Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Darththeo]

It is not subjective, it is objective, as Ion specifically mentioned the population issue for Alliance High Elves twice after Void Elves were announced. You may have a subjective opinion on that, but his objective stance as game director overrules your guesswork.

Swing and miss ... doesn't contradict the counter. Strike one.

Given that the franchise has been predicated on Orcs versus Humans and then Horde versus Alliance since it's inception, it is NOT subjective to say that duplicating a race available to one side in it's entirety to the other side would not damage the faction wall. Nothing would be a more egregious breaching of that wall as such a duplication, and to say it's a matter of opinion as to whether that would be the case is not a subjective opinion but wilful denial of the blatantly obvious.

Existing damage caused by the Void Elf/Nightborne issue IS subjective as while the models were switched, they are not duplicates. Nor are the themes of either of those races identical to the parent, which is arguably more important that the themes be kept faction unique. Even if the faction wall was damaged by the Void Elves/Nightborne, it was not broken.

And if it DID do damage, why does that justify doing worse? It does not, any more than a crack in a dam demands a wrecking ball be taken to it to finish the job.

And any potential future damage is, at this point, neither objective or subjective. It is speculative and cannot be commentated on.

Swing and a miss. Strike two. Doesn't negate the faction wall has been weakened. It is objective it has been weakened therefor it is open to potential other weakening.

I documented my steps and reached my conclusion based entirely on what you yourself wrote. It's the pro High Elf endpoint. Screw the facts, Blizzard can change the game if they want to and if we complain enough we will.

Strike three ... you are out. You didn't do anything of the sort, you inserted into what I stated and answered the strawman you made.

[Obelisk Kai]

Swing and miss ... doesn't contradict the counter. Strike one.



Swing and a miss. Strike two. Doesn't negate the faction wall has been weakened. It is objective it has been weakened therefor it is open to potential other weakening.



Strike three ... you are out. You didn't do anything of the sort, you inserted into what I stated and answered the strawman you made.

You know all you did there was state a personal opinion without any supporting evidence to the contrary. This is the problem with the entire pro High Elf position. An opinion without supporting facts is not an argument, it's an opinion and a hopelessly uninformed one at that. As you have REPEATEDLY proven with your own 'responses' here. Time and time and time again I ask for a shred of evidence to back up what you are saying and each time you simply state your opinion without that evidence as if that is good enough.

It isn't.

This isn't an argument, it's you point blank refusing to face the facts because you've a feeling in your water or something like that.

[Darththeo]

You know all you did there was state a personal opinion without any supporting evidence to the contrary. This is the problem with the entire pro High Elf position. An opinion without supporting facts is not an argument, it's an opinion and a hopelessly uninformed one at that. As you have REPEATEDLY proven with your own 'responses' here. Time and time and time again I ask for a shred of evidence to back up what you are saying and each time you simply state your opinion without that evidence as if that is good enough.

It isn't.

This isn't an argument, it's you point blank refusing to face the facts because you've a feeling in your water or something like that.

Yes, because that's all you are doing. You repeat your opinion and what facts you feel support it. Your facts didn't contradict the facts I stated, they are just other facts. You see "Population isn't high enough, per dev" ... but also per dev "Here is a small group of radical blood elves that you can play" ... those two facts are true, which one do you put faith in is subjective.

Faction wall has been crossed and likely will continue to be crossed. This is a fact, but you only care about the "Per dev, faction wall is important." They choose something based off story and balance. Again, it's what fact you put your faith in.

This is my problem with Anti-Helfers is they think they are being objective or worse that they are right, when you just frankly aren't. You are doing pretty much exactly the same thing as Pro-Helfers. This argument is subjective and the sooner you realize that the better. You have already admitted no argument will sway you because you have discounted the Pro-Helfer argument as whining. You are here to troll that that's it.

[RangerDaz]

Just passing by to say that my support for alliance high elves hasn't ended and will continue for many months (and years) to go

Hope that in the expansion after BfA we will have a pleasant surprise! (allied races version 2: alliance high elves, wildhammer dwarves, forest trolls, etc...)

[FlubberPuddy]

Faction wall has been crossed and likely will continue to be crossed.

It's not even a "likely" it for sure will be crossed. John Hight as already expressed that their plan is to give whatever thematics are prevalent on one faction to the other and vice versa. So no longer will Alliance just be for "pretty/cute races" and no longer will Horde be the "monstrous, tough, ugly races". This can already be seen by Alliance seeing "tough/ugly races" (LF D - tough, KT Humans - tough, possibly ugly to some) and Horde receiving "pretty races" (Nightborne, soon Zandalari) and potentially a "cute race" through Vulpera should that pan out.

Seems like their plan currently is going to be to allow someone who only plays one faction to have various thematics so they don't feel the need to "go play the other" even though it's been something they've encouraged as well lol.

You are here to troll that that's it.

Nah it's more to discourage this discussion from continuing, he wants pro-helfers to feel like they're asking for the impossible and have no basis at all through in-game evidence and out-of-game evidence in what they are asking for.

While completely ignoring that there are many many examples of where Blizzard has said they won't do this or that and later on they changed their mind.

And that's completely ignoring too that Blizzard didn't even say "No" to High Elves, just "no plans near term."

So if Blizzard can go and change their mind on things they've outright said "No" to then I'm not sure why Obelisk is somehow taking the response to mean "No forever". Actually I don't even think he does believe it's a No forever because he has to continually come in here and dissuade the High Elf discussion from continuing.

And his whole "see the only thing pro-helfers can say is 'it can change in the future!'" as if that lessens the discussion or arguing for it somehow? Everything that people talk about when it comes to additions to the game that currently isn't in now can be reduced down to that basic phrase, I don't see what is lost or lessened by reducing this request, let alone any request, to that?

The difference is that some requests have evidence for those making a claim and some requests do not. For Alliance High Elves, there is plenty of in-game evidence that provides those making the claim with ample ammo.

I remember someone mentioning about if they want to play their "Malfurion fantasy on Horde" they cannot do that. Well of course they cannot, but where is the ample amount of evidence being showcased on Horde side that would allow one to have a stake in making that claim in the first place? And this is where anti-helf positions fall apart, because there is no situation comparable or remotely similar to the situation of what the Alliance High Elf pro-group is asking for.

This is a situation that is unique completely to one factional group of elves on one faction's side completely.

Ion himself even liked this tweet: https://twitter.com/MrBravi/status/9...705609217?s=19

"I'm some disappointed about HE is not happening. I hope in the future you can make it happen for all the players who love them and want them as a playable race on the Alliance <3. Keep with the amazing work."

"BuT iT's JuSt AnOtHeR pLaTiTuDe" -- The pro-helfers who were upset by Ion's response were mainly upset that they weren't acknowledged by the points that were brought up. This acknowledgement is great enough because it shows he at least knows there's a group that loves High Elves on Alliance side and hopes one day to see them playable.

[Strippling]

And that's completely ignoring too that Blizzard didn't even say "No" to High Elves, just "no plans near term."

Blizz tend to use this response anytime they're asked about something but they have no intention of actually developing. It's a polite way of saying no.

I remember someone mentioning about if they want to play their "Malfurion fantasy on Horde" they cannot do that. Well of course they cannot, but where is the ample amount of evidence being showcased on Horde side that would allow one to have a stake in making that claim in the first place? And this is where anti-helf positions fall apart, because there is no situation comparable or remotely similar to the situation of what the Alliance High Elf pro-group is asking for.

If somebody really wanted to nit pick they could make a case for "Malfurion fantasy on the Horde". Off the top of my head, supporting evidence could include:
- the joint NE and Orc efforts in fighting the Qiraji. I believe this group were called the Might of Kalimdor and were led by Varok Saurfang;
- both NE and Tauren in the Cenarion Circle.
- NE are descendants of the Trolls. So there is actual ancestral relations between the NE and some races of the Horde.
- Broxigar (an Orc) fought alongside the NE in the War of the Ancients. They even erected a statue in his honour.
- Horde races tend to be more naturalistic and connected to the earth than Alliance races. This is a common bond they share with the NE that most Alliance races don't.
- NE and BE are biologically related. Although they currently dislike each other they could easily be rekindled with some lore love. Blood runs thicker than water (ie. Red runs thicker than Blue, double ie. Horde runs thicker than Alliance )

The above dot points are just a few concepts that could be used to support "Malfurion fantasy on the Horde" or "NE fantasy on the Horde". I'm sure someone else could come up with others.

However, despite the subjectively strong cases I've listed above, adding the "Malfurion fantasy on the Horde" would blur faction lines, which is a core aspect of WoW. Hence, if that's what we want then the Alliance is waiting for us.

On a side note, how can the NE hate the Horde for invading their forests, when they initially took this land from the Trolls? All land is Troll land

Ion himself even liked this tweet: https://twitter.com/MrBravi/status/9...705609217?s=19

"I'm some disappointed about HE is not happening. I hope in the future you can make it happen for all the players who love them and want them as a playable race on the Alliance <3. Keep with the amazing work."

I've bolded the section that Ion liked.

[FlubberPuddy]

Snip

You just proved my point even more Thanks.

[Elysia]

Sooo, been gone for a few days and things haven't been great in here.

As a reminder, if you're in this thread just to argue with people for liking/wanting a thing and saying they are dumb/ignorant for liking/wanting a thing, don't. If you have productive/useful/non-crappy commentary to add, feel free. But if the sole reason you are coming into this thread is to start arguments, it's not going to end well.

[FlubberPuddy]

Some more proof that Void Elves carry on a legacy from Blood Elf society and are Blood Elves, from the comic interview.

https://www.wowchakra.com/battle-for...va#english-q-a

"Despite being on opposite sides, Alleria and Sylvanas have both stood up to be leaders for a group of people who have been outcast. . . .

Steve: Yeah—another one of our Allied Races in Battle for Azeroth is the Void Elves, and as you say, they are another group of outcasts from what is now the blood elf society. Alleria sees them as like-minded people and decides to champion them—which is essentially what Sylvanas did for the Forsaken. But do Alleria and Sylvanas see that commonality? It’s often hard to recognize what those closest to you are going through. And sometimes you’re just too locked into your own perspective."

They also comment on how the first page panel of the comic is something that comes up later. So three sisters are together for a moment.

The response in reference to Void Elves and Blood Elves can give an avenue of differentiation to High Elves under Vereesa. Since it's mentioned that Blood Elf society is just that, a society of Blood Elves. Perhaps the High Elf society can yet further evolve from the divergent path it took from the initial High Elf/Blood Elf split.

[RangerDaz]

As a reminder, if you're in this thread just to argue with people for liking/wanting a thing and saying they are dumb/ignorant for liking/wanting a thing, don't. If you have productive/useful/non-crappy commentary to add, feel free. But if the sole reason you are coming into this thread is to start arguments, it's not going to end well.

I love you!

/hug

PS: This message should have been given on the night of the last Q&A made by Ion, lol

[Obelisk Kai]

I love you!

/hug

PS: This message should have been given on the night of the last Q&A made by Ion, lol

Wanting something is fine and is perfectly understandable.

But that doesn't mean the desire should pass without comment or opposition, particularly in regards to the fundamental objection I and the other Anti High Elf posters have, an objection that is sustained by a considerable body of evidence and commentary in support.

That High Elves are already playable as part of the Horde as Blood Elves, that Void Elves are a variant of a High Elf for the Alliance, and that it is impossible to differentiate an Alliance High Elf from a Horde Blood Elf without it still remaining a High Elf.

As a result, the request for an Alliance High Elf is a request for an exact duplicate of a core Horde race. This renders the request for an Alliance High Elf unique among almost all potential race suggestions and by far the most controversial.

[cocomen2]

They said there not gona be any classic servers, BUT here we go.
If we gona whine long enough - i bet HIGHT ELFS would be added eventualy too.

[Obelisk Kai]

They said there not gona be any classic servers, BUT here we go.
If we gona whine long enough - i bet HIGHT ELFS would be added eventualy too.

Well at least there is an honesty about the plan even if I remain unconvinced by the prospects for success. Saying Blizzard broke once and can be expected to break always seems foolish and indulging in false hope. If you doubt that, try and fly in Kul Tiras the first day of the expansion and behold the success of the pro flying movement.

[Iflash]

I really want High Elves, but I think the half-elf idea would be interesting. They already set it up in Suramar when Elisande called them out for "diluting their bloodline". You could have Arathor as their leader, and Vereesa's children as important figures as well. They could age them up a bit, like they did with Anduinn.

[FlubberPuddy]

I really want High Elves, but I think the half-elf idea would be interesting. They already set it up in Suramar when Elisande called them out for "diluting their bloodline". You could have Arathor as their leader, and Vereesa's children as important figures as well. They could age them up a bit, like they did with Anduinn.

Half-Elves could be an interesting idea, and if they were implemented in a way so that they were the future of the Quel'dorei that resided on Alliance side (aka they're the children grown up of parents from the Silver Covenant, Highvale, etc) then I would be all for it. People already meme about "human potential elves" of the Alliance so why not the race that is actually part human and part elf? Plus it would set them apart from any other race in being the only "half" race playable in existence.

Unfortunately, based on the Three Sisters comic revealed today, it seems like that will still be wayyy far off from happening, Vereesa's children are still way too young so we can surmise possibly that other Half-elves too (notwithstanding Arator) may be too young as well?

Anyways I'm on board if they happen as I laid out above, that'd be a fine compromise, a real compromise at that!

But good to see that Vereesa still lives and this is now the THIRD time we have a character mentioning about reuniting even the Blood Elves themselves with the Alliance.

Doubt it will happen, but if this leads to something elf-focused it will be interesting to see what the outcome of all the lead up would be.

I wonder if Blizzard will do some more character improvement with Vereesa since she's now severely lacking in power compared to her sisters (although it makes sense since she is "Little Moon" anyway). But like how they gave Alleria Void Powers to make her relevant enough to stand on her own, wonder if the same will happen to Vereesa?

All in all, good to still see High Elves sprinkled about in BfA, maybe they will become a possibility after an expansion or two, when it comes time for Alliance to gain more elven Allies again.

- - - Updated - - -

Well at least there is an honesty about the plan even if I remain unconvinced by the prospects for success. Saying Blizzard broke once and can be expected to break always seems foolish and indulging in false hope. If you doubt that, try and fly in Kul Tiras the first day of the expansion and behold the success of the pro flying movement.

It's not even "broke once" though. There are many examples of Blizzard outright saying No to things at an earlier point in time and then later adding them. Transmog is another huge one.

I saw in a poster's own signature one time, lists of all the things "Blizzard said no to" that we now have today. To think that this one comment on "No High Elves near term" is 10000% truth and will hold forever is a different form of denial in itself.

The difference between the High Elf request and the pro Flying request is that High Elves now have a stronger possibility of happening under the newly released Allied Races feature. Something that completely changes the landscape for which races can become a potential Allied Race or not.

The "pro-flying movement" isn't an apt comparison because it's people trying to go back to a time when Gold was a good enough "natural" time sink for Flight (the time it took to gain enough gold for flying would take most people many months to a year back then). That's impossible now with the amount of Gold people can make in-game now with other avenues such as buying gold through WoW Tokens.

Pro-flying crowd either can't understand or don't want to understand that Gold purchased flight was done because the time it took to make the gold was enough of a time sink. Since the landscape has changed now, Pathfinder is now the adequate time sink that Blizzard is in favor of.

Pro-helfers do understand, and have always understood High Elves couldn't happen so soon after Void Elf release. All the recent speculation/brainstorming on High Elves was entirely made from the outset of being something to be implemented much later on, after 2.0's of other races. Whether some did want them immediately or not doesn't affect the majority that understands they would have to wait longer.

And unlike for the pro-flying crowd, where Blizzard has stated that pathfinder is the way forward they want to go in regards to flying. Blizzard is still continuing there "not at the moment" trend for High Elves. Another difference is that pro-flying say "no matter what we want flying purchased through Gold again and available on release!"

Pro-Helfers at least go "ok Blizzard says High Elves aren't happening right now due to A, B, and C. Let's use what we know about High Elves to avoid A, B, and C and use their D, E, and F instead."

Huge differences not that you can see this since you have me on ignore though. But this post is more for others not as engaged in the conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

They said there not gona be any classic servers, BUT here we go.
If we gona whine long enough - i bet HIGHT ELFS would be added eventualy too.

I'm also pretty sure this is why they still keep Vereesa and the Silver Covenant around and dispersed into main storylines now and then. It's clear when it comes to almost anything elf related, if not all things elf related, that she or her army are there. You don't keep a consistent group like that around unless you have plans for them some time down the line.

Is there any NPC Group that's not a playable race Blizzard has continually progressed with through expansions that hasn't culminated in something happening?

[Garfurion]

Is there any NPC Group that's not a playable race Blizzard has continually progressed with through expansions that hasn't culminated in something happening?

Wildhammer Dwarves - Around since vanilla. Wildhammer stronghold in Outland with WC2 hero Kurdran (TBC). Council of Three hammers between Wrath and Cata. The Twilight Highlands quest line in cataclysm for Alliance was literally to unite the Wildhammer Clans under the Alliance banner which would have been the perfect introduction for them as an Allied Race if Allied races had existed in Cataclysm. From what I've read they play a pretty significant role again in BfA.

There are actually a lot of similarities between Wildhammer Dwarves and Alliance High Elves in that they are long-time members of the Alliance (going back to Warcraft II), significant presence in zones/quest-lines, have major lore figures appearing both in books and in-game and are not playable in terms of game mechanics despite being high on the list of requested (sub-)races.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder if Blizzard will do some more character improvement with Vereesa since she's now severely lacking in power compared to her sisters (although it makes sense since she is "Little Moon" anyway). But like how they gave Alleria Void Powers to make her relevant enough to stand on her own, wonder if the same will happen to Vereesa?

Vereesa will probably undergo some fel-infusion at some point (probably against her will).

There are 6 major sources of magic listed in Chronicle (Life vs Death, Shadow vs Light and Order (arcane) vs Disorder (fel)).

Alleria is the sister of Shadow and her partner is Turalyon who is associated with Holy/Light.
Sylvanas is the sister of Death.

Since Rhonin was clearly associated with Order/Arcane thus it only makes sense for Vereesa to become the sister of Disorder.

Of course this means Sylvanas must have a secret consort of Sylvanas associated with Life/Nature ? some yet unknown Zandalari troll druid maybe ...poor Nathanos

It only makes sense that after Blizzard turned Blood-Elves into classic tolkien High Elves, that Alliance High Elves become vampiric and fel empowered (like demon hunters) so they can fight fire with fire.

[Zulkhan]

Sooo, been gone for a few days and things haven't been great in here.

As a reminder, if you're in this thread just to argue with people for liking/wanting a thing and saying they are dumb/ignorant for liking/wanting a thing, don't. If you have productive/useful/non-crappy commentary to add, feel free. But if the sole reason you are coming into this thread is to start arguments, it's not going to end well.

I mean, I'm not even sure to whom this "warning" is aimed to, since you must have probably noticed how in the last few days this thread has simply turned into very little more than a mere debate between a single Pro-High Elfer and a single Anti-High Elfer, who are simply and endlessly reiterating how they think the other one is wrong.

[FlubberPuddy]

Wildhammer Dwarves - Around since vanilla. Wildhammer stronghold in Outland with WC2 hero Kurdran (TBC). Council of Three hammers between Wrath and Cata. The Twilight Highlands quest line in cataclysm for Alliance was literally to unite the Wildhammer Clans under the Alliance banner which would have been the perfect introduction for them as an Allied Race if Allied races had existed in Cataclysm. From what I've read they play a pretty significant role again in BfA.

There are actually a lot of similarities between Wildhammer Dwarves and Alliance High Elves in that they are long-time members of the Alliance (going back to Warcraft II), significant presence in zones/quest-lines, have major lore figures appearing both in books and in-game and are not playable in terms of game mechanics despite being high on the list of requested (sub-)races.

- - - Updated - - -

Vereesa will probably undergo some fel-infusion at some point (probably against her will).

There are 6 major sources of magic listed in Chronicle (Life vs Death, Shadow vs Light and Order (arcane) vs Disorder (fel)).

Alleria is the sister of Shadow and her partner is Turalyon who is associated with Holy/Light.
Sylvanas is the sister of Death.

Since Rhonin was clearly associated with Order/Arcane thus it only makes sense for Vereesa to become the sister of Disorder.

Of course this means Sylvanas must have a secret consort of Sylvanas associated with Life/Nature ? some yet unknown Zandalari troll druid maybe ...poor Nathanos

It only makes sense that after Blizzard turned Blood-Elves into classic tolkien High Elves, that Alliance High Elves become vampiric and fel empowered (like demon hunters) so they can fight fire with fire.

Ah okay, I wasn't thinking of WHs when making that post but you're right! Was trying to see if there was any race Horde side that did as I described. Seems like this situation is unique to the Alliance.

Even the latest comic, Three Sisters, has both Vereesa and Alleria going back to the Alliance as they leave. The comic, as people requesting Alliance High Elves do, showing again that Blizzard continues to use High Elves and the Silver Covenant (ie keep them relevant).

The way the comic was going, as people theorized, could've had Vereesa die there at that moment and "dampen the HE movement" (as some would put it). Didn't happen though. I think it shows Blizzard has plans for em much much later.

I don't really think Vereesa will go Fel, that just what made the Blood Elves, Blood Elves. The starkest difference between the remaining Quel'dorei and the now Sin'dorei is super easy to see: One heavily relies on magic, the other not so much.

This can even be seen with the Blood Elves allies the Nightborne, another race of mana heavy elves that are just purple.

If Horde can get a race that similar, Alliance should be able to as well. And this wherein comes the whole "Wild Elves" idea that is making High Elves become a bit more similar to their Night Elf brethren - though not completely. So then we'd have just like Nightborne and Blood Elves who are 2 mana based elves, the High Elves and Night Elves who are more woodsy based elves.

Anyways, wherever the storylines lead, right now the Quel'dorei are the "blank slate of elves" just as Stormwind Humans are the "blank slate of humans" and we see the different iterations of them through Worgen, Kul'Tiran, and one could argue even Forsaken.

[Darththeo]

Wanting something is fine and is perfectly understandable.

But that doesn't mean the desire should pass without comment or opposition, particularly in regards to the fundamental objection I and the other Anti High Elf posters have, an objection that is sustained by a considerable body of evidence and commentary in support.

That High Elves are already playable as part of the Horde as Blood Elves, that Void Elves are a variant of a High Elf for the Alliance, and that it is impossible to differentiate an Alliance High Elf from a Horde Blood Elf without it still remaining a High Elf.

As a result, the request for an Alliance High Elf is a request for an exact duplicate of a core Horde race. This renders the request for an Alliance High Elf unique among almost all potential race suggestions and by far the most controversial.

I don't define Blood Elves as a core Horde race. How often are Blood elves the forefront of the Horde? One patch in MoP and the rest they act as a support troop. If you define core as main race played, I personally reject that pointless definition.

And yes, you can object ... but that isn't what you are doing. You are constantly informing people they are wrong without evidence. You think you have evidence, but you really don't. So please listen to the mod and stop.

[Obelisk Kai]

I don't define Blood Elves as a core Horde race. How often are Blood elves the forefront of the Horde? One patch in MoP and the rest they act as a support troop. If you define core as main race played, I personally reject that pointless definition.

And yes, you can object ... but that isn't what you are doing. You are constantly informing people they are wrong without evidence. You think you have evidence, but you really don't. So please listen to the mod and stop.

Blood Elves are a core Horde race by virtue of the fact that they are selectable as one of the starting races and because they constitute the biggest chunk of the Horde player base. Saying that the Blood Elves aren't a core race is to bring in yet more personal bias, that the Horde should just be Orcs and Trolls and Tauren sitting in the desert grunting, and defies the reality of the modern Horde as multi-racial, multi-cultural and multi-thematic, a Horde with an undead elf Warchief...in contrast to an Alliance that is mono-thematic and human dominated.

I also refuse your assertion that I have no evidence. I have produced plenty of evidence supporting my points and assertions. It is your inability to refute the evidence I have provided, to instead default to the standard pro High Elf modus operandi of attacking the evidence of the Anti High Elf side because the pro High Elf side has nothing to argue on, that is currently driving the debate. Time and again I have asked for something in game, something concrete said by a developer, anything to support the pro High Elf point of view. Because you cannot, you are determined to drag the entire debate onto a purely subjective platform where opinions are equal.

I will not tie my hands in this debate to cater to the weakness of your position. If you cannot accept the reality of the game as currently constituted, that is your problem and not mine. Your denial of the facts of the case don't render them any less true, no more than denial of the Earth being round by the flat earthers renders the earth less round.

The pro High Elf argument always boils down to the same result, the same plan. I don't even have to use my own words this time, I can use those provided by another pro High Elfer.

If we gona whine long enough - i bet HIGHT ELFS would be added eventualy too.

Nothing to go on except that desire, that wish. At least cocomen2 is honest about the plan.