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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Player Twelve View Post
    Race as is often touted is a social construct, yes. US people are talking about "brown people" from middle east or north africa while in European countries they're considered white. If we were to consider them not white because there's more people with tanned skin among them than among north europeans, what should we consider the south europeans? Not white too? That's pretty offensive.
    wat.

    every european bitches at me when i say i consider middle easterners white, and i'm american.

    where the hell you get that europeans think they're white?

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    wat.

    every european bitches at me when i say i consider middle easterners white, and i'm american.

    where the hell you get that europeans think they're white?
    By actually living in a European country? We don't consider them to be European, they're not European but they are white.

    Here, quote from another person living in Europe:

    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    "Xenophobe" works and is sufficiently damaging.

    Reality is that a great deal of people targeted by what you call racism are white. Though not in any American understanding of whiteness. Semitic, Arabic, Hebrew peoples are white. We tan and get a light shade of brown like any southern European, and become rather pale when mostly living in northern countries. As far as skin tones go, we're largely indistinguishable from the native white. And then you have a host of Eastern Europeans who are also the target of bigotry while being just as white.
    They target us for our ethnicity, nationality, religions and cultures, but not the skin color.
    You may want to broaden the concept of race. And that is an American perspective that may or may not work over there. Here, arguing that tanned people are another race is highly offensive towards southern Europeans, and by extension a large portion of the new-ish immigrant demographics.

    It often is used as a subterfuge to hide bigotry. That's for sure.
    But we have words that possess the same sway as "racist", and avoid the damaging effect of bundling people who are white into the "brown people" category.
    "Xenophobe".
    Use it.
    Last edited by Player Twelve; 2018-06-06 at 05:05 PM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    wat.

    every european bitches at me when i say i consider middle easterners white, and i'm american.

    where the hell you get that europeans think they're white?
    I think that's illustrative of the point though - that race is a construct, not a biological marker.
    No one can agree on what "white" and "black" and "of color" mean across cultural groups and nations.

  4. #124
    One look at the map of the world and you'll see Egypt borders on the heavily traded Mediterranean sea and Red Sea.

    When I think of Ancient Egyptians, I see them in a more darker olive-like complexion.

    The darker skinned people are sub-saharan, mostly.

  5. #125
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    as we know how Tut-ankh-amun looked like, here his famous step mom:



    Nofretete

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    as we know how Tut-ankh-amun looked like, here his famous step mom:



    Nofretete
    Is it damaged or was she portrayed as high on drugs?

  7. #127
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Player Twelve View Post
    Is it damaged or was she portrayed as high on drugs?
    Because as we know, all art is made to be 100% realistic and stylistic license is never taken.

    Especially during the Amarna period of all things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Well this topic sure is a shit show.

    History Channel? Wow...

    Egyptians were most likely descended from a mixture of Semitic and other Mediterranean peoples. Yes, there were blacks in ancient Egypt, but they were not the basal population.



    Not as such, no, but there is an interesting theory that when the Hyksos (most likely a confederation of Semitic tribes from the Levant) entered Egypt, Hebrews may have been among the confederation, who came in first as migrant laborers (not slaves), and then ended up taking over Egypt for 100 years or so before being driven out.




    Bollocks, considering Turks are for the most part genetically identical to Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds. You know, the natives of Anatolia. The central Asian Turkic admixture is there, sure, but the bulk of their lineage is from local populations. And Greeks are not that dark. There are Greeks who are blonde and blue-eyed. My grandfather was one. Hell, not all Turks are even that dark. I've known plenty of Turks from the Istanbul area that could fit in as European. I had a boss named Ali, the guy had grey eyes and strawberry hair.

    Now yes, there was a small amount of admixture with Slavs in parts of northern Greece (Thrace and Macedonia). But it's more accruate to say that Turks are mostly Greek, Armenian, and Kurd rather than the other way around.



    There were people almost everywhere by that point, it's not very impressive. I think what they are referring to is more advanced cultures, the sort of thing you'd call a civilization, not just neolithic farmers or hunter-gatherers. Hell, farming entered the Balkans before spread to the rest of Europe around 6000-7000 years ago, but again, can we really call if a full civilization at that point?

    https://www.livescience.com/19924-ag...th-europe.html

    An analysis of 5,000-year-old genetic material from preserved human remains found in Sweden suggests that people moving from southern to northern Europe spread agriculture across that continent long ago.

    In addition to agricultural know-how, the intrepid farmers brought their genes: They interbred with hunter-gatherer communities to create modern humans living in Europe today.

    "Genetic variation of today's Europeans was strongly affected by immigrant Stone Age farmers, though a number of hunter-gatherer genes remain," study researcher Anders Götherström, of Uppsala University in Sweden, said in a statement.

    The results of this study, to be published in the April 27 issue of the journal Science, match up well with previous archeological evidence of farming in Europe.

    The researchers studied the remains from four humans, one found on an ancient farm in Gökhem parish, likely belonging to a member of the agricultural Funnel Beaker culture. Less than 250 miles away, a second set of remains from three humans were unearthed on the island of Gotland, from hunter-gatherers of the Pitted Ware culture.

    "We know that the hunter-gatherer remains were buried in flatbed grave sites, in stark contrast to the megalithic sites that the farmers built," said study researcher Mattias Jakobsson, also from Uppsala University. "The farmer we analyzed was buried under such a megalith, and that's just one difference that helps distinguish the two cultures."

    Researchers already knew a fair bit about these different cultures and the excavated remains, though nobody had looked at their genetics. In the new study, the team analyzed the bones' genetic information to see how the humans differed from each other genetically as well as from other modern humans.

    The group analyzed thousands of genetic markers from each Stone Age individual. The genetics of the hunter-gatherer sample looked similar to that of modern northern Europeans (from countries like Finland), while the genes isolated from the Stone Age farmer looked more like modern southern Europeans who live along the Mediterranean Sea.

    Interestingly, these ancient genomes don't share many similarities with modern-day Swedes, despite their discovery and excavations in Sweden.

    These southern Europeans, who were genetically distinct from the hunter-gatherer societies in the area, seem to have brought their agriculture knowledge north, where they made their homes and likely interbred with hunter-gatherers in what is now Sweden. [10 Wedding Traditions from Around the World]

    "When you put these findings in archaeological context, a picture begins to emerge of Stone Age farmers migrating from south to north across Europe," said study researcher Pontus Skoglund, a graduate student at Uppsala University. "And the result of this migration, 5,000 years later, looks like a mixture of these two groups in the modern population."

    This finding agrees with previous reports on the age of farming. Researchers think that agriculture emerged about 11,000 years ago in the Near East before reaching Europe about 5,000 years later (about 6,000 years ago in total). The new study supports this idea and suggests that farming was first introduced to southern Europe before it spread north about 1,000 years later.

    This spread of agriculture also seems to have been a movement of people, and as a result introduced new genetic diversity into northern European communities.

    "The results suggest that agriculture spread across Europe in concert with a migration of people," Skoglund said. "If farming had spread solely as a cultural process, we would not expect to see a farmer in the north with such genetic affinity to southern populations."

    I appreciated this post. Thank you for droppin' some knowledge.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by staticflare View Post
    Why do people constantly deny this race of being black
    That moment when Egyptian became a race...

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Hmm, makes me think, if Akhenaten's religious reforms had some effect on the Levant's religious development over time?
    Old Freud's theory about the origin of monotheism.

    Widely discredited by almost every scholar today.

    The main problem is that the "Israelization" of the area takes an incredible ammount of time. Israel can not be considered a true monotheist state until the IV B.C. after the elites are forced to rethink their religion in the exile at Babylon. For many ,many centuries (including the mythical age of David and Salomon) Israel ( as in historical Israel) is a polytheism where the worship of Yaweh live together with the worship of El,Baal,Ashera ( we have archeological evidence,we have kings in the VI A.C naming their children "the servant of Baal") so the evolution is no polytheism to monotheism in the 1200bc-1000bc ( we can not even set an exact chronology) but polytheism -> enotheism( many gods but one above all of them) -> monotheism.

    If Freud was right and Moses was really a follower of Akhenaten who led a group of egyptians into exile after the pharao's death and in that journey joined another tribe in the Midian area worshipping a volcano god named Yaweh that history took barely a millenium to be set in the Hebrew thinking.

    How do we explain this? How do we explain this history has been dormant for centuries and then suddenly rise up?

    I don't know. Not that I pretend to set the truth about the origin of monotheism in MMO-C when it has been discussed for centuries but I just don't see it.

  11. #131
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primi View Post
    Old Freud's theory about the origin of monotheism.

    Widely discredited by almost every scholar today.

    The main problem is that the "Israelization" of the area takes an incredible ammount of time. Israel can not be considered a true monotheist state until the IV B.C. after the elites are forced to rethink their religion in the exile at Babylon. For many ,many centuries (including the mythical age of David and Salomon) Israel ( as in historical Israel) is a polytheism where the worship of Yaweh live together with the worship of El,Baal,Ashera ( we have archeological evidence,we have kings in the VI A.C naming their children "the servant of Baal") so the evolution is no polytheism to monotheism in the 1200bc-1000bc ( we can not even set an exact chronology) but polytheism -> enotheism( many gods but one above all of them) -> monotheism.

    If Freud was right and Moses was really a follower of Akhenaten who led a group of egyptians into exile after the pharao's death and in that journey joined another tribe in the Midian area worshipping a volcano god named Yaweh that history took barely a millenium to be set in the Hebrew thinking.

    How do we explain this? How do we explain this history has been dormant for centuries and then suddenly rise up?

    I don't know. Not that I pretend to set the truth about the origin of monotheism in MMO-C when it has been discussed for centuries but I just don't see it.
    Keep in mind also that the idea that Judaism began as a monotheistic fate is in of itself a historical culture narrative designed to give the worship of Yahweh a greater level of prestige. The cult of Yahweh and its focus on monolatry was by and large implemented as part of a state effort to impose religious uniformity, exactly as happened with Constantine and Nicene Christianity several centuries later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Gael4 View Post
    It is 80% of genes that can vary between humans. Scientifics actually do use these kinds of figures because it's much more telling than saying "they are from two very different tribes as they only share 99.96% of their genes."

    When comparing between species we take into account all genes, when comparing between humans we only take into account genes that can vary from one person to the next. Regardless there was plenty to attack in the OP if that's what you want, just not his made up number of genetic overlap.
    But that doesn't make sense either - the difference within populations account for 85% (others say 70-100% - and it also varies between populations) of variability in human DNA; the variation between populations is just 15% or so.

    Thus 80% similarity in human DNA between ancient Egyptians and a group of modern humans is both meaningless (what is the similarity to other groups of moden humans?) and doesn't make sense when the groups aren't 80% similar to themselves.

  13. #133
    Deleted
    Have we got the the aliens or giant pharohs stage in this argument yet?

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/unexp...haraohs-008739

    A recent article titled Ancient Egyptian Pharaoh May Be the 1st Known 'Giant,' published in Live Science on August 4th, revealed that 3rd Dynasty Pharaoh Sa-Nakht, excavated from Wadi Maghareh (located in the Sinai Peninsula region), was a so-called “Giant” – the first known giant ruler of ancient Egypt. He was 5 inches taller than the robust Ramses II, and 8 inches taller than average man for that time. Although he was only 6ft 1.5in tall, this caused a media sensation, but please note that I am the same height as this ‘giant’!

    Throughout Egypt’s past there have been numerous examples of much taller giants reported, excavated, depicted in art, and mummified examples that have been hidden from the public. We have uncovered accounts ranging from between seven feet (2.13 meters) and sixteen feet (4.88 meters) tall. Painstaking research of archaeological records, archaic texts, newspapers, and analysis of depictions of hieroglyphs and Egyptian art has started to shed some light on this phenomenon.

    The whole area of the Middle East has strong legends of giant humans, along with references in the Bible - which include Moses fleeing from Egypt and being attacked by the mighty Canaanites in current day Israel and Lebanon. Newspaper accounts confirm the reality of these tribes, and skeletons and bones of enormous proportions have been unearthed in this area of the Bible Lands, and also in other parts of Africa and the Middle East.

  14. #134
    Bloodsail Admiral Allenseiei's Avatar
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    You lost me when you said Egypt was in the center of Africa.

  15. #135
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffyman View Post
    Have we got the the aliens or giant pharohs stage in this argument yet?

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/unexp...haraohs-008739
    Just gonna say this; the giants, the great flood, the ten plagues, that I'll buy.

    But what utterly ruins the Bible for me is this idea that in order to conduct a census, it was necessary for everyone to return to the town of their birth. Sure let's just bring commerce to a grinding halt for like three months just so we can take a census of people that don't even live in their home towns any more.

    It totally irks my inner accountant and personnel manager.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  16. #136
    Ancient Egyptians were white. There never was advanced black civilization.

  17. #137
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    But that doesn't make sense either - the difference within populations account for 85% (others say 70-100% - and it also varies between populations) of variability in human DNA; the variation between populations is just 15% or so.

    Thus 80% similarity in human DNA between ancient Egyptians and a group of modern humans is both meaningless (what is the similarity to other groups of moden humans?) and doesn't make sense when the groups aren't 80% similar to themselves.
    Never said his number made any sense. Hence why I called it a made up number. I was just attacking the naive idea that it was a comparison in absolute number of genes.

  18. #138
    Black Africans are mostly sub-Saharan. Not many tribes would have migrated through the desert. Middle-eastern tribes were the ones that settled in Egypt and created the empire.

    Not to say there weren't black tribes in the area and that there weren't black Egyptians, there were. But the majority were Middle-eastern.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    You make me laugh, Arab slave trade is as old as their written records, according to some texts, well before the construction of most recent pyramids. And the trade routes in Africa and west Asia always included slave market.
    Slaves did not build the Pyramids is what I am getting at. Religion polluted actual real history.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    They basically were, If you're paid for your services with food and shelter, you are sort of stuck in that job like a slave because you have no other place to go unless you are willing to die without food.

    It's like the old railroad towns.
    We are all slaves to money, mining towns had similar issues.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    Ancient Egyptians were white. There never was advanced black civilization.
    Not sure is this is bait but whatever, I'll bite...

    Ghana, Songhai, Mali, Aksum, Swahili City-States, Kanem-Bornu, Cush and Punt.

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