If you've read Before the Storm...what did you think? (Spoilers obviously)

[Goldielocks]

Apparently the Naaru have the power to create undead beings, yes. Instead of created by Necromantic or Shadow energy, they're created by Light energy in some manner. From a mechanical standpoint I can see how it would be done, but still a bit fuzzy on the "why" of it.

Next thing you know we'll have necromantic magic healing people like Nature magic does because opposites don't matter anymore I guess? lol

[Aucald]

Next thing you know we'll have necromantic magic healing people like Nature magic does because opposites don't matter anymore I guess? lol

Well, there's already the Shadow Priest spell "Shadow Mend," although I don't know if that helps. Necromantic magic kind of can heal in some ways (preserving flesh, extracting disease, etc. etc.) although that's more esoteric and not really its forte.

[Delekii]

I've just finished reading Before the Storm.

It wasn't what I expected at all. I avoided the excerpts released to remain fully unspoiled for the work and I am glad I did so.

Rather than revealing who or what starts the war, it's tale premised on a idea that a small gesture might lead to something bigger, something greater. I think the premise of the plot was inspired by those reunions between north and south koreans separated by the division of their country.

And of course, it all goes horribly, horribly wrong in the end due to Calia's mistake and Sylvanas's paranoia. The hope embodied by the story turns to ash, and left me feeling subdued and melancholic. It's all just one more breakdown in the relations between the Alliance and the Horde.

My thoughts? I have two major ones.

Firstly, for those who don't see sense in the faction system remaining and who cite the the numerous bigger threats Horde and Alliance have joined together to face, it's a mixed result. On the one hand, you see flashes of potential where the ancient divide could be put to rest, of hope for co-operation. On the other, and this feels far stronger, is the sense of just how much these two factions hate each other. The events of this book compound that. Most members of the two factions don't care what the god like adventurers we play experienced as we fought on Argus it seems. All they know about the other side is the pain visited on them by the other faction.

It would be shocking if BFA ends, as some suspect, with the factions coming to an end. The depths of mutual loathing by the vast majority of either side are just too powerful in my opinion.

Secondly I have no idea what Calia's purpose is now. Is she alive? Or is she a new sort of undead, animated by the light. And is it really her, or is she just a flesh puppet of the naa'ru now?

Lots to consider. The book isn't revelatory or necessary for BFA, but it adds context and texture to all the major players and will surely be important to remember in the war to come.

Nonsense. The sentiments you express are shoehorned into the book and the lead up to bfa to justify the storyline; they make zero contextual sense in the setting they follow.

There is zero rational contextual reason for the two factions to continue fighting at this point. It is impossible to see it as anything other than forced conflict for the sake of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Because she is, you know, the Warchief?

That they follow her "just coz" is the most nonsensical part of it all. Sylvanas should not even be part of the horde, let alone have been put in charge of it. The other racial leaders should have nothing to do with her actions. Following a title is nonsense even in the best of times, let alone in an entity like the horde, which formed from organically shared goals among often tenuous relationships in the first place.

[Qualia]

Wait, the light can raise the dead now? I know Resurrection exists but that's not exactly the same concept.

Odyn's modern Val'kyrs (who are called "beings of the Light" and looks pretty much Light-y in comparison to their older(?) sisters who have a dark and gloomy theme) and his creation of the Valarjar (technically Undead created by infusing souls of dead Vrykul into Titanforged bodies) have been an indication that the Light can raise the dead for a while, I believe. Mechanical-wise, Carlia's new self might be similar to the Valarjar, just with a light-infused "dead" body instead of a new empowered Titanforged body, I think?

[Caerule]

I am still reading. About 2/3rd in. So I'm avoiding reading posts here yet.

While it certainly goes into things I do not enjoy about the theme of BfA, such as Sylvanas as clearly antagonistically inclined, and only doing the right thing when she feels forced to, the story itself so far I have enjoyed.

I did not like War Crimes. It was a crap book in my opinion. A lot of story was recycled exerps. There was no plot advancements beyond Garrosh' escape. Every other plotline began and ended within the book without impacting the story of Azeroth in any meaningful way beyond how the story of a Simpsons episode effects the Simpsons the following week. We got barely any new lore details of Azeroth. And the characters we saw explored were somewhat limited.


This book does not have those complaints for me. It explores a great deal of characters, both famous and common. It does plenty of world-building and fleshing out of Azeroth and its lore. Many story threads of the past and present are pulled on, and new events are seeded.

I still don't like the theme of BfA, which impacted my reading of this book, which sets that up. But I've found it a very good read so far nonetheless. Even having read all the previews. So yeah, I would recommend people buy this.

[Brubear]

Yeah right "Old Horde", "True Horde", "Iron Horde", were going to have to make up a new name for Sylvanas' Horde too now so we can pretend that her actions have nothing to do with the rest of the obviously peaceful Horde.

Black Horde?
Dark Horde?
Pallid Horde?
Grey Horde? (Morally AND skin tone!)

"Coming in BfA, Horde 5.0! This time with even more shades of moral grey!"

[Aucald]

I am about 2/3's of the way through it as well, and there have been a couple important lore tidbets I found that weren't covered in the excerpt material. So far:

1.) Veleera Sanguinar has pretty much conclusively shown that her allegiance is to the Alliance - she was Varian's and now Anduin's personal spy above and beyond even Matthias Shaw and SI:7. Valeera basically can move more or less freely among the Horde and report intelligence as well as correspondence back to Anduin in Stormwind. She has zero issues sneaking into even the most secure areas of Stormwind's center of power.

2.) Anduin's oft-mocked "bone/spidey sense" is tied to his emotions and doesn't grant him any supernatural foresight. Basically put, whenever Anduin is influenced by anger, hate, or rage the pain of his old injuries return - and when he is calm or at peace the pain recedes. He's taken to feeling for that pain as a kind of internal barometer, but there's nothing supernatural about it nor does it grant him any kind of clairvoyance.

3.) Baine's friendship with Anduin is a lot more profound than I would've imagined - for such a brief meeting they seem to have made quite the impression on one another. Sylvanas also has agents capable of following even redoubtable Perith Stormhoof (presumably her Dark Rangers), which I found a rather curious development.

4.) Mental damage and dysfunction (a product of putrefaction prior to being raised) is apparently a thing the Forsaken contend with - which may be responsible in part for many of the Forsaken having changes in personality or character from their living days, as well as their general susceptibility to a strong leader exerting an influence over them. The leader of the Desolate Council seems to feel as though the enforced separation of the Forsaken from their previous lives is itself a (perhaps unintentional) manipulation that makes them easier to control.

5.) The Class Order Halls are apparently still functioning at this point in the timeframe - the Conclave is show in depth, but it is mentioned that the other Orders continue to persist and serve as models for the peaceful Azeroth that Anduin wishes to create. He believes that the if the races of the Horde and Alliance can interact without the backdrop of war and with common cause they might begin to forget their grievances and view one another with friendly regard over time.

[Mehrunes]

Hey yeah so we destroyed your homeland/ancestral grounds and there´s no way to ever get it back but don´t worry we just say all is good and forget the whole thing...

Yeah shure totally ok jus let the Hord eget away with everthing because why not...

Are you by any chance referring to Teldrassil with the ancestral grounds bit?

I'm sorry...but...what the fuck? So the Horde is commiting unprovoked aggression towards the Alliance on a destroy-entire-cities-level again,, again and again.....and you say it is the Alliance's fault if there is no peace?!

Again and again and again, you say? You mean like during WotLK-MoP, when factions were at war because Alliance started it?

If memory serves me right the Alliance (and ESPECIALLY the Night Elves) DID forgive the Horde at the end of MoP. They did not insist on repairs for Gilneas, Theramore, Southshore and the devastation in Ashenvale (and please don't come up with that fucking 10-NPC-Camp in the middle of nowehere that nobody even knew the fucking name of before it was destroyed....that camp was even smaller than Southshore, which was the smallest of all losses the Alliance had to carry)...no...they even gave Azshara to the Horde, which was a contested zone.

Because they were the aggressors in that war. Them not demanding anything after they started a war and were losing it spectacularly for the entirety of Cata and then had to team up with the New Horde against Garrosh and his Old Horde redux is kinda a given.

Isn't Teldrassil only like 15 years old?

Even less than that.

Small correction: "the genesis for this renewed faction conflict" is Sylvanas ultimately wanting to end all life on Azeroth, beginning with Stormwind. You cannot really argue that fact after the novel and there is NO WAY this would not have lead to new conflict. No need for Dreadlords or anything, just Sylvanas and a Horde that followes her for NO FUCKING REASON AT ALL. The last part is my main gripe with the current direction of the story.

Your main gripe with the story is something you made up? Then throw that into the garbage and voila, your main gripe magically disappears. Also, if Stormwind wasn't aggressive towards her, she'd have no need to attack them. Because she wants to attack Stormwind to make new Forsaken. Do you know what would completely remove the need to make Forsaken? Making them immortal with infinite Val'kyr. A plan that went up in flames because Alliance attacked her.

It's up for debate. Some folk put it around 15, others closer to 20. But the original poster does have a point about Night Elf ancestral land being destroyed. With the Horde winning the war against the NE (mostly) it means huge swathes of environmental destruction for Darkshore, Ashenvale, Felwood, what's left of Stonetalon Mountains and I'm guessing eventually Feralas. The NEs won't get that back.

It's 12 at most. It was created only after Third War. There was a 4 years gap between then and Vanilla. Vanilla and all expansions sans Cata lasted 1 year. Cata lasted 2.

Oh i can see them for all that is there to it namly giving the Horde just another excuse to do what they do best attack the Alliance and get away with it because it´s ALWAYS not them just some few misguided few poor souls...

Given how Alliance started the previous war, damn, Varian was Horde? I never knew.

Which means nothing when the Horde is written to never recognise them in the first place.

*cough* Barrens (on multiple occasions), Muglore, Silverpine, Durotar, Alterac Valley *cough* Meanwhile the Horde has what, Ashenvale? And not a single starting zone of the Alliance?

I am about 2/3's of the way through it as well, and there have been a couple important lore tidbets I found that weren't covered in the excerpt material. So far:

1.) Veleera Sanguinar has pretty much conclusively shown that her allegiance is to the Alliance - she was Varian's and now Anduin's personal spy above and beyond even Matthias Shaw and SI:7. Valeera basically can move more or less freely among the Horde and report intelligence as well as correspondence back to Anduin in Stormwind. She has zero issues sneaking into even the most secure areas of Stormwind's center of power.

And no one in the Horde realizes that?

2.) Anduin's oft-mocked "bone/spidey sense" is tied to his emotions and doesn't grant him any supernatural foresight. Basically put, whenever Anduin is influenced by anger, hate, or rage the pain of his old injuries return - and when he is calm or at peace the pain recedes. He's taken to feeling for that pain as a kind of internal barometer, but there's nothing supernatural about it nor does it grant him any kind of clairvoyance.

Except for, you know, the part in the last 1/3rd of the book covered by the previews, where his bone spider sense triggered when he was not influenced by anger, hate or rage. Because he started feeling it not only before Dark Rangers started to just fly from Thoradin's Wall towards the field, but before he himself realized that it was happening. Secondly, it receded only after he consulted the Light and decided to follow a path that aligned with Saa'ra's goals.

3.) Baine's friendship with Anduin is a lot more profound than I would've imagined - for such a brief meeting they seem to have made quite the impression on one another. Sylvanas also has agents capable of following even redoubtable Perith Stormhoof (presumably her Dark Rangers), which I found a rather curious development.

Totally not an Alliance sycophant though.

[Aucald]

And no one in the Horde realizes that?

Apparently not yet. Her role as his spy seems to very closely-guarded state secret.

Except for, you know, the part in the last 1/3rd of the book covered by the previews, where his bone spider sense triggered when he was not influenced by anger, hate or rage. Because he started feeling it not only before Dark Rangers started to just fly from Thoradin's Wall towards the field, but before he himself realized that it was happening. Secondly, it receded only after he consulted the Light and decided to follow a path that aligned with Saa'ra's goals.

Anduin was angry and upset at what was happening (regarding Calia and her exhortations to the Forsaken assembled there), and those emotions were triggering the pain. He was shocked and appalled by what was going on and by Calia acting without leave in such a capacity, followed swiftly by Sylvanas' response to that. He invokes the Light to calm himself.

Totally not an Alliance sycophant though.

I don't know if I would go so far to say that makes him a sycophant - Jaina had a strong friendship with Thrall before the destruction of Theramore and I wouldn't call her a Horde sycophant, either. I just thought it more odd that the two individuals could make such an impression on one another after only a few conversations.

[Logwyn]

I think it would be sweet to opt in or out of a peace treaty. You can choose to remain hostile, or you can choose to be friendly with the other faction and group with them. Either way I agree with you.

This seems to be the logical result. Instead of two factions the story keeps wanting to progress till there's three factions. 1-Hard Core Alliance, 2-Hard Core Horde, 3-Faction that is a mix of horde and alliance.

Not sure how well this would translate into game terms but its a logical progression. You have the Corpse Queen and Old wolf-man where the other side must die no matter what.... Then Green Jesus/Boy King where working together is the way.

Its kinda silly how I can run around having a druid, pally, priest class hall commanding both sides members....then pfft DIE!!!!! Also its MY guild. If I want Orcs and Cow-men and goblins in it then I should be able too.....then there's LFR/LFG why not have it pull from both factions? It equals more tanks and healers!

[Mehrunes]

Apparently not yet. Her role as his spy seems to very closely-guarded state secret.

Given how Jaina's comic puts her on the scene of Varian's declaration of war in Undercity, on Alliance side, this state secret appears to be so closely guarded that the Alliance sent an even deeper double agent to lobotomize Thrall and Sylvanas (somehow, even though her brain is biologically not functioning and despite her not sleeping) to make them not remember it. Fascinating. Who could that other agent be? Can't be Baine, because his true allegiance is known. Gamon maybe? He pretended to be a weakling all the way until MoP where he showed that was a lie. Who knows what else he lied about.

Anduin was angry and upset at what was happening (regarding Calia and her exhortations to the Forsaken assembled there), and those emotions were triggering the pain. He was shocked and appalled by what was going on and by Calia acting without leave in such a capacity, followed swiftly by Sylvanas' response to that. He invokes the Light to calm himself.

He moved his attention to Calia and wondering what she was doing because of the pain. The pain triggered only after he heard the horn without any context whatsoever as to why Sylvanas sounded it. As far as he was aware, the horn was a signal to retreat. Which in itself wouldn't case him to feel anger, hatred or rage. And half a page passes between him calling the Light himself and the pain lowering. What immediately precedes the pain dropping? Him making his decision and giving the orders that all aligned with Saa'ra's design.

I don't know if I would go so far to say that makes him a sycophant - Jaina had a strong friendship with Thrall before the destruction of Theramore and I wouldn't call her a Horde sycophant, either. I just thought it more odd that the two individuals could make such an impression on one another after only a few conversations.

Varian did. He wanted to punish her during War Crimes. And she did less to help the Horde during war than Baine did towards the Alliance. Jaina only borrowed her own personal money to Baine. Baine leaked state secrets. And if you liked little human boys like Baine, I'd say it'd be likely you'd latch onto the first one that is receptive to your advances.

[Nathasil]

*snip*

I guess you are from AU Azeroth. Welcome in our world, mate.

In our world, there is something called "sources" and "facts", it mostly exists in written form and may be "quoted" to contribute to an argument.

I'll give you an example:
You say Alliance started the conflict in Cataclysm and give absolutely no quotes at all to back up your pont.
Now i say the Horde started the agression and will quote:

The land of Durotar is naturally harsh, and recent signs of elemental distress and disasters had further weakened the orcs' land. Now without reliable supply routes, and the night elves of Ashenvale refusing to allow trade with the Horde following the Wrathgate fiasco, the citizens of Orgrimmar are on the brink of experiencing a famine. Thrall, Cairne and Hamuul Runetotem resolve to negotiate peacefully with the night elves, as Hamuul holds a high position within the Cenarion Circle comprised of both tauren and night elves. Garrosh is outraged at such a notion. Viewing the Wrathgate as a tragedy to both factions, Garrosh concludes that the night elves boast no right to stand in the way of their survival - and that the orcs should simply take what they need to survive by force.

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Garrosh_He...The_Shattering

Shortly after the shattering,[18] Garrosh personally led his troops into the neighbouring borders of Ashenvale. While his Warsong Clan had made considerable progress over the course of Warchief Thrall's reign, it is a far cry from the ambitions that Warchief Hellscream desires to achieve. Garrosh plans to create a massive city in the heart of the forest, one with the potential to rival Orgrimmar in size and power. With rich minerals ripe for the taking, and all of the tools needed to see his people grow, Garrosh surges viciously through the kaldorei ranks and cuts a swathe of destruction straight to the Silverwing Outpost. Having brought down a number of tamed proto-drakes and magnataur captives from Northrend that he domesticated by holding their young hostage, Garrosh plans to see his dreams of expansion realized.

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Garrosh_He...vale_Offensive

I realise both quotes are second hand sources, but that is still a few orders of magnitude more than what you offered so far.

Also: Why are you so fixated on Teldrassil in the current story outset? What about Ashenvale, Darkshore, the Ancients and HUNDREDS of Night Elves murdered and massacred there by Sylvanas? Maybe because some 15-year old tree is easier to dismiss than that? Just a thought.

[Syegfryed]

There is zero rational contextual reason for the two factions to continue fighting at this point. It is impossible to see it as anything other than forced conflict for the sake of the game.

you are terrible wrong to think there is "zero rational contextual reasons" for the factions continuing to fight, is to be ignorant about all lore set up from warcraft since the beginning

- - - Updated - - -

I guess you are from AU Azeroth. Welcome in our world, mate.

In our world, there is something called "sources" and "facts", it mostly exists in written form and may be "quoted" to contribute to an argument.

I'll give you an example:
You say Alliance started the conflict in Cataclysm and give absolutely no quotes at all to back up your pont.
Now i say the Horde started the agression and will quote:

the alliance started the war in the Wrath of the lich king, Varian declared war in undercity and tried to kill thrall, stopped by Jaina

What happened in cataclysm was a increase of hostilities both by the alliance in durotar and in the barrens together with the night elves breaking the treaty with orgrimmar and by the horde with the incursion of Garrosh and sylvanas around the world

[s3ge]

I guess you are from AU Azeroth. Welcome in our world, mate.

In our world, there is something called "sources" and "facts", it mostly exists in written form and may be "quoted" to contribute to an argument.

I'll give you an example:
You say Alliance started the conflict in Cataclysm and give absolutely no quotes at all to back up your pont.
Now i say the Horde started the agression and will quote:

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Garrosh_He...The_Shattering


Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Garrosh_He...vale_Offensive

I realise both quotes are second hand sources, but that is still a few orders of magnitude more than what you offered so far.

Also: Why are you so fixated on Teldrassil in the current story outset? What about Ashenvale, Darkshore, the Ancients and HUNDREDS of Night Elves murdered and massacred there by Sylvanas? Maybe because some 15-year old tree is easier to dismiss than that? Just a thought.

Brilliant and ironic at the same time. Ever wondered why the night elves refused to trade with the orcs?

"The Battle for the Undercity ended the cold-war between the Alliance and the Horde, with King Varian's declaration of war."

From your own source.

[Mehrunes]

I guess you are from AU Azeroth. Welcome in our world, mate.

In our world, there is something called "sources" and "facts", it mostly exists in written form and may be "quoted" to contribute to an argument.

I realise both quotes are second hand sources, but that is still a few orders of magnitude more than what you offered so far.

I'm sorry, did you provide sources in what I replied to in the first place? No? Then guess what, esteemed genius, your snark here is absolutely baseless. Welcome in our world, mate. In our world there is something called "Hitchen's razor". Which dictates that "what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

You say Alliance started the conflict in Cataclysm and give absolutely no quotes at all to back up your pont.

You mean like you said how the Horde "is commiting unprovoked aggression towards the Alliance on a destroy-entire-cities-level again,, again and again" while giving absolutely no quotes at all to back up your point? Hello double standard.

You say Alliance started the conflict in Cataclysm and give absolutely no quotes at all to back up your pont. Now i say the Horde started the agression and will quote:

And you are wrong. Because I did not say the Alliance started the conflict in Cataclysm. Because the war did not start in Cataclysm, it started in WotLK. More than that, I didn't even use the word Cataclysm and I already laid out the war started in WotLK in the very post you quoted. And we know it started in WotLK thanks to this:

But Varian was not satisfied. Still seething with rage, he marched to the Undercity's throne with blades drawn to confront Thrall. No matter who was truly responsible for the attack at the Wrathgate, Varian Wrynn could not trust the Horde, and he believed the world would be a better place without it. He declared war upon Thrall and his people right then and there.
--Chronicle volume 3

And as the Shattering states, after WotLK the factions only had a ceasefire, not peace (with there being no other story between WotLK and Cata for peace to happen in it).

"Alliance? In our waters?" said Garrosh. "They are in clear violation of the treaty."
Garrosh referred to a treaty between the Horde and the Alliance, signed shortly after the fall of the Lich King. Both factions had been sorely damaged by the long battle, and both sides had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, including the struggles at Alterac Valley, Arathi Basin, and Warsong Gulch, for a brief time.
--The Shattering

Look at that, both are canonical first hand sources. So that is a few orders of magnitude more than what you offered.

Also: Why are you so fixated on Teldrassil in the current story outset? What about Ashenvale, Darkshore, the Ancients and HUNDREDS of Night Elves murdered and massacred there by Sylvanas? Maybe because some 15-year old tree is easier to dismiss than that? Just a thought.

Because Ashenvale, Darkshore and the rest are not relevant to the age of Teldrassil, which is the topic I was discussing? Which is patently obvious, given how most of the post about Teldrassil I addressed outright addressed its age first, one of them being a question about it. But maybe honestly ignoring the obvious topic of my remarks about Teldrassil makes it easier to make a jab at me? Just a thought.

[Flurryfang]

Just a question to people who have read the book:

How essential is this book for understanding the start of BFA? Are we at the level of War Crimes or are we in the area of Chronicles?

[Mehrunes]

Just a question to people who have read the book:

How essential is this book for understanding the start of BFA? Are we at the level of War Crimes or are we in the area of Chronicles?

Eh, not much. Blizzard is supposed to release two short stories, one for each faction, much more oriented about the start of war from the perspective of each faction.

[DeicideUH]

Eh, not much. Blizzard is supposed to release two short stories, one for each faction, much more oriented about the start of war from the perspective of each faction.

Wow, I didn't know that.

This makes a lot of sense, since Blizzard has been releasing weekly content to prepare for BfA. So, I'll guess this is the schedule:

05/22 - Jaina comic
05/29 - Magni comic
06/05 - Windrunner comic
06/12 - Before the Storm book
06/19 - Short story (Alliance?)
06/26 - Short story (Horde?)
07/03 - Artifact send-off quest activated ("Unstable artifact" visual enabled, but weapon is still functional)
07/10 - 8.0 release
07/17 - Darkshore content starts
07/24 - ??? (Burning of Teldrassil?)
07/31 - ???
08/07 - ??? (Battle of Lordaeron?)
08/14 - Battle for Azeroth release

[Xtrm]

I must say as an Alliance player, this book makes me dislike Sylvanas even more. I get how she's portrayed, cold, distant, etc. But the way she thinks about and interacts with her own people is awful. She's supposed to have all races in mind, yet shows contempt for everyone she encounters. Then, obviously, her actions at the end are horrific.

I highly doubt Blizzard will kill off Sylvanas simply due to her massive army of followers. Yet, I really do believe that by the end of BfA, she cannot be warchief.

[Obelisk Kai]

Anduin was angry and upset at what was happening (regarding Calia and her exhortations to the Forsaken assembled there), and those emotions were triggering the pain. He was shocked and appalled by what was going on and by Calia acting without leave in such a capacity, followed swiftly by Sylvanas' response to that. He invokes the Light to calm himself.

I think his 'spider-sense' is the light very, VERY subtly trying to influence him.

Remember, he searched for his spider sense when trying to consider whether bringing Calia was a bad idea or not, and he felt nothing.

Bringing Calia turned out to be a terrible idea as she got everyone killed and allowed Sylvanas to solidify her position within the Horde. It was the wrong decision. Yet the light didn't warn him away. Was it the purity of Calia's intentions that ensured he wouldn't get a warning signal...or did the light have an ulterior motive?

After all, bringing Calia may have been completely in light with the light's purpose, if the purpose was for her to die and be brought back as a light based undead.