvls isnt gonna make a difference.

  20. #120
    if there's too much RNG
    you dont feel rewarded for performing well and lose motivation to play

    it's not exactly rocket science

    there's of course good RNG and bad RNG.

    stuff like a proc which makes your rotation more dynamic (like hardcast pyro, the sub setbonus etc) is good RNG

    then there's stuff like poison bomb

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