If you've read Before the Storm...what did you think? (Spoilers obviously)

[Seylene]

they would many asses to pull, it would not work


except it was not the entire horde, it was not even the entire orcs

btw they retake exactly because o the asspulls, beyond that is ask too much

It was the majority of the Kalimdor horde and stressed to the point where they unleashed the beasts of Northrend. I am not saying it is not unbelievable but so is the forsaken waltz nonsense we are seeing pulled off right now. So I was responding to what must happen -If- there is to be peace. I could think of a thousand ways to write it how it works and a thousand reasons why it wouldn't but for the prospect of peace that is really the only option. No race is as tied to a land as the Night elves are to Ashenvale and they are the ones who have to retake it. Not have it given back.

[Syegfryed]

It was the majority of the Kalimdor horde and stressed to the point where they unleashed the beasts of Northrend.

it was an army who were outumbered by the worgens, there is no way pshycally and logical to be the entire army of the horde there

No race is as tied to a land as the Night elves are to Ashenvale and they are the ones who have to retake it. Not have it given back.

and they made so mistaken and bad decisions that they will not "retake" like they way you previous described

[Seylene]

it was an army who were outumbered by the worgens, there is no way pshycally and logical to be the entire army of the horde there




and they made so mistaken and bad decisions that they will not "retake" like they way you previous described

Ill admit its been a while since I read wolfheart but I don't remember the worgen out numbering. Varian and the worgen showed up at the end to bring down the magnataur, which saved Tyrande and Shandris from having to burn down the forest to deny it to the Horde.

They made bad decisions based on glaringly idiotic development. If you are okay with "There is an army massing at our doorstep so lets send ours across the world." Yes I am aware of word of god but this is so idiotic that there can be no written peace that will be believed. It is a narrative error.

[AcidicSyn]

I did the same thing, wondering if we will see them in game Mabye.

I will be incredibly upset if they couldn't hop far enough away in time. I just kept thinking about the conversation when Saffy mentions how they don't have a mage; and they end up putting it off; maybe later. Would be pretty cool if she had somehow contacted a mage to set up some joint time in the lab at some point. Then said mage was headed out that way, saw them attempting to crawl away, and opened a portal below them just before the explosion. (Millhouse or maybe Meryl?) Grizz mentioned Gazlowe was respected; he could hide them in Ratchet.

One can hope.

[Super Dickmann]

If Sylvanas isn't slated for a sacrifice/redemption type of arc (which is my current thinking) I think she'll retire herself from the role of Warchief at the close of BfA - she never wanted the position in either case, preferring her role to be in the shadows where she can move without the eyes of the entire Horde upon her. Saurfang could take up the helm of Warchief, or its possible that the role is abolished and the Horde is ruled by its racial leaders as a council-type of set-up, that's difficult to say.

As for Calia, I don't really know what they plan to do with her - I think she's a more a plot hook flung into the future, either when the Light vs. Void conflict really begins to ramp up or perhaps a WotLK redux type expansion. I don't think Calia is going to be pertinent to BfA as it were, she'll remain a character on the periphery and out of focus until a later stage is set for her (or she might be forgotten and put in the cooler for a long, long time).

I don't think they'll go for a council set up because the Warchief is integral to the Horde. I imagine given the prominence given to him that if Sylvanas does end up losing the job, we'll be back to Thrall. That said, I'm fairly certain her departure, if it does come to it, will be positive as she's the face of the Horde for this expansion and it's been heavily implied she's relevant for the battle against the void. As for Calia, I stand by her not being relevant in BFA.

[Zulkhan]

Thats kind of the point. There can be no peace because the horde WILL attack again. So they have to be beaten then sue for peace because while the horde have proven they cant be trusted to keep peace the Alliance is always stupid enough to grant it no matter what.

Except the fact where the Alliance is not blameless in the slightest, considered all the several occasions were they too instigated the conflict and spinned the wheel of hatred again.

[Syegfryed]

Ill admit its been a while since I read wolfheart but I don't remember the worgen out numbering. Varian and the worgen showed up at the end to bring down the magnataur, which saved Tyrande and Shandris from having to burn down the forest to deny it to the Horde.

thats the whole point, if the entire horde was there a bunch of worgens would not push then back, is easy math

[

They made bad decisions based on glaringly idiotic development.

not rly, they made bad decision based about their lore, xenophobic, arrogant and egocentric elves, start killing the orcs in azshara because muh sacred leafs

thats why they needed to beg for alliance help and end up change their costumes to fit the pool, so, even if they retake it, it will not me a crusade or something extraordinary to put the horde underground

it will not be because because both sides don't want peace, regardless of their leaders, soon or later the elves would attack the orcs all over again, and orcs will strike back, is a endless circle

[Powerogue]

I suspected Sylvanas would kill the forsaken that tried to follow Calia, but I did not expect her to even shoot the ones running back to her.

Yeah, Calia was, and still is, a threat to her hold over Lordaeron who openly called for defection of her people. It still doesn't excuse that. Sylvanas has only further endangered her position once the surviving members of the council learn of this betrayal.

On another note, it was great seeing more of the horde and alliance leaders interacting and signs that Anduin is not nearly as naive as he was in MOP (and this has clearly hardened him further in that regard).

People jeer "Sylvanas is going to be a raid boss dangit not again!" and that is possible, but it's important to note she's far less brutish and reckless than Garrosh. He directly pushed away entire races like "screw you we don't need you anyway!" while Sylvanas is using underhanded manipulation to hold their allegiance, just not their trust.

Grizzle Gearslip says: Yeah, we'll see who's got Garrosh's back when it counts.
Malkorok says: What was that, goblin?
Grizzle Gearslip says: Oh yeah, hey no nothing your, uh, your hugeness. Uh, for the Horde, and all that... Bye!

And I'm clinging to hope we see Grizzik and Saphy in BFA.

[Directionalk9]

signs that Anduin is not nearly as naive as he was in MOP (and this has clearly hardened him further in that regard).

Ohh man we ended this book with wildly different perceptions on Anduin. To me he came off naive to the point Genn should've formed a coup. I couldn't stand Anduin after this book. Prior I didn't mind him, but now....

[Powerogue]

TLDR: Calia has a daughter who is about Anduin's age and I guarantee you this daughter is the answer to the 'who is Anduin going to marry?' question. Sorry Wrathion fans.

I chuckled at the number of times the book pointed out his and Calia's age difference, like "no, bad shippers, it's not happening!"

Ohh man we ended this book with wildly different perceptions on Anduin. To me he came off naive to the point Genn should've formed a coup. I couldn't stand Anduin after this book. Prior I didn't mind him, but now....

He made a very complicated system for the gathering of only a few dozen people, ensuring neither faction really needed to trust each other at all to go through with it. Even by the end he's convinced that Sylvanas is not going to come around to peace (rightly so, she said as much).

There is a fine line between optimism and naivety, but Anduin is on it trying his best to pursue peace without making decisions that threaten the Alliance.

I think to my caution when I give money to homeless people. I know in certain places such people can be desperate enough to pickpocket or even mug people, so I take precautions like locking my car and leaving my actual wallet in it. It's possible to be kind while still being cautious. To reach out, knowing you might be bitten, so you put on gloves.

This is a far cry from the Anduin who constantly ran off on his own to talk with the horde, and got his ass captured several times and every bone in his body shattered after speaking to an orc who was 3x his size like he had already won.

[Seylene]

thats the whole point, if the entire horde was there a bunch of worgens would not push then back, is easy math

[

not rly, they made bad decision based about their lore, xenophobic, arrogant and egocentric elves, start killing the orcs in azshara because muh sacred leafs

thats why they needed to beg for alliance help and end up change their costumes to fit the pool, so, even if they retake it, it will not me a crusade or something extraordinary to put the horde underground

it will not be because because both sides don't want peace, regardless of their leaders, soon or later the elves would attack the orcs all over again, and orcs will strike back, is a endless circle

A bunch of worgen didn't push them back though. That was the Silverwing and then Shandris, Tyrande and a ship of relief troops pushed them back. Math is still there horde forces just lost. That's why they released the Magnataur the Worgen only killed the magnataur. (As far as I remember I havent read Wolfheart in foreves like 86% sure on this.)

lol they made a mad decision based on the developers caveat. They -were- xenophoic until the end of WC3 where they made peace among the Horde under Thrall and humans under Jaina. They never begged. I am assuming you don't like the race and thats fine im not asking you too but let's at least be real here. Azshara was nothing about leaves but the horde once again invading their lands. (sense a theme here?)

That is the point right there the elves never once struck first the orcs have always been the aggressors even since when Grom invaded Ashenvale bursting through warning signs that everyone on the continent understood and respected for over 10k years. So there can ONLY be peace when the horde are defeated to a point where they can NOT invade again because that is the trigger to every incident between the two.

And I stand by my initial claim if a Sentinel lodge can stop and hold a massive horde assault and then turn it back to victory with the arrival of Tyrande then the entirety of the Darnassian army combined with the full Sentinel army coming up from Feralas can easily end the Ashenvale conflict to my standards. If you disagree that's fine this was all based on the question of what needs to happen for peace and that is my opinion and with the examples as to how I came to it.

- - - Updated - - -

Except the fact where the Alliance is not blameless in the slightest, considered all the several occasions were they too instigated the conflict and spinned the wheel of hatred again.

Oh I completely agree the Alliance are no angels but when it comes to the Ashenvale conflict (the only thing I am addressing) They are in this case. Personally the Alliance as a whole and the horde along with them can sod off into oblivion.

[Powerogue]

Azerite is definitely a influencer, I don't want to say corruption but it is definitely effecting the minds of those that interact with it!!!!

I could almost describe it as a loosening of inhibitions. Like being drunk.

Drunk on POWER!

[PrivateSmiley]

My two biggest takeaways:

1) The letter from Baine to Anduin was gut-wrenching.

The two of them have always believed that peace can be achieved. We saw in War Crimes when Perith was on the stand how much Baine valued that relationship.

The events in BtS echo that in a lot of ways. and it had to be hard for Anduin to lose someone that he valued as a friend like that.

2) Genn's reveal at the end that he has misjudged the forsaken. the dude has hated on the Forsaken for YEARS, (even though, one could arguably argue that if he hadn't left Lordaeron to it's fate by being a douche, that maybe they wouldnt have all become forsaken) and it was nice for him to finally eat crow about the Forsaken.

[Powerogue]

I just want to mention that apparently some Night Elves were guarding a mining camp, they were ambushed and slaughtered.

At night.

By goblins.

Sentinel 1: Okay, now we hide in trees and wait for enemies to approach with our bows drawn.
Sentinel 2: Uhhh, there's no trees out here. It's a desert.
Sentinel 1: Hmm, Plan B then, just sort of stand here and look threatening.
* goblin assassins come out from under their Stealthmans *
Sentinels: ARGH, OUR ANKLES!!

[Clone]

Oh I completely agree the Alliance are no angels but when it comes to the Ashenvale conflict (the only thing I am addressing) They are in this case. Personally the Alliance as a whole and the horde along with them can sod off into oblivion.

Yeah, the Alliance is no angel yet Horde gets the blame.

[dekal]

I actually loved some of the character development that happened in the book on the alliance's side. Anduin seemed to have matured and lost a lot of his naivety, Genn's stance on the undead is evolving, and Turalyon's acceptance of the undead after certain events. It also brought to light the motivations of Sylvanas and how she thinks. It was surprising to learn how paranoid she was of losing hold of her people, even to the point of murdering them for simply holding a positive sentiment to their still living relatives. She also went as far as to give Baine a death threat for having a friendship with Anduin, possibly destroying a path to peace.

While the alliance seems to be holding together and getting stronger, the horde seems to be doing the quite opposite. A line from the book comes to mind where Sylvanas considers killing Anduin but then realizes how universally liked he is in the alliance while the horde did not share the sentiment for her, and what that could mean if war broke out then.

[Seylene]

Yeah, the Alliance is no angel yet Horde gets the blame.

Yeah thats again the fault of kind of derpy writers not really knowing where they are going. I always get the feeling the guys are like "This will be so cool" Now how do we get there. and just kind of move pieces around till it looks okay ish. I'd love to do more provocative acts as Alliance and that was my answer to the peace. They can afford to go monster mode and take back what was theirs and then make peace because they have that history of being the idiots who will just smile really wide and go okie day That way the horde get to be the good guys who go down fighting and accept peace for the betterment of Azeroth. And we can switch things up a bit. One being to point out a solid part in which the Alliance were outright brutal.

I don't think there is anything wrong in finally fighting back especially if it can be done to give racial flavor back because the Factions are killing it and the factions as a whole are both sooooo boring.

[MrSaggins]

Maining a Forsaken Priest throughout Legion gave the whole novel a very personal touch for me.

[Theoris]

If the story doesn't go the route of everybody being buddy-buddy with each other when all is said and done, I imagine the end of BfA will go something along the lines of Dawn of War 3. The 'Wayfarers', or in this case the factions, begrudgingly team up to take down the Big Bad (again) and go their separate ways as soon as the day is won, while still very much remaining enemies.

Cliche as it is, I kinda hope it's the latter. The mutual loathing festering between the factions being so strong that not even several apocalyptic events (with Azeroth dying to boot) can get rid of it - and I can picture it will only grow worse as BfA goes on - actually has me intrigued a bit.

[Syegfryed]

A bunch of worgen didn't push them back though. That was the Silverwing and then Shandris, Tyrande and a ship of relief troops pushed them back. Math is still there horde forces just lost. That's why they released the Magnataur the Worgen only killed the magnataur. (As far as I remember I havent read Wolfheart in foreves like 86% sure on this.)

again, you are not thinking clearly

just think for a second, if the worgen did only kill the magnataur, and the night elves push then back alone, it is OBIVIOUS it was not the entire horde army there, just a small army( and it as not the magnatur the worgens attacked, varian himself clashed with garrosh)

only if you think the entire night elf is bigger or equal of the entire horde army forces, when previous then got streamrolled by one clan alone many times in the past, this is nonsense

lol they made a mad decision based on the developers caveat.

not rly, it is a decision that make clearly sense with their lore, they are still everything what i said, all elves are like that, they just change forcefully a bit to adapt in the good alliance with time, so they needed to be good and pure with no flaws

They -were- xenophoic until the end of WC3 where they made peace among the Horde under Thrall and humans under Jaina. They never begged. I am assuming you don't like the race and thats fine im not asking you too but let's at least be real here. Azshara was nothing about leaves but the horde once again invading their lands. (sense a theme here?)

they made peace with thrall then stab him in the back, its all about leaves, the horde need supplies, the elves would let then die, the allies who help then against the legion die, to not let then get resources in azshara, cause ''sacred tress" and "hun hun that is mine"

That is the point right there the elves never once struck first the orcs have always been the aggressors even since when Grom invaded Ashenvale bursting through warning signs that everyone on the continent understood and respected for over 10k years.

ROFL, all the times the night elves were the aggressors and attacked first, this only changed with Garrosh who didn'twait

warning signs... what warning signs? you are making things up, they come to a forest, found nothing and no one, and start cutting lumber, (oh god what a crime), then the elves start killing then with no signal, no warning, no tentative of diplomacy or talk, they just attack, too bad for then, the orcs are not like the shit races they fight there so easily

And I stand by my initial claim if a Sentinel lodge can stop and hold a massive horde assault and then turn it back to victory with the arrival of Tyrande then the entirety of the Darnassian army combined with the full Sentinel army coming up from Feralas can easily end the Ashenvale conflict to my standards

.

except the sentinel lodge only stop a small army of the horde with a lot of help of the alliance, when the battle was already lost in another place, so, if the night elves take their entire army, just the orcs could put then down, like they did before in vanilla

thats right, the sentinels attacked and the warsong -alone- streamrolled then, so they ask help for the alliance cause they could do no nothing, against one orc clan

night elves are a race who fight guerrilla warfare, the orcs fight war since they were born, it is obvious who would win

If you disagree that's fine this was all based on the question of what needs to happen for peace and that is my opinion and with the examples as to how I came to it.

one think is what you think need to happen, other think is if that is even remotely possible based on lore, they can retake the territory, but beyond that is just nonsense