They need a better class design team ASAP

[Deleted]

So basically Shaman is back in the dark ages where if you play it you're only wanted if you played a healer?

If something is so messed up that literally a whole classes DPS specs are worthless then someone needs to lose their job.

I love Shaman and this is really pissing me off...I fucking hate Ion. Seems like his goals are more focused on trolling people than actually fixing problem areas of the game.

They aren't in an unplayable state man. They are still very viable. This isn't the dark ages again.

[Deleted]

I think they had a good one in MoP, that was responsible for actually making Shaman playable but I guess he got fired soon after.

[Tradu]

I think they had a good one in MoP, that was responsible for actually making Shaman playable but I guess he got fired soon after.

MoP had the best iterations of basically all classes/specs, with a few exceptions like Blood which was better in WoD.

[Deleted]

Legion classes were already not great, BfA is basically those same classes without artifacts/legendaries to prop them up.

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We're less than 2 months from launch. Them not showing raid azerite traits is super worrying, considering the first T19 bonus iterations were datamined 6 months before Legion launch(so a year before they became obtainable, whereas BfA's "tier bonuses" will be available after about 1 month of the expansion being out)

Legion classes were outright broken without leggys and artifact. Do you look at your talent tree these days? How many choices do you have there?
In BfA the classes are baseline fixed. The talent trees are fixed. They aren't outright broken, and that is why they are better. Baseline they are better, talent wise they are better. Sure, i wish they didn't outright remove the artifact ability on some specs. But for the most part, they are in a good place. You no longer depend on getting X ranks and legendaries for your spec to be viable.
Like, what you are saying that they are the same minus artifact, just tells me you haven't been looking at the changes to the baseline and talent abilities.

As for the 2 months, stop worrying so much. You are impatient. The expansion has been feature complete for several weeks. They are only now doing the balance changes and that is where the new Azerite bonuses will come in. Stop worrying so much. Even if you were right, they wouldn't listen at this point. Wait for the bonuses to come out and if they aren't good, let them know. No point stressing over what we don't know yet. Live life.

[Tradu]

Legion classes were outright broken without leggys and artifact. Do you look at your talent tree these days? How many choices do you have there?
In BfA the classes are baseline fixed. The talent trees are fixed. They aren't outright broken, and that is why they are better. Baseline they are better, talent wise they are better. Sure, i wish tney didn't outright remove the artifact ability on some specs. But for the most part, they are in a good place. You no longer depend on getting X ranks and legendaries for your spec to be viable.
Like, what you are saying that they are the same minus artifact, just tells me you haven't been looking at the changes to the baseline and talent abilities.

As for the 2 months, stop worrying so much. You are impatient. The expansion has been feature complete for several weeks. They are only now doing the balance changes and that is where the new Azerite bonuses will come in. Stop worrying so much. Even if you were rght, they woukdn't lisen at this point. Wait for the bonuses to come out and if they aren't good, let them know. No point stressing over what we don't know yet. Live life.

You don't know that we have choices in BfA talents either until tuning is done. And so far what they've done for most specs is just delete a few talents to make room for legendaries/artifact traits to become talents. And it's not feature complete if there's still a huge part of a central system missing(also being feature complete for "weeks" when the beta, which is supposed to be feature complete, has been out for months is hardly something to celebrate)
And I'd take a spec that depends on a legendary to be "complete" over the BfA ones that just aren't complete.

[Deleted]

MoP had the best iterations of basically all classes/specs, with a few exceptions like Blood which was better in WoD.

I agree, MoP possibly was the best expansion as far as class design goes.

Even though they already started gutting talents and abilities, almost all classes still felt like they had some distinct flavour to them.

[Shagunda]

you make it seem like crit is something that HAS to be the mainstat for demon hunters. so what if it doesn't need crit anymore. it seems to me that was a calculated decision. if demon hunter in bfa scales more with haste and mastery what's the problem? having a different stat priority doesn't suddenly mean the spec doesn't work.

[Deleted]

You don't know that we have choices in BfA talents either until tuning is done. And so far what they've done for most specs is just delete a few talents to make room for legendaries/artifact traits to become talents. And it's not feature complete if there's still a huge part of a central system missing(also being feature complete for "weeks" when the beta, which is supposed to be feature complete, has been out for months is hardly something to celebrate)
And I'd take a spec that depends on a legendary to be "complete" over the BfA ones that just aren't complete.

Panic! Panic! Sky is falling!

Stop being so impatient... honestly...

[Tradu]

Panic! Panic! Sky is falling!

Stop being so impatient... honestly...

What has Blizzard done recently that would warrant me giving them the benefit of the doubt or being patient? Why would I wait until it's live to voice concerns about the expansion? Class design has been going down overall since WoD, and I'd rather that doesn't continue.

[Wildstars]

Some specs (mostly ones that were shit in Legion) are feels much better now. But it doesn't mean they good. Overall Class Design is much worse than what we had in MoP or even in WoD. Expect next WoD but with content and bad gameplay. Because class gameplay is a core of gameplay.

[Nyel]

Classes are fine.

Aslong as they have interesting sets/talents on that azerite gear.

Well, for both claims it's a no as of now.

Come on, the overwhelming negativity towards class design in BfA is unique as of now. No expansion had this much outcry when it comes to class gameplay.

[nocturnus]

The fact that class design/balance has been objectively shit for 3 exp says something.

Someone needs a dictionary.

[SirBeef]

It seems like everyone's concern and why people are not going to buy BfA or drop it fast is because of class design, the game came to be a HoTS/Diablo type clone in term of class design, where you spam 4 spells and these spells are realy boring. The fact that class design/balance has been objectively shit for 3 exp says something. Why can't we just get back to BC/WoTLK level skills?

That's not my concern, but thanks for speaking for me.

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Well, for both claims it's a no as of now.

Come on, the overwhelming negativity towards class design in BfA is unique as of now. No expansion had this much outcry when it comes to class gameplay.

WoD after the crunch and prune in beta was pretty much similar in terms of people bitching. We still don't know if raid Azerite gear will have any better or unique talents/traits. I also believe this was done so they could add stuff as the game moves forward, sort of like a soft reboot of you will.

[SpookyMoonz]

Classes are fine.

Aslong as they have interesting sets/talents on that azerite gear.

A lot of people lack vision. Legion was in a terrible state. BfA is in a good state. The classes do look a bit on the basic side baseline, but the talents give it more complexity if you so wish. Add the azerite bonuses on top of it and you got varied and playable classes that don't depend on the added system to function like they did in Legion.

Btw, as far as being 3 or 4 buttons in the main rotation, it's always been the case. It is not new.

Do you even understand what you just said? You said the classes feel a bit basic, but it's cool as long as they have interesting sets/talents on that azerite gear - but then in the next sentence say they won't rely on the extra system to function like they did in Legion. WHAT?

So does it actually matter or not if they have good sets/talents on the azerite gear? If it does, then they're relying on that system to function properly as a class JUST AS MUCH as classes in Legions relied on artifacts - secondly, dude, azerite traits are nothing more than passives and I'll be hardpressed for you to find an example of something other than a passive damage proc or something simillar on the azerite gear. Wow, so some people can't press any buttons aside from four or play the game much beyond an immediately-repeating loop of three animations spammed inbetween 1.5s long GCD's, but those four buttons sure produce some nice numbers in the 1,000's.

3 or 4 buttons always been in the main rotation for every spec? MoP and every expansion prior to that is calling you when some classes had huge toolkits to work with - there's a reason the pruning happened, dude, do you think it just happened just because or something? It happened due to TOO MANY BUTTONS, but no, there's always been only 3 or 4 buttons in the main rotation. Of course.

Where do you even acquire your thoughts?

[Nyel]

WoD after the crunch and prune in beta was pretty much similar in terms of people bitching. We still don't know if raid Azerite gear will have any better or unique talents/traits. I also believe this was done so they could add stuff as the game moves forward, sort of like a soft reboot of you will.

Well the difference to WoD is - afaik - that most specs felt really good. And most specs were still quite enticing. The pruning in WoD was significant but not as bad as the pruning in BfA is now because we lose so much Legion stuff next to baseline things. Even after pruning specs in WoD felt somehow good (Shadow Priest and Mistweaver Monk especially, great specs back then) - something which is not the case for BfA as of now.

[SpookyMoonz]

They aren't in an unplayable state man. They are still very viable. This isn't the dark ages again.

So someone who presumably plays the class says the class is bad and your main argument is "they're still very viable"....ok, and? Then why is it shamans are complaining left & right? 8.0 PTR forums, shaman forums, feedback forums, shamans don't look happy, my guy.

WHY do you think this is?

[Mafic]

It is very subjective and objective when it comes to class design.

I know people that did not care for the artifact talents for Sub and Outlaw Rogues. Outlaw Rogues main cool down Curse of Dreadblades literally caused a loss of HP for every finisher. Sub has literally a fancier version of Shiv as an active artifact trait. I do not think Sub or Outlaw Rogues are going to miss those that much into BFA.

So some people will like BFA class design over Legion. However, what is the net gain going from Legion to BFA? Right now it isn't looking good to be honest.

[Kithelle]

They aren't in an unplayable state man. They are still very viable. This isn't the dark ages again.

Shaman DPS is in horrible shape...

[Karry]

What I wouldnt do to go back to AT LEAST WoD rogue. They killed the class in Legion for me.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I would already be happy if the current team would stop putting my base toolkit in the damn talent tree. If I actually had some of these abilities baseline again, especially the situational ones, classes would feel way better. That I have to skill basic stuff to get a decent AoE, actually interact with my mastery or spice up my 2 button rotation is just terrible.