You cannot change gear in a M+ dungeon anymore.

[Qck]

I think the change is fine.

It's a bit silly to see people gear swap on a pull-by-pull basis, especially with tank trinkets on DPS. Now you just choose your best overall set for the dungeon, just like with talents.

People whining about losing depth or whatever are honestly just clutching at straws. What depth? You already know ahead of time what you're going to wear depending on the pull/boss so it's not like you're some sort of genius because you have 10 different sets saved on Opie or whatever. In actual fact, making do with what you have equipped on pulls that are less favourable probably requires more thought than pressing a bind to select a set.

If you really enjoy having 10 different sets in your bags then I guess you're losing out, but I honestly feel like this has been turned into a way bigger issue than it should be. And it's not gong to change anything anyway - you already don't take a Shaman or whatever to high end M+ because their survivability sucks, that should be fixed through helping the class overall, not wearing a fucking tank trinket as an Elemental Shaman.

[klaps_05]

You thought class stacking was bad this MDI? Just wait when the new "monk" class comes out that is completely op on ST/AOE/utility. Why would you EVER get any other class than that one for your DPS? No amount of buffs or other utility will offset a class that can destroy both ST and AOE like a monk now.

[Raelbo]

This just removed depth from the high-end.

I disagree. It removed hassle, but it added depth.

It's significantly easier to choose a set of gear and talents optimised for each specific scenario and then quickly swap between them than it is to find one set of gear and talents that needs to strike the best balance across multiple scenarios

[HuxNeva]

I think the change is fine.

It's a bit silly to see people gear swap on a pull-by-pull basis, especially with tank trinkets on DPS. Now you just choose your best overall set for the dungeon, just like with talents.

People whining about losing depth or whatever are honestly just clutching at straws. What depth? You already know ahead of time what you're going to wear depending on the pull/boss so it's not like you're some sort of genius because you have 10 different sets saved on Opie or whatever. In actual fact, making do with what you have equipped on pulls that are less favourable probably requires more thought than pressing a bind to select a set.

If you really enjoy having 10 different sets in your bags then I guess you're losing out, but I honestly feel like this has been turned into a way bigger issue than it should be. And it's not gong to change anything anyway - you already don't take a Shaman or whatever to high end M+ because their survivability sucks, that should be fixed through helping the class overall, not wearing a fucking tank trinket as an Elemental Shaman.

It's not silly at all, depth and breadth goes to the core of what a PvE MMO is and why it is so different from MOBA's or god forbid twitchy FPS's.

[Kelathos]

As someone who is just there for the M+ loot, I never swapped gear anyway. Although that'll make it a disaster if someone forgets to swap gear after switching specs.

[durrtygoodz]

In Legion raids? No. But I'm a former top ~100 progression raider. I've plenty of experience in this sort of min/max mechanic.

"lol get on my level scrub" is not really a counter argument.

That isn't what I said though is it If you're not doing the high end content you don't have enough of an insight to have good feedback. The top end players I know (MDI players) have had negative feedback about it.

[Gramlen]

That isn't what I said though is it

It is, actually.

[Leih]

That isn't what I said though is it If you're not doing the high end content you don't have enough of an insight to have good feedback. The top end players I know (MDI players) have had negative feedback about it.

I don't need to be an MDI player to have an opinion on what's a fun mechanic in the game.

This is exactly like using "LOL scrub you don't have XXXX arena rating your opinion is invalid" in a PVP scenario.

[durrtygoodz]

I don't need to be an MDI player to have an opinion on what's a fun mechanic in the game.

This is exactly like using "LOL scrub you don't have XXXX arena rating your opinion is invalid" in a PVP scenario.

But if you don't push high keys then gear swapping doesn't matter to you at all. Even if you did a 20 key, you don't need to gear swap. Even if you were doing +20 keys, which you're not, gear swapping isn't even needed at that level.

And that's twice now that you've accused me of using a word to insult you when I haven't. Please stop that.

[Hoeth]

I don't need to be an MDI player to have an opinion on what's a fun mechanic in the game.

This is exactly like using "LOL scrub you don't have XXXX arena rating your opinion is invalid" in a PVP scenario.

Whats fun for some is pushing keys as high as possible. With current tuning some specs CANNOT survive some boss encounters baring exceptional RNG (as in never being targeted by a mechanic) WITHOUT defensive legendaries/trinkets/avoidance gear. Those items effectively allow some specs/classes to actually engage in content that would not be possible without them. Remove the option to use that stuff and those specs simply won't be invited to groups.

Even if Blizzard changes their approach to M+ and removes the unavoidable one-shot mechanics that are so prevalent now and moves to more of an attrition based system with avoidable damage the situation won't change. Instead of nearly requiring specs with immunities or very strong defensive CDs to survive, high keys will require specs with strong self-healing or baseline damage mitigation, or high mobility to avoid damage. It will still be a case of some specs have the tools and others don't. Particular gear combinations can help neutralize that gap somewhat and without that option some specs will just be SOL. Or do you really expect Blizzard to be able to balance specs so evenly that they all have relatively equal efficacy in M+? If you do, I have some remarkable swamp land you might be interested in.

The funny thing is that I haven't seen a single player who is interested in pushing M+ scores support this change. Its only players like yourself who only engage in lower difficulty content where such optimization isn't required. A fury warrior shouldn't have any trouble getting into a +15 HoV regardless of whether he/she has Prydaz and Archimonde Will and 20% avoidance gear, but he has approximately 0% chance of getting into a 23 tyrannical HoV without that stuff.

[Deleted]

Whats fun for some is pushing keys as high as possible. With current tuning some specs CANNOT survive some boss encounters baring exceptional RNG (as in never being targeted by a mechanic) WITHOUT defensive legendaries/trinkets/avoidance gear. Those items effectively allow some specs/classes to actually engage in content that would not be possible without them. Remove the option to use that stuff and those specs simply won't be invited to groups.

Even if Blizzard changes their approach to M+ and removes the unavoidable one-shot mechanics that are so prevalent now and moves to more of an attrition based system with avoidable damage the situation won't change. Instead of nearly requiring specs with immunities or very strong defensive CDs to survive, high keys will require specs with strong self-healing or baseline damage mitigation, or high mobility to avoid damage. It will still be a case of some specs have the tools and others don't. Particular gear combinations can help neutralize that gap somewhat and without that option some specs will just be SOL. Or do you really expect Blizzard to be able to balance specs so evenly that they all have relatively equal efficacy in M+? If you do, I have some remarkable swamp land you might be interested in.

The funny thing is that I haven't seen a single player who is interested in pushing M+ scores support this change. Its only players like yourself who only engage in lower difficulty content where such optimization isn't required. A fury warrior shouldn't have any trouble getting into a +15 HoV regardless of whether he/she has Prydaz and Archimonde Will and 20% avoidance gear, but he has approximately 0% chance of getting into a 23 tyrannical HoV without that stuff.

I regularily ran 22-23 keys and I support the change because it means that the gear you choose to bring actually matters. Whether your gear has speed, avoidance or defensive azerite armour traits it's something you chose to bring rather than something you equip for a specific encounter (or worst of all, equipping a "speed set" between packs and then re-equipping your damage gear afterwards).

Having to come up with a well rounded set that will work well in all scenarios across the dungeon is IMO far more interesting than being able to bring out the strongest set for any given situation on the fly. Gear will still be able to help neutralize the weaknesses that your class/spec has, but you will actually have to weigh the various options available before you rather than being able to utilize all of them.

Switching sets was really tedious and quite boring. After it became a "thing" Blizzard had to make the decision to either balance the content around people always optimizing their gear for every given encounter, or prevent players from doing it altogether. Personally I think it makes far more sense that you prepare and commit to the gear you bring the same way to commit to your spec or talents.

[Leih]

But if you don't push high keys then gear swapping doesn't matter to you at all. Even if you did a 20 key, you don't need to gear swap. Even if you were doing +20 keys, which you're not, gear swapping isn't even needed at that level.

And that's twice now that you've accused me of using a word to insult you when I haven't. Please stop that.

It's called paraphrasing. I didn't say you insulted me, I said that what you're saying is the equivalent of insulting me

Regardless, the point is I don't have to be actively participating in the same content right now to have an opinion on it. I have a lot of experience with high-end content and I've experienced many many similar sort of mechanics in the past, enough to say that this is just yet another stupid meta-game mechanic which the game shouldn't be tuned around.

Besides, whether it's necessary at lower levels of content or not, people copy the higher end players. If having multiple gear sets makes it easier for so-called pro people to complete m20+ content, then less skilled players will find multiple gear sets makes it easier to complete m15+ content which is more in line with their skill and ilvl. It may not be necessary to use this trick to complete lower m+ levels... but if it makes it easier to do so, people are going to do it. It affects everyone because everyone can do it, even if you think they shouldn't need to.

- - - Updated - - -

Switching sets was really tedious and quite boring. After it became a "thing" Blizzard had to make the decision to either balance the content around people always optimizing their gear for every given encounter, or prevent players from doing it altogether. Personally I think it makes far more sense that you prepare and commit to the gear you bring the same way to commit to your spec or talents.

Exactly this. Well said.

[stevan021]

People who argue in favor of changes like this (much like the enforcement of personal loot across the board) are the people who just aren't good enough to actually do that kind of content, so being jealous, they want to screw people who are capable of it in any and every way possible, even if it's a fantastically stupid change.

Or maybe I just don't give a shit about doing random things like changing gear and wanna play the game instead. I did almost every dungeon on +23 and some on +24 and I see zero skill in pressing a keybind to change gear, it's just a boring thing you have to do like cleaning your house. I don't want things like that in a game that is supposed to be fun especially since they can just tune the dungeon around people not swapping gear and make the choice of what gear you pick before a dungeon actually a meaningful one.

EDIT: Think about it, if you had to sit on a huge sex toy while playing would the dungeon be harder? Yes. Would it be a more enjoyable experience? Only for a select few

[HawtFist]

EDIT: Think about it, if you had to sit on a huge sex toy while playing would the dungeon be harder? Yes. Would it be a more enjoyable experience? Only for a select few

I haven't gotten into the content y'all are discussing, so I don't have any substantive arguments for my opinion. Therefore I won't share it.

I do want to say, however, that your analogy was amazing and made your point really clear while making me LOL

[Very Tired]

I mostly gear swapped for a run speed set and back. But they are already killing that off without our legendaries so idc much anymore.

[Saverem]

I was too lazy to change my gear anyway, now I have an excuse to continue being lazy. Great change for me.

[zlygork]

Can't say I've ever tried to change gear in a mythic to even be able to tell whether the ability was taken from me or not. I assume if you REALLY want to, you can still leave the dungeon and re-enter like you can now to respec. Pretty cool with that.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

"Fuck, my shield broke!

Don't call wipe yet! I had this green one I looted from the trash!"

It was practically a core game mechanic for tanks on Anub'arak Heroic in Trial of the Crusader

[Baroclinic]

Wait, people did that? Wow.

I did not know that.

I used to have a gear set for AoE and one for single boss DPS. Sometimes I used to try a random setup for giggles and switch back if my group sucked...

Guess not anymore.

[Shakou]

Y'all have to understand that while Azerite gear will be varied because you can get many different pieces from dungeons, you can only get the highest item level versions of the dungeon pieces from your m+ cache.

You also have to understand that while there's a variety of traits on that gear, there is only ONE tier with spec specific traits to choose from and only one choice per spec at that.

You also have to realize that most of the spec specific traits depend highly on your talent build to be optimal and that in most cases they are weaker than the generic option that is something applicable for any class in any kind of encounter.

AND you also gotta realize that this ain't fkn Legion and shit's gun be different, you can customize but you don't need to farm all the options and there aren't that many options anyways. For the most part only mythic raiders will have the highest item level Azerite Gear, and highest I lvl will almost always beat lower I lvl gear especially on those slots, the traits scale with the I lvl of the piece etc.

What happened in Legion is Blizzard never intended people to get max artifact traits like they did at the start of the xpac, and they never expected players to get all Legendary items for their spec, let alone class. But they did so Blizzard rebalanced the game around that. It's bizarre that people were expecting BFA to have even more options cuz of the Azerite system cuz that was never going to be the case or touted as a thing the dev team was even planning. In fact the language the devs used from 2017 Blizzcon was that this change to gear was about locking those gear slots down, so you could make more meaningful choices in the other gear slots (which can titanforge etc).

Even if this does prevent you from being able to push higher what does it matter? Being on the top of the leaderboards is what matters not the number on the key.

What this effectively does is further legitimize M+ as an e sport, and I like that. Because I would like M+ to give us the rewards challenge modes used to on top of good loot we can equip. This is a stepping stone toward that direction so I hope they keep pushing in that direction and eventually give us seasonal mounts, xmogs and titles from m+ at some point.