PvP gear in BfA

[Thunderbleem]

From the front page:

"With gear mattering once again in PvP, the team wants to give people a reliable path to the gear they want."

Does this mean PvP templates are gone in BfA? Or what?

[Kagthul]

From the front page:

"With gear mattering once again in PvP, the team wants to give people a reliable path to the gear they want."

Does this mean PvP templates are gone in BfA? Or what?

who knows. Gear mattered more in Legion than ever before, despite their claims otherwise.

[Warning]

who knows. Gear mattered more in Legion than ever before, despite their claims otherwise.

Come on that's pretty obviously not true. Legion gear differences in PVP were tiny compared to what we've had before.

[Kagthul]

Come on that's pretty obviously not true. Legion gear differences in PVP were tiny compared to what we've had before.

... no, really it is true.

We did this entire thing with math. Three times now. Twice before Legion kicked off (once during the Alpha and once during the Beta) and once again after.

The difference between trivially-obtained Honor gear (often mere hours of work and often without even having to actually PvP) and Conquest gear was 9.4%.

So, the WORST disparity you could have was 9.4%. It was often quite lower because getting that Honor gear would often also land you at least 2 Conquest pieces, sometimes 3.

In Legion, you gain 1% stats on your template per 10 iLevels above 800. I do not raid, do not do rated PvP, and barely log in at this point. All six of my toons are 948-952. People who actively raid are in the 980 range.

So, i'm 15% above someone who just dinged, who still has several days of work to do to unlock his Honor talents, and get his iLevel up.. because casual PvP doesn't reward shit.

So, as a complete casual who isn't even PvPing right now (because its so god-fucking-awful; and i used to do PvP as my primary end-game activity for the entire previous life of WoW)... im 15% above. Thats about 6% worse than it was possible to be in previous Xpacs.

Raiders are 18-20% above.

Gear doesn't matter less, it matters more.

The entire "gear doesn't matter as much" thing was a lie from minute one and it was proven both on their own forums and these forums with math.

And thats JUST the difference you get from iLevel - the flat % gain. Until the most recent patch made artifact catch-up trivial, people hitting the level cap had WEEKS of catching up to do at the very least. So for most of the xpac you were 9-10% behind in gear (and more later on), and trait-less, and PvP-talent-less..

The actual stat differential could be upwards of 30% with traits factored in. (Which, i will grant, is no longer the case, 14 months into the expansion).

It was worse than ever.

[szandos]

Tbh I'm not that picky about percentages, I just want pvp gear to be better in pvp than pve gear, and vice versa. Today I can spend all day doing pvp and still have worse gear in pvp than someone slaying dragons 6 hours a week.

[Deleted]

Well since I suck at rated team pvp, I'm gonna have to contend with my heroic raid gear that is better than what 80% of pvp-ers are wearing because they also suck at rated team pvp but they keep insisting in vain.

[Resentless]

... no, really it is true.

We did this entire thing with math. Three times now. Twice before Legion kicked off (once during the Alpha and once during the Beta) and once again after.

The difference between trivially-obtained Honor gear (often mere hours of work and often without even having to actually PvP) and Conquest gear was 9.4%.

So, the WORST disparity you could have was 9.4%. It was often quite lower because getting that Honor gear would often also land you at least 2 Conquest pieces, sometimes 3.

In Legion, you gain 1% stats on your template per 10 iLevels above 800. I do not raid, do not do rated PvP, and barely log in at this point. All six of my toons are 948-952. People who actively raid are in the 980 range.

So, i'm 15% above someone who just dinged, who still has several days of work to do to unlock his Honor talents, and get his iLevel up.. because casual PvP doesn't reward shit.

So, as a complete casual who isn't even PvPing right now (because its so god-fucking-awful; and i used to do PvP as my primary end-game activity for the entire previous life of WoW)... im 15% above. Thats about 6% worse than it was possible to be in previous Xpacs.

Raiders are 18-20% above.

Gear doesn't matter less, it matters more.

The entire "gear doesn't matter as much" thing was a lie from minute one and it was proven both on their own forums and these forums with math.

And thats JUST the difference you get from iLevel - the flat % gain. Until the most recent patch made artifact catch-up trivial, people hitting the level cap had WEEKS of catching up to do at the very least. So for most of the xpac you were 9-10% behind in gear (and more later on), and trait-less, and PvP-talent-less..

The actual stat differential could be upwards of 30% with traits factored in. (Which, i will grant, is no longer the case, 14 months into the expansion).

It was worse than ever.

I've realised something we all missed when discussing that about templates. It's not a 30% pure stat gain. Like you get 30% crit more or 30% strength more. It's 15% of whatever your original templated stat is. Which ends up being a very very small number when you add 15% of THAT. You say 15% like it's a big difference in stats, when really it was always only a tiny amount of + whereas you got raw stat upgrades from gear in WoD. Which would indeed put you at 9% stronger. In legion, the only thing you really miss from a 980 player Vs a 800 player is HP and 2-3% of your secondaries. You can check this for yourself if you have a low ilvl alt of the same class. My 790 DH alt has 31% crit in PvP, my 975 has 35%. Yet he's 17% stronger supposedly.

Secondly, you were saying this at the BEGINNING of legion when gear really did matter a lot less, as the mythic raiders were only at 880 while the average player was only at 850, yet you were still saying gear had more of an impact than WoD. Were you wrong then or?

And I still stand by gearing is super easy in legion. My other alt DH went from 770-900 in 2 hours just from world quests/random bgs/beginning of argus, and that's even with some PvP.

[Kagthul]

I've realised something we all missed when discussing that about templates. It's not a 30% pure stat gain.

Yes it is.

Like you get 30% crit more or 30% strength more.

Thats exactly what it is. If you had 1000 strength, you will have 1300 str. Thats a 30% gain.

It's 15% of whatever your original templated stat is. Which ends up being a very very small number when you add 15% of THAT.

See above. You are wrong.

You say 15% like it's a big difference in stats, when really it was always only a tiny amount of + whereas you got raw stat upgrades from gear in WoD. Which would indeed put you at 9% stronger.

.../asciipicardfacepalm.

No, you were 9.4% better stats. If, in full Honor gear, you had 1000 crit rating, in full Conquest gear, you would have had 1094 crit rating. 9.4% stat gain.

In legion, the only thing you really miss from a 980 player Vs a 800 player is HP and 2-3% of your secondaries.

When it was quite usually LESS than 2% of secondaries/main stats (because yes, it applies to all stats, not secondaries, in Legion).

You can check this for yourself if you have a low ilvl alt of the same class. My 790 DH alt has 31% crit in PvP, my 975 has 35%. Yet he's 17% stronger supposedly.

Because you apparently cant do math. 10% of 31 is 3.1, meaning 1% is .31. So lets do that math... .31 x17 = 5.27, which is off by about 1%, meaning Blizzard may have changed the floor from which stats are calculated without noting it (they did this twice during the beta). So.. yeah. You're pretty close to 17% stronger (actually more like 14% in this case).

Its been about nine months since we did the math last.

Secondly, you were saying this at the BEGINNING of legion when gear really did matter a lot less, as the mythic raiders were only at 880 while the average player was only at 850, yet you were still saying gear had more of an impact than WoD. Were you wrong then or?

Because Artifact. It took MONTHS to catch up in some cases (or you never could, realistically). Remember that each trait gives .75% Stam. That DOES apply in PvP, AFTER the template. And any stat gains the traits themselves give you. And as for the average player at 850, i managed to get 865 pretty easily and i dont raid, didn't do rated PvP, nothing. Just a few Mythic+ (not super high) random WQs and crafting.

So even at launch, the stat delta between a "new" PvPer and someone who'd been in from day 1 (which this system was supposed to be the "fix" for) was still well over 9%. And took MONTHS of catchup. (And dont forget that some classes, without certain traits, are completely useless, and the same goes for Honor talents. Some specs (like tanks) dont really need them at all, while some (Afflocks) need them all to be even remotely viable).

And I still stand by gearing is super easy in legion.

Uhh... great? I never said getting gear was hard. In fact, i myself said it was quite easy to get high numbers as i do not raid or do rated PvP and still have a H-Antorus iLevel on six toons. Stop building strawmen.

My other alt DH went from 770-900 in 2 hours just from world quests/random bgs/beginning of argus, and that's even with some PvP.

Right, which means that the optimal path to gear in PvP is....

PvE.

That's sub-optimal.

Thats why the ladder and casual play have collapsed almost 90% this xpac. No worthwhile rewards.

[Thunderbleem]

... no, really it is true.

We did this entire thing with math. Three times now. Twice before Legion kicked off (once during the Alpha and once during the Beta) and once again after.

The difference between trivially-obtained Honor gear (often mere hours of work and often without even having to actually PvP) and Conquest gear was 9.4%.

So, the WORST disparity you could have was 9.4%. It was often quite lower because getting that Honor gear would often also land you at least 2 Conquest pieces, sometimes 3.

In Legion, you gain 1% stats on your template per 10 iLevels above 800. I do not raid, do not do rated PvP, and barely log in at this point. All six of my toons are 948-952. People who actively raid are in the 980 range.

So, i'm 15% above someone who just dinged, who still has several days of work to do to unlock his Honor talents, and get his iLevel up.. because casual PvP doesn't reward shit.

So, as a complete casual who isn't even PvPing right now (because its so god-fucking-awful; and i used to do PvP as my primary end-game activity for the entire previous life of WoW)... im 15% above. Thats about 6% worse than it was possible to be in previous Xpacs.

Raiders are 18-20% above.

Gear doesn't matter less, it matters more.

The entire "gear doesn't matter as much" thing was a lie from minute one and it was proven both on their own forums and these forums with math.

And thats JUST the difference you get from iLevel - the flat % gain. Until the most recent patch made artifact catch-up trivial, people hitting the level cap had WEEKS of catching up to do at the very least. So for most of the xpac you were 9-10% behind in gear (and more later on), and trait-less, and PvP-talent-less..

The actual stat differential could be upwards of 30% with traits factored in. (Which, i will grant, is no longer the case, 14 months into the expansion).

It was worse than ever.

You're exaggerating a lot here. First, correct me if I'm wrong, but the base PvP template puts you at 900 ilvl. Even if it isn't, a fresh 110 gets to about 900 ilvl within 1-2 days of playing. You're assuming a fresh 110 is at 800 ilvl, which is laughable. Add in 1-2 LFR runs and your first 1-2 legendaries and you're sitting at about 920. Now the difference between you and and someone at 960 is 4%.

I've PvPed since before there were battlegrounds in the game. Trust me, it has never been easier to participate in PvP as a freshly leveled toon than it has been in Legion. You are also forgetting things like resilience and PvP power which are no longer in game which made it even more difficult for a new character to accomplish anything.

I will grant you the honor talent part is lame, but you aren't a free kill like you would have been in any other expansion. I recently leveled a character to 110, got a few AP tokens to unlock every trait, and went 20-4 up to 1700 in 2v2 without doing any gearing first.. That simply would not have been possible in any other expansion.

[Resentless]

Yes it is.



Thats exactly what it is. If you had 1000 strength, you will have 1300 str. Thats a 30% gain.



See above. You are wrong.



.../asciipicardfacepalm.

No, you were 9.4% better stats. If, in full Honor gear, you had 1000 crit rating, in full Conquest gear, you would have had 1094 crit rating. 9.4% stat gain.



When it was quite usually LESS than 2% of secondaries/main stats (because yes, it applies to all stats, not secondaries, in Legion).



Because you apparently cant do math. 10% of 31 is 3.1, meaning 1% is .31. So lets do that math... .31 x17 = 5.27, which is off by about 1%, meaning Blizzard may have changed the floor from which stats are calculated without noting it (they did this twice during the beta). So.. yeah. You're pretty close to 17% stronger (actually more like 14% in this case).

Its been about nine months since we did the math last.



Because Artifact. It took MONTHS to catch up in some cases (or you never could, realistically). Remember that each trait gives .75% Stam. That DOES apply in PvP, AFTER the template. And any stat gains the traits themselves give you. And as for the average player at 850, i managed to get 865 pretty easily and i dont raid, didn't do rated PvP, nothing. Just a few Mythic+ (not super high) random WQs and crafting.

So even at launch, the stat delta between a "new" PvPer and someone who'd been in from day 1 (which this system was supposed to be the "fix" for) was still well over 9%. And took MONTHS of catchup. (And dont forget that some classes, without certain traits, are completely useless, and the same goes for Honor talents. Some specs (like tanks) dont really need them at all, while some (Afflocks) need them all to be even remotely viable).



Uhh... great? I never said getting gear was hard. In fact, i myself said it was quite easy to get high numbers as i do not raid or do rated PvP and still have a H-Antorus iLevel on six toons. Stop building strawmen.



Right, which means that the optimal path to gear in PvP is....

PvE.

That's sub-optimal.

Thats why the ladder and casual play have collapsed almost 90% this xpac. No worthwhile rewards.

You say you had to do pve to get PvP geared as a bad thing, yet pride the old system on getting honor gear without having to do PvP. Which is it?

Casual ladder play collapsed because the game got horribly boring and slow with the prune in legion. I never noticed this at first because I was playing the new class, but in every forum post and every ex player I've asked who has quit, the reason was that PvP is boring in this expansion with no abilities. If people pvpd for gear, there would be 0 participation since BC when the gear was actually useful. The rewards are the same, and even easier to get now in legion than ever before. Only needing 2k to get elite set and 2.2 for tabard instead of 2.2 and 2.6 respectively. And thanks to no resilience/PvP power compensation on gear, it's actually possible to get the 975 helm with crit and mastery (my best stats) like my alt did at 2.4 rating. That's never been possible either.

[Deshi]

Yes templates are gone!

[Resentless]

You're exaggerating a lot here. First, correct me if I'm wrong, but the base PvP template puts you at 900 ilvl. Even if it isn't, a fresh 110 gets to about 900 ilvl within 1-2 days of playing. You're assuming a fresh 110 is at 800 ilvl, which is laughable. Add in 1-2 LFR runs and your first 1-2 legendaries and you're sitting at about 920. Now the difference between you and and someone at 960 is 4%.

I've PvPed since before there were battlegrounds in the game. Trust me, it has never been easier to participate in PvP as a freshly leveled toon than it has been in Legion. You are also forgetting things like resilience and PvP power which are no longer in game which made it even more difficult for a new character to accomplish anything.

I will grant you the honor talent part is lame, but you aren't a free kill like you would have been in any other expansion. I recently leveled a character to 110, got a few AP tokens to unlock every trait, and went 20-4 up to 1700 in 2v2 without doing any gearing first.. That simply would not have been possible in any other expansion.

And as always, as I said 9 months ago, this is the best bit. You are no longer a free kill when you ding 110 like every other xpac. That was 100% the goal with these changes. Skilled players can climb from minute one, perhaps not if you play affli lock, but not much else. And you only need one row unlocked for you to at least have access to something good, but that's basically the only issue.

[Karry]

Have they said anything on how gear will impact PVP performance ? Is it gonna be the same Legion system ?

[burner5]

Because you apparently cant do math. 10% of 31 is 3.1, meaning 1% is .31. So lets do that math... .31 x17 = 5.27, which is off by about 1%, meaning Blizzard may have changed the floor from which stats are calculated without noting it (they did this twice during the beta). So.. yeah. You're pretty close to 17% stronger (actually more like 14% in this case).

You are exactly right, but let me correct you a bit here, it is simpler: 31% crit is computed from X crit rating. They scale the value of X, not the percent crit that this value translates to. And the formula for the translation is non-linear. So, the 790 DH has X crit rating = 31% crit. And the 975 whoever has 1.35 * X crit rating and this equals not 1.35 * 31% crit, but less than that, because of the non-linearity of translation.

[lummiuster]

... no, really it is true.

We did this entire thing with math. Three times now. Twice before Legion kicked off (once during the Alpha and once during the Beta) and once again after.

The difference between trivially-obtained Honor gear (often mere hours of work and often without even having to actually PvP) and Conquest gear was 9.4%.

So, the WORST disparity you could have was 9.4%. It was often quite lower because getting that Honor gear would often also land you at least 2 Conquest pieces, sometimes 3.

In Legion, you gain 1% stats on your template per 10 iLevels above 800. I do not raid, do not do rated PvP, and barely log in at this point. All six of my toons are 948-952. People who actively raid are in the 980 range.

So, i'm 15% above someone who just dinged, who still has several days of work to do to unlock his Honor talents, and get his iLevel up.. because casual PvP doesn't reward shit.

So, as a complete casual who isn't even PvPing right now (because its so god-fucking-awful; and i used to do PvP as my primary end-game activity for the entire previous life of WoW)... im 15% above. Thats about 6% worse than it was possible to be in previous Xpacs.

Raiders are 18-20% above.

Gear doesn't matter less, it matters more.

The entire "gear doesn't matter as much" thing was a lie from minute one and it was proven both on their own forums and these forums with math.

And thats JUST the difference you get from iLevel - the flat % gain. Until the most recent patch made artifact catch-up trivial, people hitting the level cap had WEEKS of catching up to do at the very least. So for most of the xpac you were 9-10% behind in gear (and more later on), and trait-less, and PvP-talent-less..

The actual stat differential could be upwards of 30% with traits factored in. (Which, i will grant, is no longer the case, 14 months into the expansion).

It was worse than ever.

Bro you are so extremely wrong. I did the math myself with the same class. The difference between my ele shaman il974 and il900 is only 1% extra mastery, crit, vers and haste. And a bit more health. The difference is so little, I even often take of my gear (chest and pants) in BGs to look like a naked orc and I don't feel the difference in my crit numbers at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes templates are gone!

You sure or is it just a guess?

[Kralljin]

Bro you are so extremely wrong. I did the math myself with the same class. The difference between my ele shaman il974 and il900 is only 1% extra mastery, crit, vers and haste. And a bit more health. The difference is so little, I even often take of my gear (chest and pants) in BGs to look like a naked orc and I don't feel the difference in my crit numbers at all.

I think those numbers were taken early on in the expansion when Artifact power was a real issue.
As artifact traits also fully applied to PvP, having a level 30 or level 15 artifact obviously made a massive difference.

Even with like 980+ in my max ilvl gear i get only like ~18% bonus on my template, i doubt that any full mythic / pvp geared person was only "18% better" compared to a freshly dinged character in any previous expansion.
And AP is really not an excuse anymore.

[Nerovar]

I still wish they'd just go back to how gearing was in previous expansions instead of doubling down on the RNG bullshit.

[Deshi]

- - - Updated - - -



You sure or is it just a guess?[/QUOTE]

Im very sure!

[twistedmynd]

For visibility's sake, gear in pvp will come from 3 places:

• You may randomly get one after a match -- ilevel is determined by the current rating
• You're able to fill up a Conquest Bar each week -- ilevel is equal to raid tiers and moves up after completing a set -- you can earn previous week's gear at an accelerated rate.
• If you have filled up your conquest bar, you will unlock a weekly chest -- contains better than average ilevel and more often better gear slots (weapons) -- functions like current mythic dungeon weekly chest -- uses the highest rating obtained that also must have winning matches.

Things that haven't been explicitly mentioned that I still would like to be clear:

• Are we able to melt gear down and purchase specific gear tokens like the legion obliterum forge system?
• Can we skips steps to higher conquest bar rewards by playing at higher ratings? Or are high rated players going to be earning lfr gear > normal mode > heroic like everyone else?
• Are trinkets active in pvp yet?
• How does the new gear work with stat templates? As mentioned, there is some change planned to templates but we still haven't been notified as to what that change will be.

[Baalbo]

i hope its good