Bfa Beta Club - Ret Paladins

[Kalisandra]

Nice tip.

I still don't get why anyone cares about mobility for PVE, its the last place where I worry about mobility... Bosses and mobs hardly move much...

PvP is where mobility is a real factor.

For questing, moving from mob to mob when they're too close to be worth mounting. Faster runspeed makes the whole process go faster and more pleasantly. Also, for raiding - there's often fire to get out of, and faster movement out gives a margin of safety, whilst faster movement back in means less time off target, and thus more DPS. More DPS means the fight's over sooner, and is thus easier.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

For questing, moving from mob to mob when they're too close to be worth mounting. Faster runspeed makes the whole process go faster and more pleasantly. Also, for raiding - there's often fire to get out of, and faster movement out gives a margin of safety, whilst faster movement back in means less time off target, and thus more DPS. More DPS means the fight's over sooner, and is thus easier.

True, I definitely can't argue with that. But the constellation is I'm able to solo elite mobs that some of my other melee classes can't do because of my bubble and heals. As well as drop from extreme heights an bubble for safety cause you know how crazy pathways can be when questing lool

[Fatel]

Nice tip.

I still don't get why anyone cares about mobility for PVE, its the last place where I worry about mobility... Bosses and mobs hardly move much...

PvP is where mobility is a real factor.

Or having the tank and 2 other dps engaged in an M+ while youre still running to the fight. I 'get' travel forms - but they they should be out the window in dungeons and everyone should have the same move speed. And as for raids - what he said

[SirCowdog]

And its the one thing keeping those two classes from being OP so what you expect?

Lets start thinking rationally here, if Ret had the mobility of a Warrior what class could possibly beat it? Considering we have immunity bubble and wings as well as healing.

I'm fine with not being as mobile as a warrior its just the way it has to be.

Tho i'd like to get Long Arm of the Law back as an option.

"What class could beat it". Are we talking about PVP here? Because that's what PVP talents and War Mode are for. If we're talking about PVE, then it's VERY easy to adjust class abilities and DPS/HPS/or life/mitigation for tanks.

What I would like to see is giving Paladins or DKs an option totrade some of their various survival abilities for mobility. Give up a bubble for more movement speed. Nerf "wings"(lol, as though other DPS classes don't have CDs) or alter it so it provides speed. Sac an unholy pet for a movement buff. Something along those lines.

Because being one of the two slowest classes in the entire game ISN'T fun. It used to be you could get around this by using Legendaries, but those are going away. So where does that leave these two classes?

[Bane-Thunder-God]

"What class could beat it". Are we talking about PVP here? Because that's what PVP talents and War Mode are for. If we're talking about PVE, then it's VERY easy to adjust class abilities and DPS/HPS/or life/mitigation for tanks.

What I would like to see is giving Paladins or DKs an option totrade some of their various survival abilities for mobility. Give up a bubble for more movement speed. Nerf "wings"(lol, as though other DPS classes don't have CDs) or alter it so it provides speed. Sac an unholy pet for a movement buff. Something along those lines.

Because being one of the two slowest classes in the entire game ISN'T fun. It used to be you could get around this by using Legendaries, but those are going away. So where does that leave these two classes?

And yes I was talking about PVP.

I also thought the same thing, if there was a movement talent that replaces bubble, but that would hurt the class fantasy in a way so I can't see blizzard going for that. But yes I agree, we'd have to sacrifice defensives for mobility. Its a fair trade.

But with our current defensives, we can't also have Warrior like mobility. Considering Shield of Veng is far better on beta than the live version.

[SirCowdog]

And yes I was talking about PVP.

I also thought the same thing, if there was a movement talent that replaces bubble, but that would hurt the class fantasy in a way so I can't see blizzard going for that. But yes I agree, we'd have to sacrifice defensives for mobility. Its a fair trade.

But with our current defensives, we can't also have Warrior like mobility. Considering Shield of Veng is far better on beta than the live version.

Class fantasy needs to DIAF. It's a cop out explanation to avoid designing better gameplay mechanics.

Sorry, triggered there for a bit. I blame "Class Fantasy" for most of the terrible design choices Blizzard made in recent years.


I think we're mostly in agreement, however. There should be options. Tradeoffs. But in the meantime I just won't personally play DK or Paladin, even though I REALLY like the theme of those classes. I just can't handle being a slow-ass RP walking damage sponge. It's not fun at all.

[Just1c3]

I like Ret rotationally for the most part. I've played Rogue for long enough to be fine with small portions of downtime in a rotation (energy pooling) so even if Ret ends up with a bit of downtime, I'm cool with it.

Gotta admit though, the lack of mobility really bothers me. I miss older times when Ret was the fastest Plate class in the game. I understand the whole "we can't let Paladins be as mobile as Warriors" argument, I totally get that, but I think Warriors can have one kind of mobility, and Ret could have a different kind of mobility. Warriors get the "jump from one place to another" thing, but that doesn't necessarily preclude Paladins from getting something like "moves a bit faster passively" ala old Pursuit of Justice.

But I gotta say, my favorite change is the Judgment window. I was NOT a fan of that. It'd have been fine if they gave it a "the cooldown is now just as long as the duration so you can have 100% uptime on it" like Arms Warriors got for Colossus Smash in Legion, but... idk, there's something deeply annoying about the idea of a "you do insane damage during this small window of time, but kinda lame damage the rest of the time"... Maybe some folks liked it, but it just didn't feel right to me. I wasn't a fan of that playstyle.

[MBDTF]

Think he means blade of wrath procs getting two charges not DP

This brings up even more questions

[bkn0x]

I just lived my account to get ready for BFA! I Think I want to main a ret haven't played one since waaaay back when haha. I was wondering if any of you beta guys could help me with a question! Im guessing its too early to tell now but! Think ret will have a bigger roll or more invites in M+ for BFA? I know we will always get raid invites for the most part. I saw Method took a ret on all their world first in Antorus so that's cool! I Just don't see any rets in top like 500 for M+

[Eurytos]

How do you get DP to stack twice if it procs off finishers? like once you obtain one stack how do you obtain a second one? Is there something I'm missing here?

Lets say you spend 3 holy power, get a DP proc, consume the DP proc? then what? it goes to 2 stacks then you consume both with 2 more finishers?

Or is the implication here that otherwise normal DP procs give you two free finishers? If this is the case can someone elaborate on how this would otherwise motivate further saving DP procs?

This is right. I wasn't thinking this fully out. Though, I think maybe Nym and I were thinking along the same lines, jumping to the idea of saving procs as the blue mentioned...but of course you can't really do it. It doesn't work that way, as you have pointed out. Guess I jumped the gun there a bit.

But I do think this still illustrates the problem with "tactically" using DP procs. You cant really do it. Surely we wont be waiting til the last second before the proc expires to press it in hopes its buffed by other means. The problems with that are fairly self evident. Wasting time between possible new procs, wasting HP, wasting gcds, etc.

I guess it doesn't really change anything. When DP procs, we use it like we always have, practically immediately for dmg, or, in the case where we may actually use it for a heal, we are still hitting it immediately because clearly we think we really need the heal or we will die, so there is no sense in holding it for some future time, if we are wasting a DP proc on healing, its gonna be immedaite, otherwise we would just use it for dmg as always. And in that case we are using it essentially immediately too, so as not to waste all the things pointed out previously.

I can't think of a situation in which we would be saving DP procs...maybe I'm wrong, but I dont think this changes anything, we just get a bit more power when we consume it. But it wont change how or when we use it.

[MBDTF]

This is right. I wasn't thinking this fully out. Though, I think maybe Nym and I were thinking along the same lines, jumping to the idea of saving procs as the blue mentioned...but of course you can't really do it. It doesn't work that way, as you have pointed out. Guess I jumped the gun there a bit.

But I do think this still illustrates the problem with "tactically" using DP procs. You cant really do it. Surely we wont be waiting til the last second before the proc expires to press it in hopes its buffed by other means. The problems with that are fairly self evident. Wasting time between possible new procs, wasting HP, wasting gcds, etc.

I guess it doesn't really change anything. When DP procs, we use it like we always have, practically immediately for dmg, or, in the case where we may actually use it for a heal, we are still hitting it immediately because clearly we think we really need the heal or we will die, so there is no sense in holding it for some future time, if we are wasting a DP proc on healing, its gonna be immedaite, otherwise we would just use it for dmg as always. And in that case we are using it essentially immediately too, so as not to waste all the things pointed out previously.

I can't think of a situation in which we would be saving DP procs...maybe I'm wrong, but I dont think this changes anything, we just get a bit more power when we consume it. But it wont change how or when we use it.

My real idea here is the flaws that I brought up prior or rather, wanted an explanation as to how a second or stacking DP would work in saving procs in the future.

Saying that saving DP procs isn't possible, well yes it isn't possible on a fight that purely operates like a patchwerk, but considering boss fights don't really work that way anymore it'd work just find holding them the way there are now, looking at fights that could have spawning add waves, or priority adds spawning, or adds that have % damage multipliers, hell even phases themselves. Getting a standard DP proc seconds prior could mean a lot especially when it comes to setting up those spawns. after getting a DP proc at the very least you can lag using the stack for 3 gcds and at the very most 5, anything after that you technically take a loss in holy power gen for the buildup, but still could be something worth holding if the payoff justifies the cost.

When I think of two charge BoW or even two stacks DP? How would these promote what I just said already exists any further? One thing someone said to me via discord is it'd be interesting if DP was an off the GCD ability that gains stacks on proc aka, you start at 0, random finishers give you a charge then you consume the charge off GCD to get free finisher, that sounds fine to me in terms of promoting holding DP as you can continue to consume holy power until you want to use the free procs. BUT this is not what was implied atleast by what I read by the people I quoted.

[nyc81991]

So with Art of War being baseline, Ret feels a lot better than it did before. However, there are still glaring issues with talents and mobility.

I still want the Blade of Wrath talent over the other options. Increasing the proc by 100% and 25% extra damage is too good to pass up. I would like to see the extra proc rate baked into Art of War and the talent replaced with Exorcism which would overwrite Blade Of Justice, have a 30 yard range and deal holy damage which would scale with our new mastery.

Divine Judgment needs to not be competing with two AoE + ST abilities that also generate Holy Power. Empowered Divine Storm / Divine Crusader should replace it.

Execution Sentence just feels weird. The original version of it in MoP was better than the current one. Zeal also feels weird.

I also kind of want to see Crusade replaced. I think Seraphim, Seal of Command, Divine Judgment (but better) or Holy Avenger would be good replacements.,

[Varx]

Baseline Art of War feels very lackluster, the proc chance is way too low. IMO they should make it the same rppm as the talent and replace it with BoJ generating 3 HP.

[Melsiren]

Can confirm that Ret feels much better to play right now.

However I feel like a kid mashing a wooden mallet on a xylophone, but I'd rather simple over a complete snooze fest.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

So with Art of War being baseline, Ret feels a lot better than it did before. However, there are still glaring issues with talents and mobility.

I still want the Blade of Wrath talent over the other options. Increasing the proc by 100% and 25% extra damage is too good to pass up. I would like to see the extra proc rate baked into Art of War and the talent replaced with Exorcism which would overwrite Blade Of Justice, have a 30 yard range and deal holy damage which would scale with our new mastery.

Divine Judgment needs to not be competing with two AoE + ST abilities that also generate Holy Power. Empowered Divine Storm / Divine Crusader should replace it.

Execution Sentence just feels weird. The original version of it in MoP was better than the current one. Zeal also feels weird.

I also kind of want to see Crusade replaced. I think Seraphim, Seal of Command, Divine Judgment (but better) or Holy Avenger would be good replacements.,

Nice, cant wait to test it when i get home!

I was thinking the same too, I'd still take Blade of Wrath talent over Hammer of Wrath cause of the damage increase an proc rate increase.

Have you tested Divine purpose? Hows the proc rate and damage boost?

Why do beta builds always go up when im at work

[Kuriyama]

First expansion where I've not had beta access and it feels bad man...
Not surprised if people will want BoW over HoW for more procs. I would definitely take BoW for PVE and probably HoW for PvP.
Thinking ES, HoW and DP for PvP. Zeal, BoW and Inq for PVE.

Yep, I'm gonna be crazy and PvP in BfA. I want me those sweet, sweet honor rewards.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

First expansion where I've not had beta access and it feels bad man...
Not surprised if people will want BoW over HoW for more procs. I would definitely take BoW for PVE and probably HoW for PvP.
Thinking ES, HoW and DP for PvP. Zeal, BoW and Inq for PVE.

Yep, I'm gonna be crazy and PvP in BfA. I want me those sweet, sweet honor rewards.

#Feelsbadman
I've managed to be in every beta since Mists (but that came from the annual pass)

I'd still take BoW over HoW in pvp as Blade of Justice is our highest damaging ability and to get a 25% damage increase is Really going to put it over the top, where as Hammer of Wrath is still quite weak on the damage front and is dependant on wings and execute phase...

[Kuriyama]

#Feelsbadman
I've managed to be in every beta since Mists (but that came from the annual pass)

I'd still take BoW over HoW in pvp as Blade of Justice is our highest damaging ability and to get a 25% damage increase is Really going to put it over the top, where as Hammer of Wrath is still quite weak on the damage front and is dependant on wings and execute phase...

I was mainly thinking HoW in PvP for those lovely Hunters/Mages/everything that kites us, trying to run off with 5% health. Blowing raspberries and a "Ya boo, sucks to be you" only to meet a hammer to the face.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

I was mainly thinking HoW in PvP for those lovely Hunters/Mages/everything that kites us, trying to run off with 5% health. Blowing raspberries and a "Ya boo, sucks to be you" only to meet a hammer to the face.

Hhahahaha totally get that Thats why i love Hammer of Reckoning from the honor talents. it totally wrecks em.

I will try Hammer of Wrath build tho, cause that will mean double hammers if I got Reckoning up

[cryfearlol]

What about the new changes?