Raiding and M+ are NOT the same content. They need to stop treating it as such.

[yjmark]

grade A strawman there

ofc not

but FOR RAIDING
the best reward should be RAIDING

for mythic+ the best reward should be mythic+

for pvp the best reward should be pvp

etc

What is a Mythic+ reward vs a Raiding reward? Just curious.

[Deleted]

I only ever did one key a week which took me 20minutes and I got mostly shit item would you complain about proffession being forces on you so you dont miss out on something? Same logic would go for not doing hc, normal and lfr just because of TF. You have to do stuff in a mmo. Not doing stuff = missing out on some scale. Mount collectors can really complain about being forced to kill mythic argus for mount

[durrtygoodz]

You guys would think that but in my experience people logon to raid and logoff, some don't even leave the instance they just logoff inside lol These aren't large scale 500+ member guilds though these are "we don't recruit for the bench" sized guilds.

So nobody in your guild does the weekly m+ and yet you feel forced?

[HuxNeva]

This poor old horse has been beaten to death, but I'll wade into the territory to offer the rationale anew for fresh eyes. You see, you're there for your team. You do your best, you execute your rotation as perfectly as possible every attempt (while observing mechanics) so that you can all slam your fist into the table in exuberance. But, even if you perform perfectly, even if you execute a near-perfect rotation, more than can be asked for over hundreds of attempts, you might still have had enough to push that boss over the last bit instead of wiping on Mythic KJ at 11 million HP, a fraction of a percent of health left, if you had done your weekly Mythic Plus. Your pyroblasts would have hit hard enough to push you into victory.

A lot of good progression raiding guilds aren't forcing their raiders to do Mythic Plus weeklies, they're asking their raiders to do it for the team. My guild got Mythic KJ two days before the release of the next content patch, with only a few people left alive at the end. We barely got Cutting Edge. Granted we had attendance issues in the last month, but if we were all skipping weekly Mythic Plus, we probably wouldn't have had the extra oomph we needed for it. It is to this day the proudest accomplishment I've ever had in WoW, even above Heroic Ragnaros.

And it wouldn't have been possible if we all weren't dutifully accomplishing our weekly Mythic Plus.

It's about the team, it's about the drive, it's not about demands or requirements. But you know what a lot of us would prefer? Just to raid.

If you were progressing Mythic for months, I doubt there were a lot of M+ gear items worn by your raid team. Getting high TF from M+ HC raid ilvl on average required hundreds and hundreds of runs, while raids just kept showering mythic gear on you each week for little effort.

[Regalbeast]

Heroic raiding isn't hard. It's about on the same level as M+ 10 which is obviously why Blizzard is treating it as such.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I don't really mind M+. I've always seen it as a consolation prize: you do your weekly run, and at the end of the week, you have a chance to get an upgrade (and even then, not always, since you can find a slot you have already filled, a side grade, or a downgrade).
I think the model is fine, the only flaw is when it can become a self-sufficient gearing option. This is what happened in Antorus; a possible upgrade every week means you are going to get geared no matter what. For a middle or starting tier, though, the model works.
I've never even tried Antorus Mythic, and my ilvl is 976, with a 1002 weapon, all through m+ and warforging (but mostly m+).

[shaunika123]

What is a Mythic+ reward vs a Raiding reward? Just curious.

well obviously that is why the problem exists because both are just "gear"

but there should be a way to differentiate, like maybe azerite traits from m+ would be only really good in m+ and vica versa in raids.

or whatever, I'M not the one getting paid millions of dollars to design the game, but this isnt good atm.

[HuxNeva]

I'd love to have wod's gearing path back

if you were a raider, you raided and nothing else, that's how it should be

WoD, the almost universally reviled xpac that in each poll scores rock bottom in popularity. But hey, what does a raidlogger care that it had 0 game outside raids, right?

[Dacien]

If you were progressing Mythic for months, I doubt there were a lot of M+ gear items worn by your raid team. Getting high TF from M+ HC raid ilvl on average required hundreds and hundreds of runs, while raids just kept showering mythic gear on you each week for little effort.

There were a few, including relics and rings. And we extended after Avatar a month and a half prior, so that was a month and a half without loot.

Still in the 350ish attempt range though, I must add! Might have been less actually.

[shaunika123]

WoD, the almost universally reviled xpac that in each poll scores rock bottom in popularity. But hey, what does a raidlogger care that it had 0 game outside raids, right?

didnt say I want wod back did I
I want the gearing path to raids back from wod.

which was: raid more to get more gear from raids.

I have no problem with alternate gearing paths
but they should not be objectively better than raids, for raid gear

just because it was bad for the majority, doesnt mean it was bad for raiders.

[Checkt]

grade A strawman there

ofc not

but FOR RAIDING
the best reward should be RAIDING

for mythic+ the best reward should be mythic+

for pvp the best reward should be pvp

etc

So, the game would only function having three separate reward tiers that only function in their respective environments? I think we're starting to see why you don't have a successful game you've designed because you're quite obviously shit at planning.

Your elitist nonsense aside, if M+'s one piece of quality gear per week is what's moving you forward in progression or lack there of is what's hindering you, you're likely not that great of a player to begin with.

[shaunika123]

So, the game would only function having three separate reward tiers that only function in their respective environments? I think we're starting to see why you don't have a successful game you've designed because you're quite obviously shit at planning.

Your elitist nonsense aside, if M+'s one piece of quality gear per week is what's moving you forward in progression or lack there of is what's hindering you, you're likely not that great of a player to begin with.

who TF is talking about the 1/ week reward?

you can infinitely grind them

and you can get Bis gear for any slot (barring trinkets probably) from m+ since they'Ll have every stat combo

I already said multiple times I Like the 1/week system

waht I dont like is having to spend more time grinding M+ than actual raids for the best possible reward.

it's literally the exact same problem pvp had when pve gear was the best gear for pvp for a long time, and people rightfully so cried about it

why is it shocking we have a problem with it now?

[Checkt]

who TF is talking about the 1/ week reward?

you can infinitely grind them

and you can get Bis gear for any slot (barring trinkets probably) from m+ since they'Ll have every stat combo

I already said multiple times I Like the 1/week system

waht I dont like is having to spend more time grinding M+ than actual raids for the best possible reward.

it's literally the exact same problem pvp had when pve gear was the best gear for pvp for a long time, and people rightfully so cried about it

why is it shocking we have a problem with it now?

If you think a cache with random rewards and a random key drop are an effective way to farm BIS items i'm starting to see why you're a bad player.

[DustWolf]

I wonder when people will stop using this argument.

if you are a mythic raider you are absolutely forced to do mythic+ there is no way around it.

you dont "feel" forced, you ARE forced.

To be honest, this doesn't only apply to mythic raiders and the creme de la creme of players. I had mixed amounts of time to play Legion, which means that at some points of the game, I could very well do high M+s and raiding -- I wasn't falling behind in terms of gear nor AP.
But at some point, I had to cut my playtime a bit, meaning I had less time to do M+s, which gradually affected my raiding performance up to when I just couldn't keep up with others. Was I in cutting edge progression? No, I think we barely got 5 or so Mythic bosses down in the end, but in a semi-progress oriented guild, it just feels bad to fall behind. People maybe won't notice, maybe you'll just become the joke (not in a derogatory manner, but, you know, the friendly guild type of joke) of the guild etc. Nobody really minded people that "underperformed" due to not having the same il/AP, providing they did the encounter correctly. It just felt bad, really really bad, and I'm not the only one with such a mindset. I remember in WoD I could easily just turn up to do raiding and I virtually never fell behind in terms of numbers.

That's the issue with "being forced". I honestly don't believe that "this is just for the 0.0001% cutting edge Mythic players" is a valid counterargument. It's how players feel -- and I doubt anyone enjoys seeing themselves fall behind performancewise.

[Cyranis]

To be honest, this doesn't only apply to mythic raiders and the creme de la creme of players. I had mixed amounts of time to play Legion, which means that at some points of the game, I could very well do high M+s and raiding -- I wasn't falling behind in terms of gear nor AP.
But at some point, I had to cut my playtime a bit, meaning I had less time to do M+s, which gradually affected my raiding performance up to when I just couldn't keep up with others. Was I in cutting edge progression? No, I think we barely got 5 or so Mythic bosses down in the end, but in a semi-progress oriented guild, it just feels bad to fall behind. People maybe won't notice, maybe you'll just become the joke (not in a derogatory manner, but, you know, the friendly guild type of joke) of the guild etc. Nobody really minded people that "underperformed" due to not having the same il/AP, providing they did the encounter correctly. It just felt bad, really really bad, and I'm not the only one with such a mindset. I remember in WoD I could easily just turn up to do raiding and I virtually never fell behind in terms of numbers.

That's the issue with "being forced". I honestly don't believe that "this is just for the 0.0001% cutting edge Mythic players" is a valid counterargument. It's how players feel -- and I doubt anyone enjoys seeing themselves fall behind performancewise.

So your big problem is that you want to raidlog. But, you'll fall behind with this system because your peers wont do that. They will grind mythic+ and pvp. So your solution is to screw everyone that plays the game other than you, to suit your needs. How amazingly selfish. The problem is you. You don't have or don't want to spend the time. Change your time commitments or change your expectations.

[DustWolf]

So your big problem is that you want to raidlog. But, you'll fall behind with this system because your peers wont do that. They will grind mythic+ and pvp. So your solution is to screw everyone that plays the game other than you, to suit your needs. How amazingly selfish. The problem is you. You don't have or don't want to spend the time. Change your time commitments or change your expectations.

I have no clues how you deducted that from my post, but ok.
I don't care about raidlogs, most top ranks are cheese any way. I care about helping out the team, I don't want to feel carried just because I couldn't spend that much time farming -- I'd say that's the exact opposite of being selfish, but you do you.

And I offered no solution. I just offered a commentary with my personal experience.

[Marrilaife]

As some of you have mentioned, you technically don’t have to worry about the timer when going for the +15 reward, so in a sense you could consider it to be a “relaxing progression-based experience”, but this actually poses a completely different problem. Taking your time in content that’s designed to be completed in upwards to 20-30 minutes means potentially spending up to an hour or more in a single dungeon. To make it worse, you are locked into it once you start, in the event someone has to leave, you can’t fill their spot. This is an absurdly long period of time to dedicate yourself to.

How is it absurd? Most raiding guilds have 3-4 hour long raids usually with just 1 break in the middle. If you are doing a dungeon with friends / guild and you're clear from the start you aren't going for the timer, but for the completion, and it really takes you 1h+ I think you can just ask them for a couple of minutes to take a piss or answer the door. Yes, if you have impatient pugs it's another story, and they're most likely to drop group if it doesn't go "smooth enough" for them. But if we're comparing raiding with guild and m+ with guild ninja quitters and bailers shouldn't be that big of a deal. Dcs happen but in the same manner if a crucial raid member dcs that can screw the raiding evening too, unless you raid really low progression and everyone is interchangeable.

[Cyranis]

I have no clues how you deducted that from my post, but ok.
I don't care about raidlogs, most top ranks are cheese any way. I care about helping out the team, I don't want to feel carried just because I couldn't spend that much time farming -- I'd say that's the exact opposite of being selfish, but you do you.

And I offered no solution. I just offered a commentary with my personal experience.

FYI - raidlogging is loggin in for the raid, and then logging off right away. Spending the minimum amount of time.

[DustWolf]

FYI - raidlogging is loggin in for the raid, and then logging off right away. Spending the minimum amount of time.

Sorry, misunderstood that for logs.
Emissary quests felt like a nice way to earn some extra power, had no issues doing that (save for the late introduction of chest mounts...), so it's not like I just showed up and went back offline (although I admit the wording may have made it sound like that).

[shyguybman]

The one thing I don't get is when the OP says 20-30 min of uninterrupted game play. Is it that hard to be able to play that long without interruption?

My guild does basically the first few bosses in mythic each tier and even we made everyone do a 15 each week. I wish people did more than 1 so they got better at their class.