"Trials deserve loot too"

[Deleted]

Don't tell me you start that "all who disagree with me is raiding LFR" melody again... boring and meaningless, as everything you brings to the table.
But anyway - I hope you will enjoy your "PL only" mode the same way I will.

Did anyone say that? Cause i didnt
I just asked you a simple question - so wheres your answer?

Just watch him ignore this now as he understands what it implies.

[nocturnus]

And 4. PL enabled the threat of loot denial if members didn't comply to a set predifined set of variables.

Loot denial isn't exclusive to ML only, and consistently saying or implying it is, is simply asinine.

It isn't?

Do enlighten me.

You know what's actually asinine? Implying that loot isn't used to coerce raid members.

I would argue no since people have free agency. At the very worst you lose one weeks lockout before you join another guild. They can't compel you to stay.

No, of course not. But they can 'punish' you by excluding you from the list of potential recipients if you're late, missed a raid, failed a soak, talked back, etc. etc. while using you anyway in the raid.

[Dalinos]

It isn't?

Do enlighten me.

You know what's actually asinine? Implying that loot isn't used to coerce raid members.

No, of course not. But they can 'punish' you by excluding you from the list of potential recipients if you're late, missed a raid, failed a soak, talked back, etc. etc. while using you anyway in the raid.

Which is obviously a GOOD thing. Of course you want to penalize someone for fucking up. It has been mentioned before that by doing the stuff you described (missed a raid WITHOUT NOTIFYING IN ADVANCE, failed a boss mechanic, talked back to someone above you in the hierarchy during raid-time ((discussion is done AFTER the raid is over, not DURING. DURING the raid everyone's job is to PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, nothing more, nothing less)) ) you are basicly wasting everybody else's time, not just your own. The same way you were sent to detention for not doing your homework in middle-school, the same way you get benched or penalized in any other way when you fuck up during a raid.

[rebecca191]

God forbid we try to encourage good attendance and performance in a group activity. Would you rather we just immediately kick anyone who screws up a couple of times, ensuring they will never ever get loot, instead of telling them what they are doing wrong and giving them a chance to fix it before being kicked?

[nocturnus]

Which is obviously a GOOD thing. Of course you want to penalize someone for fucking up. It has been mentioned before that by doing the stuff you described (missed a raid WITHOUT NOTIFYING IN ADVANCE, failed a boss mechanic, talked back to someone above you in the hierarchy during raid-time ((discussion is done AFTER the raid is over, not DURING. DURING the raid everyone's job is to PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, nothing more, nothing less)) ) you are basicly wasting everybody else's time, not just your own. The same way you were sent to detention for not doing your homework in middle-school, the same way you get benched or penalized in any other way when you fuck up during a raid.

You're entitled to an opinion, but it's just that; an opinion.

My opinion? Well, if a member doesn't abide by the guild's rules, he's should be talked to, benched or removed, not used as a drudge to fill up your roster. Not unlike firing an employee, rather than denying stipend. Can't remove the member because you need him, regardless of his incompetence? Can't fire an employee because you need the work done, regardless of his paltry performance?

Pay up.

As for your "detention at school" comparison: I don't know how well you're educated, especially when it comes to teaching and SWPBS (school wide positive behaviour support), but there have been several researches done and papers written (puplished by influential European and American educational institutes) that substantiate the futility of detention and similar punishments.

While very interesting, this is a different subject for another thread.

[Galateacyc]

by why would anyone compromise ?

the changes are coming - and you have to deal with it - dont like it ? go play other games.

simple as that.

At some point you have to question the business acumen of the game director when they are continually pissing off large subsets of their players with their decisions and telling those players to take a hike, when:
1) other solutions which address their problems which solve their stated problems exist
2) those other solutions would have minimal negative or even net positive effect on the happiness of the people affected.

I mean, even you guys with your world rotates around you attitudes can see that customer dissatisfaction and less people playing are a bad thing, right? The effect on queue sizes and the frequency of patches will almost certainly be negative even if you don't care about Blizzard's profits.

[Deleted]

I don't even understand what's going on in this thread anymore.

[MookieRah]

Regarding my earlier post in regards to nobody presenting any hard data in regards to ML and PL, I forgot to mention the second thing I've been saying in this thread. That being that Azerite gear will likely be the easiest gear to distribute with PL because it is not bound to a class and never warforges/titanforges. Once someone obtains their piece, every piece they get after that would be tradeable to everyone of the same armor type. Yeah, some people might be dicks and want to keep it for alt-specs, but in general in regards to guilds, it should be quite easy to get everyone Azerite gear.

@Tsharna

If you "seriously wonder", you have no serious knowledge and/or experience in progress. PL is for you.

Math is math. You said it yourself that guilds chose it based on speculation. If there are no numbers to support it, you have no idea how advantageous it actually is. That said, my point has nothing to do with my experience, just the honest truth that if nobody has data they are just speculating.

I have no doubts that it is more advantageous to run ML pre-BFA due to tier pieces being locked to a class in PL. But due to BfA removing tier, there is bit of a shift that most people aren't considering.

@Darkined

PL has been around since at least the beginning of WoD, roughly 4 years ago. Why has no guild used it in a progression setting vs. ML? Including in raids where tier wasn't available yet.

What data are you asking for exactly?

Then clearly there would be enough data points to find the average drop per player for PL compared against the amount of loot that ML provides. From that you can then get at least some very generalized statistics regarding gearing up a guild with PL versus ML. Again, even this old data would be good to have, cause right now people are pulling numbers from what they feel is right.

@Nutrition

As for math behind it... well personal gives more loot but it isn't the quantity per run people are worried about.

People say that PL gives more, but I have yet to see numbers on PL drop chance and the like. Is this even true? I mean, it certainly feels like it is (and probably is) but how much does PL give in comparison to ML though?

Again the removal of tier solves most of the drawbacks of personal... most not all but the lionshare.

Yeah, Azerite gear != tier, and thusly it lowers the advantage of ML a bit. How much though... *shrug*. You definitely get my point though.

@rda
No need to quote, you seem to get what I'm saying. I'm personally not saying that PL is in any way better than ML, just pointing out that nobody knows how good ML actually is in comparison.

But yeah, there is no point in any side to really be bickering unless we know just what we are actually losing in BfA. I don't suspect the loss of ML will affect things that drastically due to the switch from tier to azerite gear. Yes, gearing for an individual character might be a bit whacky in terms of more specific items like trinkets; however, the RNG would average out over the whole raid. Not to mention that getting your BiS items might not be as important as the shear amount of upgrades that PL would provide assuming that it's drop rate is significantly higher.

[Deleted]

@Tsharna

Math is math. You said it yourself that guilds chose it based on speculation. If there are no numbers to support it, you have no idea how advantageous it actually is. That said, my point has nothing to do with my experience, just the honest truth that if nobody has data they are just speculating.

As I mentioned before, you just prove to have no idea about mythic guilds and cutting edge guilds especially. Top guilds in particular breed the most accurate and specialized number-crunchers you can ever get for WoW without access to Blizzard meta data. What they deliver is VERY far from napkin math. Even at my guild's level we have plenty people who are able to crunch class/item/boss/etc. numbers incredibly well. That is too VERY far from napkin math. You have no idea though, which proves again - this change is not for you, nor is it about you.

[Khallid]

Thats precisely how pugs work. pugs are not progression groups. If you'e pugging odds are you are expecting everyone in that group to have already cleared the content you are aiming for. And so many people are 11/11 mythic at this day in age so it's not very uncommon to pug a 11/11 mythic player or alt .

You're generalizing. You're pretending that non-mythic players don't pug. Or that the only people to apply for a mythic raid will be those who already cleared it.

According to wowprogress 1096 of guilds have cleared 11/11M, which is 2.6% of the guilds they track. I myself I'm not 11/11M, only 9/11. So I probably can't even get invited into the elite groups that according to you are "common".

[truckboattruck]

This is quite literally how life works. Extra work entitles some form of compensation. Or do you expect people doing the bare minimum to achieve the same level of success as someone who goes above and beyond?

And by virtue of raiding in an environment where performance does matter, if you are under-performing the guild leadership has every right to tell you what you do and do not deserve. Pretty much every guild has some form of interview where they tell you basic information about how the guild is run and how raids go and when you agree to come over after you've accepted those conditions.



What? A series of self-contained events? Maybe if you're pugging heroic every week they are. But to expect your guild leadership to ignore how you've missed week after week or performed poorly week after week and you hit back with "well that doesn't matter, this week I was here and I did better than the last four!" then I'm again not sure what to tell you. You don't know what its like to manage 20+ people and have the lowest performing individual say they deserve just as much as anyone else because they showed up and inhaled oxygen.



Again, an individual in a 20 man group is not more important than the team. An individual thinking they deserve this item because they were there for the kill when the team believes it would be better on someone else for the sake of progression is wrong and selfish. Is it sometimes shitty to not get what you want the first time it drops? Sure. Are you going to get it the next time it drops or maybe even the time after that? Absolutely if you stick around. If you leave because you didn't get what you wanted right away then that's not the guild's fault. That's you being an extremely selfish individual in a team-oriented environment.



The guild who organized the raid and got everyone together and came up with the strategy to kill the boss owns the loot. And you have a fair roll if you perform. Otherwise, go and pug Mythic Argus right now on personal loot. You won't get anything because you won't kill it, but at least if something did drop you'd have a claim that no one would've owned the loot.

The bolded part is ironic because its clearly you who feels like you deserve something extra because apparently an individual who fills the raid slot but may do nothing at all or fucks up every mechanic deserves an equal chance to someone who actually performs.

so i was right, youre just an entitled thief.
thats fine, im sure you can trick desperate people into letting you use them.

[Deleted]

so i was right, youre just an entitled thief.
thats fine, im sure you can trick desperate people into letting you use them.

What is the gun called that is being used to force people into playing a game in a very particular way they really don't want, I wonder.

[Darkined]

so i was right, youre just an entitled thief.
thats fine, im sure you can trick desperate people into letting you use them.

For someone who ostensibly dislikes communism (or at least uses it as a derogatory term) you seem fine with an analogue approach used in this game. Hand-outs are bad except when hand-outs benefit you?

[Otimus]

It wasn't a joke, rather sarcasm Over 10 years ago TotalBiscuit cherished WoW for building and improving social skills of it's players. For being more of a hobby than an addiction as in - has more benefits (social aspects and skills) than drawbacks (spending increasing amount of money on it, gambling in it, social withdrawal, etc.)

Now it's a whole different game and it continues to descend into a Warcraft flavoured slot machine with participation trophies for entitled antisocial lowperformers.

They don't want to create value for any community anymore. They don't want to create a community with any social ties in it. They only want to milk the $ out of the gaming market. No more bold vision and genre leadership.

I get that it's sad to see the old style go, but I think it was always doomed the moment they tried to make an MMO that is extremely popular. The two things can't thrive together, and in any time in WoW's life when they did thrive together, it was on the back of a fuckton of people playing a tiny bit and then quitting, which is mostly what lead us to the mess we're in now: Blizzard trying to get as many people to play a game, regardless of them wanting to play it. (Trust me! I'm probably the ones who shouldn't be bothering with a traditional MMORPG!)

I think the only way the traditional MMORPG can remain healthy is if it makes peace with the fact that it's ideal sub size is going to have to be around 500,000, which is still enough to make a lot of money.

When you chase millions, you get into having to try and please everyone, and often wind up pleasing no one. (Or just addicts)

[Darkined]

@Darkined

Then clearly there would be enough data points to find the average drop per player for PL compared against the amount of loot that ML provides. From that you can then get at least some very generalized statistics regarding gearing up a guild with PL versus ML. Again, even this old data would be good to have, cause right now people are pulling numbers from what they feel is right.

This assumes the only gear you get/use will be from raids which is even less likely in this expansion than in WoD. This isn't about the number of drops/the quantity of the loot. It really isn't hard to grasp that. It's been said again and again. Why do people need to keep repeating themselves?

@Nutrition

People say that PL gives more, but I have yet to see numbers on PL drop chance and the like. Is this even true? I mean, it certainly feels like it is (and probably is) but how much does PL give in comparison to ML though?

PL gives more averaged throughout the raid. On a boss by boss basis it may give more it may give less. It may, however unlikely, give you nothing. Welcome to RNG raiding, it feels so great.

@rda
No need to quote, you seem to get what I'm saying. I'm personally not saying that PL is in any way better than ML, just pointing out that nobody knows how good ML actually is in comparison.

Its obnoxious to state why ML is better than PL many, many times in the thread only for someone to then say "nobody knows how good ML actually is in comparison" for some reason. Again, why do many people say the exact same thing about why ML is better from a progression standpoint only for others to go "well why is it actually better?"

[Ellerain]

So I am the raid leader with 24 man team, say 20 core and 4 trials. We are going to re-kill Kingaroth. I need to decide who to take on the kill.
I have 2 core team 100% attendance RDPS that never got the trinket. I want them to get the trinket, it's a nice DPS boost we will need on Coven.

With ML I can take whomever I want on the kill.
With PL I will not take 945 trinketed trials because they wont be able to trade the trink to the main guys. I might take a trial who has a 960 trinket only on understanding that he will trade the potential drop to me. Otherwise I'd rather use a full core who both have the ilvl to trade the PL and the willingness to do it.

All blizz did with this chance is added more drama to the loot. As a consequence, to reduce this drama, I will feel forced to take less trials for important bosses. I will have to have the talk of the 'you will trade loot X to me if it drops' variety at least once for every trial. Moreover I will feel forced to take more trials for unimportant bosses that drop bad trinkets/bad weapons they can use -- just so they would 'unlock' an ability to trade a slot. As if being RL was not a big enough headache.

----
inb4 people who never raided Mythic tell me 'oooh you dont have to do this all unless you are in top 5 world guilds blah blah blah'
my dear scrubs, first, thank you for buying the carries, come again. second, even if my raid is not in top 5 world, I still do what I can to maximize the progression. Just as we use flasks, runes, food & pots, we will have to maximize the effect from geardrops -- which means having the bis pieces distributed to the bis players.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, I forgot the worst part: if I don't come up with the loot redistribution policy, the raiders being the social animals they are will create a patchwork ad-hoc one. Buddies will trade with each other, people who dont like each other will not and it will create even more stupid drama. So I will have to say something to the effect of 'if you can trade it to the master looter, trade it to the master looter' and then track this bullshit.

[Nutrition]

So I am the raid leader with 24 man team, say 20 core and 4 trials. We are going to re-kill Kingaroth. I need to decide who to take on the kill.
I have 2 core team 100% attendance RDPS that never got the trinket. I want them to get the trinket, it's a nice DPS boost we will need on Coven.

With ML I can take whomever I want on the kill.
With PL I will not take 945 trinketed trials because they wont be able to trade the trink to the main guys. I might take a trial who has a 960 trinket only on understanding that he will trade the potential drop to me. Otherwise I'd rather use a full core who both have the ilvl to trade the PL and the willingness to do it.

All blizz did with this chance is added more drama to the loot. As a consequence, to reduce this drama, I will feel forced to take less trials for important bosses. I will have to have the talk of the 'you will trade loot X to me if it drops' variety at least once for every trial. Moreover I will feel forced to take more trials for unimportant bosses that drop bad trinkets/bad weapons they can use -- just so they would 'unlock' an ability to trade a slot. As if being RL was not a big enough headache.

----
inb4 people who never raided Mythic tell me 'oooh you dont have to do this all unless you are in top 5 world guilds blah blah blah'
my dear scrubs, first, thank you for buying the carries, come again. second, even if my raid is not in top 5 world, I still do what I can to maximize the progression. Just as we use flasks, runes, food & pots, we will have to maximize the effect from geardrops -- which means having the bis pieces distributed to the bis players.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, I forgot the worst part: if I don't come up with the loot redistribution policy, the raiders being the social animals they are will create a patchwork ad-hoc one. Buddies will trade with each other, people who dont like each other will not and it will create even more stupid drama. So I will have to say something to the effect of 'if you can trade it to the master looter, trade it to the master looter' and then track this bullshit.

It's kinda weird you would have 4 trials ever even more so if you are running them while doing progression? Are you giving a worse case scenario? Most mythic guilds would balk at having two trials during progression.

[nocturnus]

You thought wrong, then. A far cry from the "most important cause for opposition". Not even close.

Unless you're calling "have flasks, potions, be on time, and attend raids" as variables. Those are simple raiding requirements, not variables that shift to our convenience to deny someone loot. They show up an hour late to raid every day, day after day, they deny themselves loot by being in a raiding guild whose raids they cannot properly attend.

If you think ML is seen by the majority as a tool for loot denial, you need to sharpen your critical thinking skills. That sounds awfully like the narrative of a victim.

You must have data handy to confidently claim "I think wrong" and that it's "Not even close".

Obviously, you don't. You just don't agree with me, which is fine, but are too inarticulate to express yourself objectively. If you genuinely think ML isn't used as a tool to control and coerce, you're either wide-eyed innocent, witless or a beautifully heartrending coalescence of both.

I've already explained how I handle members that do not abide by the rules and why, I think you need to brush up your comprehensive reading skills.

Oh, I forgot the worst part: if I don't come up with the loot redistribution policy, the raiders being the social animals they are will create a patchwork ad-hoc one. Buddies will trade with each other, people who dont like each other will not and it will create even more stupid drama. So I will have to say something to the effect of 'if you can trade it to the master looter, trade it to the master looter' and then track this bullshit.

You could of course also say: "Hey, grats on the loot! Do with it whatever you want, since it's your property to begin with"

[Dikka]

That was interesting.
At the first glance we have another power-hungry control freak with god complex.
Nothing new, good old "I will treat trials even worth then before" and "all your loot belong to me",
But then he drops this wonderful twist:

Oh, I forgot the worst part: if I don't come up with the loot redistribution policy, the raiders being the social animals they are will create a patchwork ad-hoc one. Buddies will trade with each other, people who dont like each other will not and it will create even more stupid drama. So I will have to say something to the effect of 'if you can trade it to the master looter, trade it to the master looter' and then track this bullshit.

He is terrified - raiders will interact with each other. Like...in social way. Raiders have social preferences. Raiders will have a choice to do what they want with the loot.
What a terrible thing to happen in MMO... worst part indeed.

He is going to stop that madness. He "have to".

How can somebody don't love this thread?

[justonetime]

That was interesting.
At the first glance we have another power-hungry control freak with god complex.
Nothing new, good old "I will treat trials even worth then before" and "all your loot belong to me",
But then he drops this wonderful twist:



He is terrified - raiders will interact with each other. Like...in social way. Raiders have social preferences. Raiders will have a choice to do what they want with the loot.
What a terrible thing to happen in MMO... worst part indeed.

He is going to stop that madness. He "have to".

How can somebody don't love this thread?

Its a pity that we play with people like this. They want to raid in good guild and do it without responsibilities. They want to kill bosses without obeying RL commands. They want guild without social drama while encouraging social drama on every corner. Word "hypocrisy" is not enough to describe them.

Every succesful raiding guild has visible hierarchy. People are working together under guidance of capable leader. Minimizing conflict situations is one of main jobs of said leader. Maybe if you raided with people more than 2 weeks you could understand how fair loot distribution negates guild conflicts and why it is important to be done from above. But in your perfect world everyone will lick your ass and you will own all loot that drops in raid. That is not how raiding works. If item that drops in your bags is better for someone else than it is for you and raid gains more if you trade it to them - you will trade it. In this situation team wins. If you leave that item for yourself your raiding team gets less.
And those small gains are ones that will determine kill on bosses. You are raiding with people, every character is a living person. Everyone of them wants to achieve something and your wishes dont go before theirs. The only goal in raid that everyone agrees to is raid progression. Any actions that will help achieve this goal will be done.
If you dont understand this statement - organized raiding is not for you. Try something else, dont force yourself. You are not suitable candidate for this environment.