Class design in Battle for Azeroth is worrosime...

[Musta]

This will be one of the reasons Blizzard cleans house and fires a lot of Devs. I dont think Ion and Lore and anyone who had anything to do with the classes will see tFirst big patch. There is going to be a lot of "moved on to better opportunities" posted

Hey at least fury warriors work /sarcasm

[Kralljin]

The fact that Tigole and Furor copied raids to WoW was a large mistake.

Ever considered the thought that a lot of people like the idea of raids?
I mean raids are the one thing consistently appeared throughout all WoW expansions, they are a cornerstone of the game.

If you want a game without raids, WoW is not a game for you.

WoW was meant for "as many players as possible" from the start, as that is one of Blizzards main mission statements. Blizzard was and is successfull, when they take a rather hardcore genre and create a mass market ready game out of it.

And people that don't want to put a lot of effort into can still enjoy it along with their friends, for that Normal mode exists and lowkey M+.

And as i said, rated pvp players and mythic raiders surely arent the target group which made WoW successfull.

Yet for some reason both organized PvP and raiding has existed since Vanilla and the game is / was very successful.

I now get why i didn't understood what you wanted, you want a WoW that never existed nor will ever exist because you want something gone that has existed within the game since its creation.

[Pickynerd]

Who is they? The WoW Devs are a team of people that has changed completely over the years. It's not like there is this one guy that has been guiding this project for the past 14 years. There is probably not a single person of the original team still working on it. For Blizzard the company it is a steady source of income and they sure as hell have tried to streamline the investment process to ensure it remains a net gain each month.

They completely change over the years for the same reasons. Burnout.

While it is still profitable it wont be forever. Blizzard has known this, and that is why they were working on the next biggest mmo Titan.

If a mmorpg comes out and crushes wow, what does Blizzard have?

[Gaidax]

The point is, the rest isn't just fluff. If your class gameplay sucks the entire game sucks because your class is the centerpiece of everything you do in game.

When I read bullshit hyperbole like this it really boils to a simple case of either:

1. Person playing wrong class and can't wrap his head around why it does not have all the stuff other class that he actually wants to play has.
2. Trolling.
3. Being just bad.

Thing is - aside from couple specs - BfA does not change THAT much when it comes to classes, so you know what you are signing up for. So maybe consider that if your class gameplay "sucks", then it's not what you wanted to begin with and guess what- you have another 11 classes to choose from who may offer gameplay you would like more.

I often see this in Warlock forums, for example - why we don't have mage mobility and tricks? Guess what - that's because you are not a mage, but a warlock and one of the perks that mage lacks is ability to withstand nuclear strike, for example and not having to zip around for your sorry life the moment someone looks at you funny.

[Caaethil]

Thats how stats work though. The crazies counter each other out when you have a big enough sample size

That only works when your sample has a bit of everyone such that it reflects the population as a whole. You have a few crazies to the left of your bell curve, a few to the right. They're easy to ignore and then you can just look at the normal people.

In this case if you disregard them you're left with nought. You can't take a bunch of people saying Blizzard are gods on Earth and another bunch who think they hate us all, and then expect to mix them together in some bizarre concoction to find out what Bill the heroic raider thinks. You actually need to have Bill the heroic raider somewhere in the discussion, and you need to have lots of Bills so that they appear in a similar proportion compared to the crazies as you would expect in the actual population.

In more basic statistical terms: your sample needs to be random and large. A perfectly representative sample still has the extremes and that's good. Having the extremes is not the same as being skewed, and the skewness is the real problem here.

[RobertoCarlos]

That only works when your sample has a bit of everyone such that it reflects the population as a whole. You have a few crazies to the left of your bell curve, a few to the right. They're easy to ignore and then you can just look at the normal people.

In this case if you disregard them you're left with nought. You can't take a bunch of people saying Blizzard are gods on Earth and another bunch who think they hate us all, and then expect to mix them together in some bizarre concoction to find out what Bill the heroic raider thinks. You actually need to have Bill the heroic raider somewhere in the discussion, and you need to have lots of Bills so that they appear in a similar proportion compared to the crazies as you would expect in the actual population.

In more basic statistical terms: your sample needs to be random and large. A perfectly representative sample still has the extremes and that's good. Having the extremes is not the same as being skewed, and the skewness is the real problem here.

Thats why I thought the fact its on a WoW fan site is quite telling.

If you asked 10 people in your local supermarket, how many do you think even play WoW?

[Argorwal]

There was a poll on mmo-champion earlier asking which difficulty you raid in and mythic and heroic where the top 2 results well above normal and LFR.

Clearly these polls represent the average WoW player...

[Pickynerd]

I now get why i didn't understood what you wanted, you want a WoW that never existed nor will ever exist because you want something gone that has existed within the game since its creation.

In short GW2, but what is this? Raids in GW2?

People want raids.

[Cosmic Janitor]

They completely change over the years for the same reasons. Burnout.

While it is still profitable it wont be forever. Blizzard has known this, and that is why they were working on the next biggest mmo Titan.

If a mmorpg comes out and crushes wow, what does Blizzard have?

All their other fanchises with a large part of their customers hopping between games all day long? The thing with MMOs is that people are invested, they can keep this one running another 10 years easily and still make a profit with it, especially with the usual blizzard fanboys, worse games have managed. There is also no mmorpg coming out that will crush anytime soon, especially with the market having shifted to pay to win and people hating that. The remaining ones will just fill niches as much as wow does should it ever get to critical levels.

[Pickynerd]

All their other fanchises with a large part of their customers hopping between games all day long? The thing with MMOs is that people are invested, they can keep this one running another 10 years easily and still make a profit with it, especially with the usual blizzard fanboys, worse games have managed. There is also no mmorpg coming out that will crush anytime soon, especially with the market having shifted to pay to win and people hating that. The remaining ones will just fill niches as much as wow does should it ever get to critical levels.

They can keep running it and run it straight into the ground, because there will be the next big mmorpg that will kill WoW, the question is, will Blizzard make it, or will someone else?

Does Blizzard want to be the next SOE?

[Kralljin]

No, it never was very successfull. Some thousand killed Illidan in tbc.

1124 Guilds killed Mythic Argus, which is over 20k player.

I am not sure if that many people killed Illidan before 3.0, at least if we also take sub numbers into account.

Possibly also how long said raid was available before the pre patchhit.

Rated pvp is a niche gameplay where blizzard even thinks about random queues to revive it to send some cannon fodder aka "random players".

Huh? Blizzard has spoken out against rated solo queue for PvP multiple times by now.

Mythic raids are played by less than 1% of the players.

and based on that rated pvp and mythic raiders receive way too much love and effort

And mythic does not take a lot of time to design actually, it's below 10% of developer resources when designing a new raid.

LFR has no real unique gameplay, but is just watered down raiding.

Then try normal for gods sake.

Honestly, arguing with you makes me think this game has only three modes:
1.Rated PvP
2.Mythic
3.LFR

[capri sunset]

When I read bullshit hyperbole like this it really boils to a simple case of either:

1. Person playing wrong class and can't wrap his head around why it does not have all the stuff other class that he actually wants to play has.
2. Trolling.
3. Being just bad.

Thing is - aside from couple specs - BfA does not change THAT much when it comes to classes, so you know what you are signing up for. So maybe consider that if your class gameplay "sucks", then it's not what you wanted to begin with and guess what- you have another 11 classes to choose from who may offer gameplay you would like more.

I often see this in Warlock forums, for example - why we don't have mage mobility and tricks? Guess what - that's because you are not a mage, but a warlock and one of the perks that mage lacks is ability to withstand nuclear strike, for example and not having to zip around for your sorry life the moment someone looks at you funny.

I think you're being unfair here. People have different mindsets and different things that make the game fun for them, connections to certain classes and abilities and so on, so when gameplay is stripped away over time then what do you expect? Also that people complain about not having as much mobility as a mage as you say, which I agree class identities are important, however does not discount the legitimate concerns involving spell interactions, things to manage and general feel that a spec once had.

That being said, I do think the subset is too small to matter in the long run so blizzard will do what they want.

[Aeula]

Whelp, ret and fury are looking good and they're my two main specs (Horde and Alliance respectively) going into BfA. Maybe things won't be so bad.

[munkeyinorbit]

They already treat live servers like beta servers, i dont think they really care. They know the whales are still gonna play regardless.

Nearly 600 votes for the poll and 60% of people unhappy on a WOW website, if that doesnt show off how crap BFA class design looks then I dunno what will

I wouldn't really call this a WoW fansite. It is more of a place where ex players who hate the game come to complain about a game they do not play and rose tinted glasses about a time where WoW was better and disect when exactly WoW died. 40% approval is amazing for this site.

[Marcellus1986]

I think a lot of the class problems (barring a few specs) can be boiled down to just numbers tuning. Scaling needs a looking at, both ability scaling and that of mob health/damage. Hit 120 last night on my Druid and it’s a pain sometimes doing quests.

[Mafic]

I have known class design for BFA was worrisome back in February lol

Bottom line is they have made improvements the last three weeks. But I don't think it is going to be enough with prepatch and live launch in 2 months.

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I think a lot of the class problems (barring a few specs) can be boiled down to just numbers tuning. Scaling needs a looking at, both ability scaling and that of mob health/damage. Hit 120 last night on my Druid and it’s a pain sometimes doing quests.

Honestly it isn't number tuning. NPCS do too much damage at level cap but classes still have gaps in their rotations and missing too much utility. Lack of buttons is a serious issue as Azerite armor traits are passive in nature for the most part.

[Nyel]

Like Jay Wilson? He's still working on Diablo right? Isn't there a new one coming out? Surely wouldn't make sense if they took him off the Diablo project and tossed him on the WoW team.. surely.

We just don't know. Maybe they're sharing ideas or concepts (with all the Diablo stuff in Legion etc.) but I doubt that they shift around workforce like that.

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Thing is - aside from couple specs - BfA does not change THAT much when it comes to classes, so you know what you are signing up for. So maybe consider that if your class gameplay "sucks", then it's not what you wanted to begin with and guess what- you have another 11 classes to choose from who may offer gameplay you would like more.

I have 10 level 110s at the moment. I know every class except Warrior fairly well with half of them more than good because at a point of time they've been my main for several months or longer.

The bold part is exactly the problem. We played these specs for two years now and they're not changing much except getting ripped off of skills and legendaries. You think the majority of players likes playing their watered down Legion specs for two more years?

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I have known class design for BFA was worrisome back in February lol

Bottom line is they have made improvements the last three weeks. But I don't think it is going to be enough with prepatch and live launch in 2 months.

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Honestly it isn't number tuning. NPCS do too much damage at level cap but classes still have gaps in their rotations and missing too much utility. Lack of buttons is a serious issue as Azerite armor traits are passive in nature for the most part.

They are releasing a lot of class related stuff in the last builds because they know most specs suck. Simple as that. I am pretty sure they were not aware of how bad most specs feel and play at the moment and now they're trying to "fix" major design flaws with a bunch of band-aids. It won't work in the long run but it's too late for them to really work on classes because they wasted half a year of doing absolutely nothing in that regard.

[Mafic]

We just don't know. Maybe they're sharing ideas or concepts (with all the Diablo stuff in Legion etc.) but I doubt that they shift around workforce like that.

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I have 10 level 110s at the moment. I know every class except Warrior fairly well with half of them more than good because at a point of time they've been my main for several months or longer.

The bold part is exactly the problem. We played these specs for two years now and they're not changing much except getting ripped off of skills and legendaries. You think the majority of players likes playing their watered down Legion specs for two more years?

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They are releasing a lot of class related stuff in the last builds because they know most specs suck. Simple as that. I am pretty sure they were not aware of how bad most specs feel and play at the moment and now they're trying to "fix" major design flaws with a bunch of band-aids. It won't work in the long run but it's too late for them to really work on classes because they wasted half a year of doing absolutely nothing in that regard.

Yeah they are scrambling now which is surprising that they have done a complete 180. But I think even Blizz finally woke up to the reality that you can't go into an expansion with watered Legion classes.

Feedback of alpha/beta testers finally broke through their bubble of group think and we are starting to see spec changes across the board or whatever time left permits for that happen.

[Caaethil]

Thats why I thought the fact its on a WoW fan site is quite telling.

If you asked 10 people in your local supermarket, how many do you think even play WoW?

Probably none.

I'm not saying a WoW fansite it the worst place to have a poll like this, it's probably the best place. But you're only really engaging with a specific type of player, and all you're gauging is what that type of player thinks. The average WoW player imo doesn't browse MMO-Champion, it's more veteran/hardcore/opinionated players, right?

[Mafic]

Probably none.

I'm not saying a WoW fansite it the worst place to have a poll like this, it's probably the best place. But you're only really engaging with a specific type of player, and all you're gauging is what that type of player thinks. The average WoW player imo doesn't browse MMO-Champion, it's more veteran/hardcore/opinionated players, right?

But how does that make it any different than the alpha/beta forums?