Greek PM Tsipras survives confidence vote over Macedonia name deal

[Player Twelve]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44509996

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has survived a no-confidence vote over the deal his government made to settle a name dispute with Macedonia.

It was tabled by the country's main opposition party, New Democracy, but was rejected by a margin of 153-127.

The result paves the way for an historic signing ceremony on Sunday.

Mr Tsipras and his Macedonian counterpart Zoran Zaev have agreed that Greece's neighbour will be renamed the Republic of North Macedonia.

The aim of the deal was to distinguish it from a province in northern Greece also called Macedonia.

The name has been a subject of contention for more than two decades since the break-up of the former Yugoslavia, with Athens arguing that by using the name Macedonia the country was implying it had a claim to the Greek region.

But opposition figures in Greece argue that Mr Tsipras has made too many concessions in the deal.

On Saturday, protesters angry with the government briefly clashed with police on the steps of the parliament building.

What happens now?
Following the vote, the foreign ministers from both countries are expected to meet on the border for a ceremony in which they will sign the agreement.

Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias and Macedonia's Nikola Dimitrov will sign the pact on Sunday and both prime ministers will be present.

But there is still some way to go before the name change becomes official.

So could the change be stopped?
Yes, the agreement will have to overcome a few obstacles before it goes through.

Macedonia's parliament will first need to back the deal. That would be followed by a referendum in September or October.

If voters there support it, the government would have to change the constitution which is a key Greek demand.

Things have been complicated further as Macedonia's President Gjorge Ivanov is refusing to sign the agreement.

He has the power to veto the deal - but not indefinitely.

If he refuses to sign it, it will be sent back to parliament for a second vote. If it passes again, President Ivanov would then be obliged to approve the legislation.

The deal will finally have to be ratified by the Greek parliament, a process which may also not be straightforward.

@Stelio Kontos All this over a name?

[Mormolyce]

If they fought a war over it, it probably still wouldn't be in the top ten silliest things wars have been fought over.

[Wyrt]

The saga of the stupidest modern national conflict continues!

[hellhamster]

I wouldn't wish Greek politicians even on my worst enemy. The human filth occupying the Greek parliament needs to be cleansed, preferably by neutron bombs.

What a horrible, horrible country we have become. I don't know what else to say.

Nuke us all asap.

- - - Updated - - -

If they fought a war over it, it probably still wouldn't be in the top ten silliest things wars have been fought over.

We are going to gift our northern culture, history, language and identity to a country that is 70% Bulgarians and 30% Albanians just so they can enter NATO and the EU without our veto, without asking the people how they feel about it (80% negative). This government approves of it for the sole purpose of looking like a good boy and maybe gain EU debt relief and US military bases in the process.

[Stelio Kontos]

It is a silly issue that nationalists and irredentists in both countries have been going crazy over.

I'm fine with them calling themselves Macedonia as long as certain conditions are met.

First, they need to give up their irredentist claims to northern Greece. They were publishing text books, at least in the 90s, if not later, showing the Greek portion of Macedonia as being part of their country. So that needs to stop, and it may have, I'm not entirely sure. Just after WW2, when Greece had its civil war against communist insurgents, a large contingent of communists belonged to slavic minorities in the north, and maps were published by Jozip Tito showing Yugoslavia with Greek Macedonia as part of their country should the communists win the war, so the land claim issue does have some historical roots, and should be addressed.

Second, they need to stop co-opting Greek history. If they want to be their own country, then be their own country. Slavic Macedonians migrated into northern Macedonia long after Alexander the Great's time, so why do they claim him as their national hero?

It's a silly issue, but I honestly don't care as long as they drop their claim to our land, and stop essentially claiming Greek historical figures have any ties to the Slavic nation of Macedonia.

[DarkTZeratul]

The saga of the stupidest modern national conflict continues!

Stupid, but entirely understandable. But also, really, definitely kind of stupid.

[hellhamster]

It is a silly issue that nationalists and irredentists in both countries have been going crazy over.

I'm fine with them calling themselves Macedonia as long as certain conditions are met.

First, they need to give up their irredentist claims to northern Greece. They were publishing text books, at least in the 90s, if not later, showing the Greek portion of Macedonia as being part of their country. So that needs to stop, and it may have, I'm not entirely sure. Just after WW2, when Greece had its civil war against communist insurgents, a large contingent of communists belonged to slavic minorities in the north, and maps were published by Jozip Tito showing Yugoslavia with Greek Macedonia as part of their country should the communists win the war, so the land claim issue does have some historical roots, and should be addressed.

Second, they need to stop co-opting Greek history. If they want to be their own country, then be their own country. Slavic Macedonians migrated into northern Macedonia long after Alexander the Great's time, so why do they claim him as their national hero?

It's a silly issue, but I honestly don't care as long as they drop their claim to our land, and stop essentially claiming Greek historical figures have any ties to the Slavic nation of Macedonia.

We've given Cyprus to the Turks 40 years ago, Macedonia to Skopje now, let's see how long it takes takes us to give Thrace to Bulgaria, Epirus to Albania and the Aegean to Turkey. Why stop there though, the Ionian was under Latin occupation for a while, let's give that to Italy while we can.

[Deleted]

We've given Cyprus to the Turks 40 years ago, Macedonia to Skopje now, let's see how long it takes takes us to give Thrace to Bulgaria, Epirus to Albania and the Aegean to Turkey. Why stop there though, the Ionian was under Latin occupation for a while, let's give that to Italy while we can.

Don't forget you sold your soul to Germany and your harbours to the Chinese

Seriously though, I feel bad for Greece and it's people. The damn birthplace of Western culture and democracy should somehow be protected more imo.

[Stelio Kontos]

We've given Cyprus to the Turks 40 years ago, Macedonia to Skopje now, let's see how long it takes takes us to give Thrace to Bulgaria, Epirus to Albania and the Aegean to Turkey. Why stop there though, the Ionian was under Latin occupation for a while, let's give that to Italy while the rest is already under German control.

I agree, we give in too much.

But we also have no choice. No one's on our side for much of anything. Europe would sell us out for a new car, there are elements in Turkey that would love to carve us up. America's always worn Turkish-themed knee-pads. Macedonia is small, I'd think we can deal with them in most situations, as long as they stop saying Thessaloniki is one of their cities, and Alexander is THEIR national figure, I'm willing to overlook the name. Historical Macedon is larger than just the part still in Greece, unfortunately.

And yeah, the ethnic cleansing of northern Cyprus does show that really, no one gives a fuck about us unless there's something they can use from us. So let's try and handle the small situations like this, because the bigger ones can't be handled that easily; like Erdogan thinking he's the new Suleiman the Magnificent. I bet he's gonna want us to start referring to him as 'effendi' soon. And Tsipras would probably agree.

And I'm an Epirote, I'll be cold and dead before I see Ioannina in xenoi hands again.

[hellhamster]

Don't forget you sold your soul to Germany and your harbours to the Chinese

Seriously though, I feel bad for Greece and it's people. The damn birthplace of Western culture and democracy should somehow be protected more imo.

Just nuke us and forget we've ever existed. Everything is 100% our fault as well, voting the way we do for generations.

I'm so ashamed.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree, we give in too much.

But we also have no choice. No one's on our side for much of anything. Europe would sell us out for a new car, there are elements in Turkey that would love to carve us up. America's always worn Turkish-themed knee-pads. Macedonia is small, I'd think we can deal with them in most situations, as long as they stop saying Thessaloniki is one of their cities, and Alexander is THEIR national figure, I'm willing to overlook the name. Historical Macedon is larger than just the part still in Greece, unfortunately.

And yeah, the ethnic cleansing of northern Cyprus does show that really, no one gives a fuck about us unless there's something they can use from us. So let's try and handle the small situations like this, because the bigger ones can't be handled that easily; like Erdogan thinking he's the new Suleiman the Magnificent. I bet he's gonna want us to start referring to him as 'effendi' soon. And Tsipras would probably agree.

Erdogan is laughing his ass off, he will have an ally in the EU soon enough.

[Stelio Kontos]

Just nuke us and forget we've ever existed. Everything is 100% our fault as well, voting the way we do for generations.

I'm so ashamed.

- - - Updated - - -



Erdogan is laughing his ass off, he will have an ally in the EU soon enough.

The fact is, we don't matter. We have no political power, no real cultural power, no economic power. We're at the mercy of xenoi, and they are not merciful people.

[Deleted]

The fact is, we don't matter. We have no political power, no real cultural power, no economic power. We're at the mercy of xenoi, and they are not merciful people.

In the past, this would've been enough ground for some dictator to rise to power. In many countries today this would still be the case actually.
But nothing seems to be happening. At all.

It's like the people of Greece have given up?

[hellhamster]

In the past, this would've been enough ground for some dictator to rise to power. In many countries today this would still be the case actually.
But nothing seems to be happening. At all.

It's like the people of Greece have given up?

The military has its generals rotated every few months for fear of creating a coup.

[Deleted]

The military has its generals rotated every few months for fear of creating a coup.

Damn, first time I hear about this. Smart btw, I can see why they are afraid of that. Still not 100% coupe-proof of course, Franco for example staged his coupe from exile.

I believe your military is still pretty powerful and actually is pretty modern too, right?

[hellhamster]

I believe your military is still pretty powerful and actually is pretty modern too, right?

The military is OK, the equipment is dated a bit etc, it's mostly the navy and airforce that are good.

[ati87]

I agree, we give in too much.

But we also have no choice. No one's on our side for much of anything. Europe would sell us out for a new car, there are elements in Turkey that would love to carve us up. America's always worn Turkish-themed knee-pads. Macedonia is small, I'd think we can deal with them in most situations, as long as they stop saying Thessaloniki is one of their cities, and Alexander is THEIR national figure, I'm willing to overlook the name. Historical Macedon is larger than just the part still in Greece, unfortunately.

And yeah, the ethnic cleansing of northern Cyprus does show that really, no one gives a fuck about us unless there's something they can use from us. So let's try and handle the small situations like this, because the bigger ones can't be handled that easily; like Erdogan thinking he's the new Suleiman the Magnificent. I bet he's gonna want us to start referring to him as 'effendi' soon. And Tsipras would probably agree.

And I'm an Epirote, I'll be cold and dead before I see Ioannina in xenoi hands again.

What up with this victim complex....kind of sad and pathetic really.

[Deleted]

What up with this victim complex....kind of sad and pathetic really.

Well, they are not the same people as in the times of Alexander the Great, nor the same as in the days of the Battle of Thermopylae and Marathon.
But they also don't have the same type of leaders as the Greeks did back then, so I guess it's just difficult all around.

[Macaquerie]

I feel like Greece is just way too hung on the past in general, and while I'm sure it's fun to revel in the glories of the ancient heroes, at some point you have to open your eyes and live in the modern world. This whole Macedonia kerfuffle is ridiculous, countries should be able to call themselves whatever the hell they want without anyone getting offended. Sure it's a bit weird that a Slavic nation would want to lay claim to Alexander's legacy, but then again Alexander was a globalist who wouldn't have tolerated this kind of petty bickering over identity politics.

[hellhamster]

I feel like Greece is just way too hung on the past in general, and while I'm sure it's fun to revel in the glories of the ancient heroes, at some point you have to open your eyes and live in the modern world. This whole Macedonia kerfuffle is ridiculous, countries should be able to call themselves whatever the hell they want without anyone getting offended. Sure it's a bit weird that a Slavic nation would want to lay claim to Alexander's legacy, but then again Alexander was a globalist who wouldn't have tolerated this kind of petty bickering over identity politics.

You don't understand.

It's like Belgium claiming Limburg is theirs. Like Mexico claiming Texas or New Mexico. Except this isn't west Europe and we aren't USA. This is the Balkans, one of the most volatile areas in the world. Common sense and peace is a strange concept here.

Also, why would we tolerate other countries claiming things they are nowhere near related to? Things we have shed blood for. Things that give doubt to our sovereignty and history. Things that work as a precursor for many other issues, like Thrace or the Aegean or Epirus. I had a great great grandfather who was a Makedonomachos. He shed blood for Macedonia and through his sacrifice and many others I have a chance at life. This deal that should never pass parliament takes a big steamy dump on this sacrifice.

You don't understand. You would never understand. No matter.

[Cracked]

Well, they are not the same people as in the times of Alexander the Great, nor the same as in the days of the Battle of Thermopylae and Marathon.
But they also don't have the same type of leaders as the Greeks did back then, so I guess it's just difficult all around.

Neither are the Greeks actually, just like calling yourself Macedonia doesn't mean your people have anything to do with historical Macedonia, being a modern age Greek doesn't mean you have anything to do with Ancient Greece, genetic heritage or otherwise.