Who made the bigger mistake: Thrall or Vol'jin?

[CatchingFire]

Remember how much flack Thrall received for handing over the position of Warchief to Garrosh? Many people blamed Thrall by association for all the decisions and actions Garrosh made/took. Well, how come Vol'jin doesn't receive much criticism for handing the position to Sylvanas? I am fully aware that Vol'jin is dead, and therefore there is less sense in actively accusing him, but still, surely his legacy is tarnished badly by giving the title to the Dark Lady? Just what in God's name compelled Vol'jin to choose Sylvanas as his successor? Because some stupid spirits whispered her name? Wouldn't be surprised if the whispers came from an old god disguised as a revered troll spirit.

[Nnyco]

because she didnt go full racist?

[Fetus Rex]

Vol'jin of course. Making Garrosh a Warchief was not a mistake.

[CatchingFire]

Vol'jin of course. Making Garrosh a Warchief was not a mistake.

I am a Thrall fan, but even I acknowledge that making Garrosh Warchief was a bad error of judgement on his behalf. Garrosh was not near mature enough or mentally sound to take on the role of Warchief.

[Deleted]

Remember how much flack Thrall received for handing over the position of Warchief to Garrosh? Many people blamed Thrall by association for all the decisions and actions Garrosh made/took. Well, how come Vol'jin doesn't receive much criticism for handing the position to Sylvanas? I am fully aware that Vol'jin is dead, and therefore there is less sense in actively accusing him, but still, surely his legacy is tarnished badly by giving the title to the Dark Lady? Just what in God's name compelled Vol'jin to choose Sylvanas as his successor? Because some stupid spirits whispered her name? Wouldn't be surprised if the whispers came from an old god disguised as a revered troll spirit.

Blizzard made the bigger mistake. Handing over control of the Horde to Garrosh made no sense, and Vol'jin was just a bad warchief cause the writers were lazy during WoD and didn't give him anything to do.

If you ask me, what they should've done is have Thrall as a world shaman neglect his duty to the Horde during the Cataclysm. So much so that the Alliance wins against the Horde in some places. Then Garrosh steps in and challenges Thrall to Mak'gora again. He defeats Thrall and Thrall leaves Orgrimmar, going on a spiritual journey to find his path in life. "Was I a bad warchief?" "Is the Horde better off with Garrosh?" Eventually Garrosh leads the Horde down a dark path and Thrall realizes he has to step in and save his people. He returns, kills Garrosh and resumes his role as warchief.

[Bathory]

Thrall. Everything spiraled out of control with Garrosh at the helm. If Thrall was going to give him the mantle, he should have given him a proper council, not just "Hey Cairne and Voljin, watch over this guy for me.

Garrosh wasn't wrong when he said "You failed ME" to Thrall. Thrall could have continued to teach him and hone him into a proper leader, and if he realized he couldn't, he shouldn't have given him command. Thrall failed Grom, Garrosh, Cairne, and the entire horde with that decision imo.

[LoLcano]

Remember how much flack Thrall received for handing over the position of Warchief to Garrosh? Many people blamed Thrall by association for all the decisions and actions Garrosh made/took. Well, how come Vol'jin doesn't receive much criticism for handing the position to Sylvanas? I am fully aware that Vol'jin is dead, and therefore there is less sense in actively accusing him, but still, surely his legacy is tarnished badly by giving the title to the Dark Lady? Just what in God's name compelled Vol'jin to choose Sylvanas as his successor? Because some stupid spirits whispered her name? Wouldn't be surprised if the whispers came from an old god disguised as a revered troll spirit.

There is a simple answer : people like Sylvanas , no other NPC have this huge sort of fanbase . So she could eat babies for breakfast and then raise their skeleton and feed it to her dog and still people cheer for her .

[Deleted]

Vol'jin is dead. Thrall isn't.

Pretty obvious who made the biggest mistake.

[Deleted]

Vol'jin. Because he also got impaled by a trash mob attacking from the front on top of it.

I think the whole thing was cause the Loa wanted Sylvanas to try and recruit the Zandalari and in the process stop the rise of G'huun. The whole war, the killings, the "enslavement" of the other horde races... worth it yo! No, no it wasn't. The alliance and horde would've found a way, like they did with Yoggy and C'thun.

He was delirious and the Loa atook advantage is what i conclude.

[Fetus Rex]

I am a Thrall fan, but even I acknowledge that making Garrosh Warchief was a bad error of judgement on his behalf. Garrosh was not near mature enough or mentally sound to take on the role of Warchief.

I'm a Thrall hater and even I acknowledge it to be his one good decision. garrosh has liked his wars, manly type of hero. The best kind of hero.

[Thelyron]

Everything that happened in the last 10 years... Garroshs attrocities, the invasion of pandaria, the siege of orgrimmar, the iron horde, the legion invasion, the new war between alliance and horde, and the deaths of so so many people... is Thralls fault.

[Tyron]

Thrall was caught between a rock and a hard place. He thought Garrosh wasn't ready to be warchief but if he didn't appoint him there was going to be civil war. After the Northrend campaign Garrosh was seen as a hero by the orcs and they wouldn't have accepted another candidate.

We still don't know why Vol'jin made Sylvanas warchief though.

[Razion]

I think Bwonsamdi ultimately benefits from having Sylvanas in power in ways that are not obvious to us yet. He regards the undead terribly, but I don't think this means he isn't getting use of them, much like how he used his own undead to test trolls in the past. I wouldn't be surprised to see a struggle for over life and death between the Scourge, Loa, Dragonflights, and Sylvanas as the main participants at some point in the distant future.

[Heldamon]

Varian for not ending the Horde at the end of MoP

[CatchingFire]

Varian for not ending the Horde at the end of MoP

Well, let's be careful about reaching too far. Otherwise I could refute your claim and say Anduin is responsible because he convinced Varian to hesitate before going ahead and ending the Horde. Or we could say the head of the Shadopan was to blame for suggesting imprisonment when death was a more fitting punishment.

[Destinas]

Thrall. While there were many other candidates (Eitrigg, Saurfang, anyone else) he chose Garrosh, who was fairly new to the Horde, and was simply a decent leader during the Northrend campaign. He knew Garrosh was unstable, because he had to reel him in a couple of times in Northrend as well.

It could be argued that Vol'jin knew the same about Sylvanas, and that's certainly valid. However, Sylvanas was going to do whatever she wanted with or without the mantle of "Warchief" - this is outright stated in one of the early excerpts from Before the Storm a couple of months back. She was going to go through with duplicitous schemes in the shadows until she was made into the Warchief - which she actually was angry that Vol'jin had done. It's stated that she has less opportunities to do whatever schemes she had cooked up because she's a more public figure now. That, to me, says that Sylvanas was always going to be a little more chaotic, Warchief or not. Garrosh, on the other hand, was simply angry before his days as Warchief, and he became dangerous with power. Sylvanas, no matter what, is always dangerous. With Azerite, we can't say for sure that the Alliance and Horde wouldn't have fought over it with a different Warchief - except perhaps Baine.

We also don't know the entire reason that Vol'jin made Sylvanas the Warchief. He spoke of "spirits" - that could be anything from the Loa/Wild Gods, to his ancestors, to Old Gods, to Bwonsamdi himself, etc. Considering we see his spirit in Zandalar, we may find out. This is compared to Thrall, who simply thought Garrosh was "ready" to lead, and that he was a hero in Northrend.

[Lochton]

Thrall, I would say. Sylvanas right now is picking up the shards and playing along with it.

- - - Updated - - -

We also don't know the entire reason that Vol'jin made Sylvanas the Warchief. He spoke of "spirits" - that could be anything from the Loa/Wild Gods, to his ancestors, to Old Gods, to Bwonsamdi himself, etc. Considering we see his spirit in Zandalar, we may find out. This is compared to Thrall, who simply thought Garrosh was "ready" to lead, and that he was a hero in Northrend.

I have this theory that always returns to me. Bwonsamdi was fawning over Vol'jin, that was a known fact. Vol'jin brought Bwonsamdi a flow of spirits, so it would make sense to select someone that could keep the spirits going to the grasp of Bwonsamdi. Sylvanas, is the better choice out of the others for that. As well, Vol'jin didn't have many to choose from in the first place. You have two racial leaders who DOESN'T want to be warchief, you have one that you KNOW shouldn't be, and he's only tall enough to look at your crotch. So, you would have the Banshee Queen and Baine left. And Baine wouldn't be a good enough supplier of spirits to Bwonsamdi. As for the trolls, there wasn't really any prominent enough characters to be written in yet.

[CatchingFire]

Thrall. While there were many other candidates (Eitrigg, Saurfang, anyone else) he chose Garrosh, who was fairly new to the Horde, and was simply a decent leader during the Northrend campaign. He knew Garrosh was unstable, because he had to reel him in a couple of times in Northrend as well.

It could be argued that Vol'jin knew the same about Sylvanas, and that's certainly valid. However, Sylvanas was going to do whatever she wanted with or without the mantle of "Warchief" - this is outright stated in one of the early excerpts from Before the Storm a couple of months back. She was going to go through with duplicitous schemes in the shadows until she was made into the Warchief - which she actually was angry that Vol'jin had done. It's stated that she has less opportunities to do whatever schemes she had cooked up because she's a more public figure now. That, to me, says that Sylvanas was always going to be a little more chaotic, Warchief or not. Garrosh, on the other hand, was simply angry before his days as Warchief, and he became dangerous with power. Sylvanas, no matter what, is always dangerous. With Azerite, we can't say for sure that the Alliance and Horde wouldn't have fought over it with a different Warchief - except perhaps Baine.

We also don't know the entire reason that Vol'jin made Sylvanas the Warchief. He spoke of "spirits" - that could be anything from the Loa/Wild Gods, to his ancestors, to Old Gods, to Bwonsamdi himself, etc. Considering we see his spirit in Zandalar, we may find out. This is compared to Thrall, who simply thought Garrosh was "ready" to lead, and that he was a hero in Northrend.

Both were bad decisions, but at least Thrall's decision though came from his own sense of (flawed) reason - there was nobody as fitting as Garrosh, who was well-admired by the majority of orcs after Northrend. Vol'jin's decision to appoint Sylvanas was because of an external spirit vision - he didn't use reason when weighing up whether Sylvanas should have been chosen or not. And if we examine both Garrash and Sylvanas in terms of their past deeds AT THE TIME of appointment, Sylvanas was the way worse choice. When Thrall had appointed Garrosh, despite his concerning attitude, Garrosh had transgressed only minimally and had not done anything truly evil. Putting Garrosh in charge was taking a risk. Sylvanas, on the other hand, had a long list of evil acts attributed to her and was a shady person by the time Vol'jin appointed her as Warchief.

[Thorbalt]

Sylvanas actually did a good thing by burning teldrassil to the ground. Not many people apparently bothered to remember that the tree the night elves live on is staghelms abomination he forced into existance to try and regain the night elves immortality, and has always been viewed as such by every druid.

garrosh did nothing right

[Deleted]

I hope Vol'jin made a big mistake, so we can make the Horde the Horde again.