"This game is too luck/rng dependent!!"

[einaschern]

In WoW, if you don't get a perfectly rolled drop, the item is often just vendor trash.

If that's the case, you're either a) doing too easy of content and need to move to the next level, or b) have the content on farm for a significant enough time where the raid is geared.
In either event, your point is moot.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Gotta love the rose colored glasses on some people. Did the people who whine about bad luck even play in vanilla? You know, back when bosses dropped two pieces of loot each to split between 40 people? And sometimes you couldn't even use it for your raid due to shaman gear dropping for alliance or paladin gear dropping for horde? You could easily go months without getting a single piece of loot.

I know I hated Vanilla as well.

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If that's the case, you're either a) doing too easy of content and need to move to the next level, or b) have the content on farm for a significant enough time where the raid is geared.
In either event, your point is moot.

It's not moot the game is an rpg gear is important.

[einaschern]

I know I hated Vanilla as well.

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It's not moot the game is an rpg gear is important.

It's an unrealistic expectation of a game with a finite amount of difficulties to expect to always be able to gain an upgrade.

Do we keep farming mythic guldan and praying for that titanforged whispers, yet complaining when it doesn't drop? No, we acknowledge that that raid has been out X amount of weeks/months and move on. If your whole raid is geared and there is nothing to trade, then consider doing something else since you're not going to have a progression path.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

It's an unrealistic expectation of a game with a finite amount of difficulties to expect to always be able to gain an upgrade.

Do we keep farming mythic guldan and praying for that titanforged whispers, yet complaining when it doesn't drop? No, we acknowledge that that raid has been out X amount of weeks/months and move on. If your whole raid is geared and there is nothing to trade, then consider doing something else since you're not going to have a progression path.

It's not at all argus trinkets and boe vendors are two great examples. Also 985 recipes that drop from Mythic Argus only would be dope.

We can also just go back to wrath where when a best in slot drops was just best in slot and didn't come from other difficulties. Collecting gear is a part of a role playing game and ill defend it until the servers shut down.

They're now removing master loot which is robbing players of even more control.

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For the last time this game is NOT Diablo. It is not a dungeon crawler where you 1 shot hundreds of mobs for thousands of drops of loot.

How does it NOT matter? Running a Heroic raid and not getting a single worthwhile drop from every boss + token rolls is extremely disheartening.

I have vendored hundreds if not thousands of worthless epics in Legion.

You would've vendor them without titan-forging though. Mythic loot would be 940 and heroic loot would stop at 945 without titan-forging there be one less reason to revisiting that content.

[hebere]

Gotta love the rose colored glasses on some people. Did the people who whine about bad luck even play in vanilla? You know, back when bosses dropped two pieces of loot each to split between 40 people? And sometimes you couldn't even use it for your raid due to shaman gear dropping for alliance or paladin gear dropping for horde? You could easily go months without getting a single piece of loot.

These kinds of arguments are so tired and inane.

Yes, you used to do/experience it differently. And now it has changed.

It's like, people used to smoke in doors, when pregnant, while drinking heavily. For the most part, they don't any more since education and experience have taught us it is bad. In other words, the context has changed as have the discussions.

But I'll let you get back to walking uphill both ways, in the snow without shoes.

[SirCowdog]

If that's the case, you're either a) doing too easy of content and need to move to the next level, or b) have the content on farm for a significant enough time where the raid is geared.
In either event, your point is moot.

I think you either misunderstood my point, or maybe I didn't do a very good job of explaining it.

In WoW, drops are so specific to each character and role, getting drops that don't have the exact perfect stats that your build needs are useless. This is aggravated by the fact that within each character spec there is generally only one optimal build. And even if you get a perfectly-rolled piece of gear for one of your other specs you still only have, at most, 2 other specs to choose from(If you're playing arms, you'd only have fury and prot as alternatives). And a lot of times you're only interested in playing one spec out of the three, or maybe only one of your specs is actually optimal(such as with triple DPS classes).

So when you put in the time to clear an entire dungeon or raid, and you actually get a drop, if it doesn't have the correct stats for your spec, you're assed out. There's just too many ways for that to NOT happen: You just don't get a drop, you get the wrong secondaries, it's a duplicate of a slot you've already got, it's got badly rolled Azerite traits, etc, etc, etc.

This is what people mean when they say layered RNG is being used badly in WoW. It's not that randomized equipment is inherently bad. It's that WoW is restricted by too many factors. It's NOT fun to do a lot of work to get gear, only to have that gear be weak or sub-optimal. The ratio of good drops to bad drops is way out of tune.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Exactly.

Titanforging is one the 8 odd layers of RNG I talked about.

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How is his point moot.

Nothing you have said in your last 5 posts makes a shred of sense. You're literally arguing for the sake of it.

The same fucking gear drops in every difficulty. If I am a Heroic raider. I clear Heroic for upgrades. This is made worse by titanforging because technically you can get Mythic level loot from any source.


The current level of RNG was artificially implemented to extend play time. That's the only argument there is. Sorry the truth hurts and your favourite company purposefully designs its games to frustrate the fanbase and increase its time played metric.

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Exactly.

No one in this thread can claim that they haven't vendored thousands of epics this expansion.

When only 2 stats are important for each spec and there's only 1 viable build...

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I think your posts are too detailed for him to understand.

My only issue is you'd still be vendor those epics without titan-forging. Titan-forging adds replay ability but the current reward structure is completely fucked.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Yeah and you vendor them anyway?

Replay-ability for addicted people, sure.


The rest of us look at it and think - I'm never going to get BiS anymore so why bother? Once I clear Heroic of the current raid I un-sub if I can't find anything else to do.

Running the same god damn content on 4 different difficulties is not my idea of "fun".

But you'd have vendor the drops with or without titan forging.

I know the rewards structures is completely fucked but without titanforging you'd be vendor all of those drops anyway.

[PrairieChicken]

It is beyond my understanding how they want to incentivize people to run (same) content that they outgear. If anything they should incentivize making more alts so that people would play stuff differently, not with same char over and over again (Of course, devs with their EQ dinosaur mindsets got fixed in this "stick to your main, alts are blasphemy" idea since MoP so not gonna happen)

[kamuimac]

Yeah and you vendor them anyway?

Replay-ability for addicted people, sure.


The rest of us look at it and think - I'm never going to get BiS anymore so why bother? Once I clear Heroic of the current raid I un-sub if I can't find anything else to do.

Running the same god damn content on 4 different difficulties is not my idea of "fun".

they should implement some sort of "forging' ability - this way no drops would be usless

imagine if any drop could be "reforged" into matrials and then those materials could be used for adding gems slots/ additional itlv / tertiary sstats into every single piece of gear

this would put in ton of replayability into game

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But you'd have vendor the drops with or without titan forging.

I know the rewards structures is completely fucked but without titanforging you'd be vendor all of those drops anyway.

they are scrwed either way

people are just too efficient with game atm .

without titanforging people would be done with 90% of content in game in a month.

[shade3891]

Rng is part of the game without it you would be done in a week. Its there to keep you playing.

[SirCowdog]

without titanforging people would be done with 90% of content in game in a month.

And what does that tell you about the actual quality of the gameplay?

[Doffen]

And what does that tell you about the actual quality of the gameplay?

Well that is what happened in TBC, WotLK, Cata etc. So shitty gameplay since forever? (Thank you for the leveling paths BTW. I link it to guildies etc who wants to level as well as using it myself. You rock!)

And bullshit from those who says you were guaranteed to get the items you wanted eventually back then. It happened so many times were people didn't get what they wanted(hello MoB and Deathbringers Will)Still the same now of course. Hell when I got my tier21 chest for my mage, it only took 7 months and I got it in LFR of pure desperation. Luckily got it in heroic(warforged wohoo) weeks after. Point is, bad rng always feels bad. You either get over it, or you don't. I see players here who hates TF, but still play. I guess people get over it.

[Doffen]

Maybe they should just make better content?


The replay-ability of the stuff they make nowadays just isn't there is it?

We didn't need these artificial RNG treadmills in the past. Nor did we need ridiculous AP grinds.

People were happy to repeat the same content over and over because.... It was fun?

No I agree somewhat, in TBC it was raiding only. It wasn't anything else for players. But I loved the way raiding was in TBC, and would want it back. Then again, the poor people who got less time etc would see half the raiding content. In WotLK most people could see it all, but not much to do outside of it.

Now in Legion we got Mythic+ wich is good for replayable content. We can go for higher keys to see how far we can get. Gear and material rewards isn't everything. IMO World Quests is the best iteration of dailies ever. But of course not all agree with that.

When it comes to raiding in Legion I think it could be better, and at least heroic should be tuned harder. Legion was probably worse for Heroic raiders than in WoD(and WoD AS expac was shit, no replayable content) since it's tuned way to light. So it's on farm for too long for guilds that do heroic only because they don't have the numbers for mythic.

When it comes to AP and stuff the start of Legion was a bit too grindy. Not Vanilla grindy, but too close to that. Personally I had no problem with it. But it improved immensly in 7.2 for sure.

[SirCowdog]

Well that is what happened in TBC, WotLK, Cata etc. So shitty gameplay since forever? (Thank you for the leveling paths BTW. I link it to guildies etc who wants to level as well as using it myself. You rock!)

And bullshit from those who says you were guaranteed to get the items you wanted eventually back then. It happened so many times were people didn't get what they wanted(hello MoB and Deathbringers Will)Still the same now of course. Hell when I got my tier21 chest for my mage, it only took 7 months and I got it in LFR of pure desperation. Luckily got it in heroic(warforged wohoo) weeks after. Point is, bad rng always feels bad. You either get over it, or you don't. I see players here who hates TF, but still play. I guess people get over it.

It's not that the gameplay is shitty. It's actually not bad. It just doesn't deserve to be repeated as often as the game requires in order to gear up.

In other words, the natural lifespan of the content is VERY short. And Blizzard knows this. This is WHY there are things like daily and weekly lockouts. This WHY there is so much layered RNG.

That's not to say you can't still have fun if running the same dungeons and raids over and over and over again is what you want. But people need to recognize that it's a fair criticism of this design to say that over-use of layered RNG shouldn't be a replacement for better, longer-lasting content.

EDIT: BTW, chances are I won't be updating the leveling guide for some time after BfA launches, since I won't be buying it right away. I have to wait and see what Blizzard actually does with the game, and I'm sure as hell not pre-ordering.

[Doffen]

It's not that the gameplay is shitty. It's actually not bad. It just doesn't deserve to be repeated as often as the game requires in order to gear up.

In other words, the natural lifespan of the content is VERY short. And Blizzard knows this. This is WHY there are things like daily and weekly lockouts. This WHY there is so much layered RNG.

That's not to say you can't still have fun if running the same dungeons and raids over and over and over again is what you want. But people need to recognize that it's a fair criticism of this design to say that over-use of layered RNG shouldn't be a replacement for better, longer-lasting content.

Yeah, makes sense that. Like in Legion the content is pretty good. But for raids for example it could improve a bit, at least Heroic wich I think is way undertuned. Makes it on farm too long. But seeing they tune it around forging of gear, it is probably a reason for that feeling and I can see that point. Warforged/Titanforging could definitely work with a cap of some sort. They said they nerfed TF in BfA quite a bit. Seeing Azerite armor can't forge and weapons only warforge. Perhaps an improvement.

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I didn't raid at all in the earlier expansions. I'm Australian. To raid you had to join a US guild and get on in the mornings at 8am. Something someone with a life cannot do.

I wonder what I was playing? Hmmm.

Didjerido?

You didn't have Australian guilds before? You missed some fine raiding in TBC.

[SirCowdog]

You didn't have Australian guilds before? You missed some fine raiding in TBC.

I raided with some NZ/AUS players back in TBC. It was.....difficult.

Their Internet providers were shitgarbagebad back then, not to mention trying to connect to US servers from across the ocean. The GOOD players had to make due with a 400-600ms ping. The bad times were when the MT of the raid group constantly had 2000ms spikes and couldn't position correctly.

Honestly, it's amazing we made any progress at all.

Having said that, however, there were other things to do besides raiding. I chased down the Raven Lord mount after 75 runs through Heroic Sethekk halls on my druid. I did a fair amount of battlegrounds and crafting/gathering for the guild too. Played lots of alts.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Well that is what happened in TBC, WotLK, Cata etc. So shitty gameplay since forever? (Thank you for the leveling paths BTW. I link it to guildies etc who wants to level as well as using it myself. You rock!)

And bullshit from those who says you were guaranteed to get the items you wanted eventually back then. It happened so many times were people didn't get what they wanted(hello MoB and Deathbringers Will)Still the same now of course. Hell when I got my tier21 chest for my mage, it only took 7 months and I got it in LFR of pure desperation. Luckily got it in heroic(warforged wohoo) weeks after. Point is, bad rng always feels bad. You either get over it, or you don't. I see players here who hates TF, but still play. I guess people get over it.

I might quit over it but when you have a problem with an ingame system you should just stop talking about it. Cause that fixes problems.

[einaschern]

Exactly.

Titanforging is one the 8 odd layers of RNG I talked about.

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How is his point moot.

Nothing you have said in your last 5 posts makes a shred of sense. You're literally arguing for the sake of it.

The same fucking gear drops in every difficulty. If I am a Heroic raider. I clear Heroic for upgrades. This is made worse by titanforging because technically you can get Mythic level loot from any source.


The current level of RNG was artificially implemented to extend play time. That's the only argument there is. Sorry the truth hurts and your favourite company purposefully designs its games to frustrate the fanbase and increase its time played metric.

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Exactly.

No one in this thread can claim that they haven't vendored thousands of epics this expansion.

When only 2 stats are important for each spec and there's only 1 viable build...

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I think your posts are too detailed for him to understand.

Talk about projecting.
If you think because something looks the same in LFR as it does in another difficulty that it means it is the same gear, then you're so far off-base that I'm done here.
Keep being upset, though, buddy.

[Doffen]

I raided with some NZ/AUS players back in TBC. It was.....difficult.

Their Internet providers were shitgarbagebad back then, not to mention trying to connect to US servers from across the ocean. The GOOD players had to make due with a 400-600ms ping. The bad times were when the MT of the raid group constantly had 2000ms spikes and couldn't position correctly.

Honestly, it's amazing we made any progress at all.

Having said that, however, there were other things to do besides raiding. I chased down the Raven Lord mount after 75 runs through Heroic Sethekk halls on my druid. I did a fair amount of battlegrounds and crafting/gathering for the guild too. Played lots of alts.

Sorry, it wasn't directed to you. Thanks for the info though, must have been hell :P

But yeah, the last phrase is what I do myself. It's what I call content, even though it is repeatable content. Lots of people just don't see it as content though. And in TBC you had to do some yourself to create it. For me it was all raiding back then. I sure farmed all the reps for mount and so on, and I think that is fantastic content. Skittish, Netherwing etc. But people just think that is a big grind wich is no fun. For me that grind is meaningful and that makes it fun for me. I get it though, that people don't see it as content. When it comes to Legion, we got so much different content to do. For me it is a big difference compared to TBC, as an example.