Who made the bigger mistake: Thrall or Vol'jin?

[Deleted]

Because whole Troll culture is based on Loas and their favors.So he had to listen to their guidence I suppose.

[3DTyrant]

I am a Thrall fan, but even I acknowledge that making Garrosh Warchief was a bad error of judgement on his behalf. Garrosh was not near mature enough or mentally sound to take on the role of Warchief.

Didn't Garrosh even oppose the idea himself of becoming Warchief, yet Thrall still dumped that shit on him.

[Kithelle]

Vol'jin

She is just turning the Horde into a bunch of thugs and murderers who're at her back and call, which she has no remorse about killing if it saves her own hide.

[BobAwesome]

There is a simple answer : people like Sylvanas , no other NPC have this huge sort of fanbase . So she could eat babies for breakfast and then raise their skeleton and feed it to her dog and still people cheer for her .

The difference between Garrosh and Sylvanas is that, when we first met Garrosh, he was this pathetic, sulking, emo Orc in Outland. The evolution of his character made no sense. With Sylvanas, ever since Arthas killed her, she's been consistent. An undead banshee, who is willing to do whatever it takes to protect her people who now happen to be the Forsaken.

[Spiral Mage]

I think a little more history has to unfold before we can properly make that call.

[Trollokdamus]

Varian for not ending the Horde at the end of MoP

Varian didn't have the power to "end" the Horde. He surely could have taken Orgrimmar, but that would have resulted in the endless warfare since the Horde still had many holdings across the two continents. This would have made it so much easier for the Iron Horde to succeed with their conquest, not to mention the subsequent Legion invasion.

Thrall. While there were many other candidates (Eitrigg, Saurfang, anyone else) he chose Garrosh, who was fairly new to the Horde, and was simply a decent leader during the Northrend campaign. He knew Garrosh was unstable, because he had to reel him in a couple of times in Northrend as well.

This. Saurfang was also a war hero, and not just of the Northrend campaign. He was a coolheaded Orc with no hatred towards the Alliance. Not to mention he and Varian had gained some sort of understanding and mutual respect, if we follow the Alliance narrative of ICC. Following the exhausting war against the Lich King and facing the upcoming Cataclysm, the last thing this world needed was yet another faction war.

We also don't know the entire reason that Vol'jin made Sylvanas the Warchief. He spoke of "spirits" - that could be anything from the Loa/Wild Gods, to his ancestors, to Old Gods, to Bwonsamdi himself, etc. Considering we see his spirit in Zandalar, we may find out. This is compared to Thrall, who simply thought Garrosh was "ready" to lead, and that he was a hero in Northrend.

Also this. Given Vol'jin's statement "many will not understand", the "spirts", whatever they truly were, told/showed him something that we are yet to find out. So it's a bit too early to judge him yet.

[StationaryHawk]

The difference between Garrosh and Sylvanas is that, when we first met Garrosh, he was this pathetic, sulking, emo Orc in Outland. The evolution of his character made no sense. With Sylvanas, ever since Arthas killed her, she's been consistent. An undead banshee, who is willing to whatever it takes to protect her people who now happen to be the Forsaken.

There is an obvious inconsistency in Garrosh's character between Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria, but there is sense in his development following The Burning Crusade. His attitude was based almost solely on how he perceived Grommash, and the revelation that he had in fact saved, not doomed the Horde, was a turning point.

It's also worth pointing out that the ever consistent, "willing to do whatever it takes to protect her people" Sylvanas abandoned the Forsaken and ended her own life following the Lich King's defeat.

Didn't Garrosh even oppose the idea himself of becoming Warchief, yet Thrall still dumped that shit on him.

He admitted to knowing little of politics, but accepted the mantle when Thrall explained that he could rely on others to make up for his shortcoming. Of course, Cairne proceeded to almost immediately turn on him.

[BobAwesome]

There is an obvious inconsistency in Garrosh's character between Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria, but there is sense in his development following The Burning Crusade. His attitude was based almost solely on how he perceived Grommash, and the revelation that he had in fact saved, not doomed the Horde, was a turning point.

Not just from Cata to MoP, but from BC to WotLK as well. The most stark transition for me was from WotLK to Cata.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Thrall. Poor old Voljin was delirious while dying. Can't fault him for hearing things on his deathbed.

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The difference between Garrosh and Sylvanas is that, when we first met Garrosh, he was this pathetic, sulking, emo Orc in Outland. The evolution of his character made no sense. With Sylvanas, ever since Arthas killed her, she's been consistent. An undead banshee, who is willing to do whatever it takes to protect herself people who now happen to be the Forsaken.

Fixed that for you.

[In Ogres We Trust]

Are we forgetting that Thrall appointed Garrosh (who I happened to like) and Vol'jin as the Warchief of the Orcish Horde? Honestly, Sylvanas being in the role is a butchering of the Horde's story as well as Sylvanas's story (although, to be fair, she should have died in WotLK).

[ceall]

Thrall made the bigger mistake.

Garrosh hitler should never have happened. He brought war to pandaria. He's the reason WoD happened (and we all know how WoD ended...). He made orgrimmar visually disgusting. He tried to break the horde apart.

Sylvanas on the other hand, up to now (end of Legion) she's done nothing but having her grudge with genn. Trying to keep the population of her forsaken up is nothing bad in my eyes. She tries to save her people. And with her in control, the horde stands as one.

[elaina]

Garrosh is very nearly an embodiment of toxic masculinity. If I didn't know this community better I would be surprised he has so many fanbois still. Rooting for his horde is not unlike not being over the confederacy, although in Garrosh's defense the wounds aren't centuries old.

[nexellent]

Voljin ofc, garrosh did nothing wrong.

[Aeula]

I can’t say that the only good decision Vol’jin ever made was a mistake.

Thrall should have prepared Garrosh better. So I’ll go with Thrall.

[Schattenlied]

Well, how come Vol'jin doesn't receive much criticism for handing the position to Sylvanas?

Because he was likely forced to do it by the Loa, under threat of something terrible happening to his soul if he didn't.

Also, if Thrall hadn't picked Garry, Vol'jin would have never even been in a position to pick Sylvanas, so, Thrall made the worse mistake anyways.

because she didnt go full racist?

You say that as if she doesn't want to kill all humans.

[anaxie]

Anduin

For making the Worst and most selfish of all the kings of the Alliance of the Seven Kingdoms who purposefully half assed the war to weaken the other nations his number one advisor on politics and war

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I can’t say that the only good decision Vol’jin ever made was a mistake.

Thrall should have prepared Garrosh better. So I’ll go with Thrall.

Thrall did fuck up and Garrosh makes that quite QUITE clear in their final confrontation

shall we say it again ? Garrosh did nothing wrong.

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Because he was likely forced to do it by the Loa, under threat of something terrible happening to his soul if he didn't.

Also, if Thrall hadn't picked Garry, Vol'jin would have never even been in a position to pick Sylvanas, so, Thrall made the worse mistake anyways.





You say that as if she doesn't want to kill all humans.

Only because of the decade of attempted genocide on the forsaken by alliance

Also I'm sure the Blood Elves have their own opinions on how the Alliance treats it's allies

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There is an obvious inconsistency in Garrosh's character between Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria, but there is sense in his development following The Burning Crusade. His attitude was based almost solely on how he perceived Grommash, and the revelation that he had in fact saved, not doomed the Horde, was a turning point.

It's also worth pointing out that the ever consistent, "willing to do whatever it takes to protect her people" Sylvanas abandoned the Forsaken and ended her own life following the Lich King's defeat.

He admitted to knowing little of politics, but accepted the mantle when Thrall explained that he could rely on others to make up for his shortcoming. Of course, Cairne proceeded to almost immediately turn on him.

what inconsistency

He calls Thrall weak and tells him to take over the continent during the Wotlk Prepatch before they have a mak'gora before WRATH even starts.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Blizzard.

Whatever happened with being laconic

[Schattenlied]

Only because of the decade of attempted genocide on the forsaken by alliance

You says that as if Sylvanas wasn't hostile towards the Alliance all the way back in WC3, or do you not remember her slaughtering the people who willingly helped her reclaim Lordaeron from the scourge, whom she promised the city to once it was cleared, and then betrayed?


When she and her people tried to join the Alliance and got "rejected"... It was her fault, she could have kept her word, and in doing so earned trust with the Alliance, people would have been able to spread word that there were good undead, she chose instead to lie to and murder them.

[anaxie]

You says that as if Sylvanas wasn't hostile towards the Alliance all the way back in WC3, or do you not remember her slaughtering the people who willingly helped her reclaim Lordaeron from the scourge, whom she promised the city to once it was cleared, and then betrayed?

Garithos is like GOOD HES DEAD NOW GET OUT OF MY CITY FILTHY SCUM

and she kills Garithos

And not even the player mourns because of what he did to Kael the entire blood elven race, and the permanent rift between human and Elven relations.

His forces go on to form the Scarlet Crusade and Alliance kills Scarlet Cruade

So in short. You're wrong

oh and lets not forget SYLVANAS reclaimed the city
Sylvanas lead Arthas into a trap that had him giving up until KT showed up
Sylvanas ALONE subdued Varimathras
Sylvanas ALONE subdued Detheroc and Freed Garithos's weak mnd controlled forces
Then Sylvanas Defendeds Tirisfal from Alliance warmongers, Scarlets, Legion insurgents, and the Scourge/Cult of the Damned for the following 7-8 years

but before that Sylvanas sent Emmissaries to Stormwind a the only human nation not ravaged by the Undead. The Humans killed the and lead incursions deep into Forsaken territory in Vanilla , in Wotlk, During Cata, And once again in BFA as we come full circle.







No character in Warcraft has ever deserved to be killed more than Garithos.

Hes saying this to the Prince to the Quel'Thalas after what the events of the Third War

[Deleted]

Blizzard made the bigger mistake. Handing over control of the Horde to Garrosh made no sense, and Vol'jin was just a bad warchief cause the writers were lazy during WoD and didn't give him anything to do.

If you ask me, what they should've done is have Thrall as a world shaman neglect his duty to the Horde during the Cataclysm. So much so that the Alliance wins against the Horde in some places. Then Garrosh steps in and challenges Thrall to Mak'gora again. He defeats Thrall and Thrall leaves Orgrimmar, going on a spiritual journey to find his path in life. "Was I a bad warchief?" "Is the Horde better off with Garrosh?" Eventually Garrosh leads the Horde down a dark path and Thrall realizes he has to step in and save his people. He returns, kills Garrosh and resumes his role as warchief.

They tend to plan what the expansion will be about even as much as two years in advance, it probably took you less than two years to come up with a better storyline.

Surely they'd sit down and think the whole story over, long before launch, over the course of two years, someone working there is bound to find a flaw in the story and how it could be improved.

But instead it's just stuff that feel like last minute homework improvisation. Like they did nothing for two years, and just quickly came up with it in last second, heavens above, makes me wonder what do they get paid for? They'd have tons of time to make a good underwater ascended 4D chess tier-story.