Greek PM Tsipras survives confidence vote over Macedonia name deal

[hellhamster]

Neither are the Greeks actually, just like calling yourself Macedonia doesn't mean your people have anything to do with historical Macedonia, being a modern age Greek doesn't mean you have anything to do with Ancient Greece, genetic heritage or otherwise.

Yeah because genetic heritage works except when it's concerning Greeks because our county is shit right now. Greeks were probably abducted by aliens at some point, it all makes sense now.

[Cracked]

Yeah because genetic heritage works except when it's concerning Greeks because our county is shit right now. Greeks were probably abducted by aliens at some point, it all makes sense now.

Nah, it's the simple history of what happened over the past 2000 years. I suggest you go study.

[hellhamster]

Nah, it's the simple history of what happened over the past 2000 years. I suggest you go study.

At what point in these last 2000 years did the aliens abduct us?

I assure you I know the history of my own country better than you by the way.

[Cracked]

At what point in these last 2000 years did the aliens abduct us?

I assure you I know the history of my own country better than you by the way.

From your responses.. I highly doubt that.

[hellhamster]

From your responses.. I highly doubt that.

You come here with a stupid claim, back it up.

[Kallisto]

Neither are the Greeks actually, just like calling yourself Macedonia doesn't mean your people have anything to do with historical Macedonia, being a modern age Greek doesn't mean you have anything to do with Ancient Greece, genetic heritage or otherwise.

Greeks genetically have hardly changed over the past 3000 years. When foreign powers came over they generally just supplanted the rulers and left the common folk alone. Ancient Macedonia was a Northern Greek kingdom (It passed all the tests in are you Greek or not and thus were allowed in the Ancient Olympics).

[Mormolyce]

In the past, this would've been enough ground for some dictator to rise to power. In many countries today this would still be the case actually.
But nothing seems to be happening. At all.

It's like the people of Greece have given up?

Where's a good dictator when you need one, right?

The fact is, we don't matter. We have no political power, no real cultural power, no economic power. We're at the mercy of xenoi, and they are not merciful people.

I see this idiotic mentality exists in Greece too.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, they are not the same people as in the times of Alexander the Great, nor the same as in the days of the Battle of Thermopylae and Marathon.
But they also don't have the same type of leaders as the Greeks did back then, so I guess it's just difficult all around.

The Ancient Greeks had many many rulers of all different kinds - democratic, dictatorships, satrapies, military juntas... and they were a huge mixed bag of good rulers and assholes. Mostly assholes. Like anywhere, really.

[geassedbylelouch]

I'm glad rational thought has won.
There's no room for emotional baggage about names in politics.
it's just a name.

[Elegiac]

I feel like Greece is just way too hung on the past in general, and while I'm sure it's fun to revel in the glories of the ancient heroes, at some point you have to open your eyes and live in the modern world. This whole Macedonia kerfuffle is ridiculous, countries should be able to call themselves whatever the hell they want without anyone getting offended. Sure it's a bit weird that a Slavic nation would want to lay claim to Alexander's legacy, but then again Alexander was a globalist who wouldn't have tolerated this kind of petty bickering over identity politics.

Sadly, it's what you get when you have a country founded solely on irredentism. What's sadder is that the only time Greece seems to be able to enjoy any sort of political stability is under dictatorial or foreign government.

And before the ethnikoi in this thread start complaining about the opinions of xenoi, I'm a Cretan Greek.

- - - Updated - - -

Neither are the Greeks actually, just like calling yourself Macedonia doesn't mean your people have anything to do with historical Macedonia, being a modern age Greek doesn't mean you have anything to do with Ancient Greece, genetic heritage or otherwise.

Much as I hate the nationalist arguments, this is untrue. There is strong evidence of genetic continuity between the early Helladic peoples and modern ethnic Greeks.

Not that it matters since being a Hellene has generally always been a function of culture and language rather than descent.

[JohnBrown1917]

Always funny to see Greeks get salty over a name.

[Stelio Kontos]

Sadly, it's what you get when you have a country founded solely on irredentism. What's sadder is that the only time Greece seems to be able to enjoy any sort of political stability is under dictatorial or foreign government.

And before the ethnikoi in this thread start complaining about the opinions of xenoi, I'm a Cretan Greek.

I agree in part, though I do think Greece was founded on more than irredentism (though that's always been a problem in the Balkans), unless you think we should have just stayed subjects of the Turks.

Also, yeah, Greece has always had terrible leaders, with a few exceptions. The junta years brought stability, for all the other problems they raised.

And I knew you were Greek, but Cretan? Wow, that is really a surprise, for a lot of reasons.

Much as I hate the nationalist arguments, this is untrue. There is strong evidence of genetic continuity between the early Helladic peoples and modern ethnic Greeks.

Not that it matters since being a Hellene has generally always been a function of culture and language rather than descent.

True on both counts. There is a genetic continuity. But also true that a Hellene is a cultural facet rather than an ethnic one, which allowed Hellenism to spread so far in the classical world. I don't care if you're ancestors are from Europe, Asia, Africa, or anywhere else, if you speak Greek and take part in the Greek sphere of culture in a positive way, you're a Greek in my eyes.

[Elegiac]

I agree in part, though I do think Greece was founded on more than irredentism (though that's always been a problem in the Balkans), unless you think we should have just stayed subjects of the Turks.

The classicist in me favors independence, the realist in me thinks that there is a good argument to be made that the Greeks were better off under the Ottomans; especially considering since they controlled most of the civil service.

Also, yeah, Greece has always had terrible leaders, with a few exceptions. The junta years brought stability, for all the other problems they raised.

And I knew you were Greek, but Cretan? Wow, that is really a surprise, for a lot of reasons.

Why's that?

Our family also supported the Communists, so...Yeah. I was never able to ascertain if they were actually Communists or just really hated the King.

True on both counts. There is a genetic continuity. But also true that a Hellene is a cultural facet rather than an ethnic one, which allowed Hellenism to spread so far in the classical world. I don't care if you're ancestors are from Europe, Asia, Africa, or anywhere else, if you speak Greek and take part in the Greek sphere of culture in a positive way, you're a Greek in my eyes.

Which I think is a good attitude to have regarding any "national" identity. You cannot identify a culture with a singular ethnicity and then complain that foreigners refuse to integrate, because you're not letting them.

Homonoia. Let's bring it back this millennium.

[Stelio Kontos]

Why's that?

Our family also supported the Communists, so...Yeah. I was never able to ascertain if they were actually Communists or just really hated the King.

Cretans have a certain reputation. Pretty fierce, the whole vendettas, omerta code of honor sort of thing. Back in 2009 a British chav tourist sexually harassed/assaulted a Cretan woman in a bar in Malia (notorious for the shitty British tourists there) and she threw a glass of sambuca on him. He claims she then lit his wet torso on fire, she claims he was drunk, and tried to light a cigarette and set himself on fire. She was hailed as a hero, and he left Crete as soon as he had recovered enough, partly fearing retribution from angry Cretans.

Also, lots of Greek communists are just communists in name only. My grandmother was a communist in her youth, but still devoutly went to church. I think part of it was just rebellion against the status quo.

[Elegiac]

Cretans have a certain reputation. Pretty fierce, the whole vendettas, omerta code of honor sort of thing. Back in 2009 a British chav tourist sexually harassed/assaulted a Cretan woman in a bar in Malia (notorious for the shitty British tourists there) and she threw a glass of sambuca on him. He claims she then lit his wet torso on fire, she claims he was drunk, and tried to light a cigarette and set himself on fire. She was hailed as a hero, and he left Crete as soon as he had recovered enough, partly fearing retribution from angry Cretans.

Well, yes. There's that.

Probably explains why I'm so viscerally left wing I guess.

[Easo]

Finally, some good news! One less stupidity (hopefully) in the world.
P.S.
Hellhamster, you are the perfect example of everything wrong with your country (obviously, there are similar "nationalists" in Macedonia too, gib clay people are everywhere, no matter how big or small).
This is not a real problem. It NEVER has been a real problem. Macedonia could claim whatever they wish (they really didnt, though). Its not like they even could do anything, if they tried. And, contrary to your "oh poor Greece, world is against us!", no, the world would not ask you to give anything to Macedonia.
Grow. Up.

[hellhamster]

Finally, some good news! One less stupidity (hopefully) in the world.
P.S.
Hellhamster, you are the perfect example of everything wrong with your country (obviously, there are similar "nationalists" in Macedonia too, gib clay people are everywhere, no matter how big or small).
This is not a real problem. It NEVER has been a real problem. Macedonia could claim whatever they wish (they really didnt, though). Its not like they even could do anything, if they tried. And, contrary to your "oh poor Greece, world is against us!", no, the world would not ask you to give anything to Macedonia.
Grow. Up.

Thank you foreigner for telling me me how to think about my country, I see the light now, thank you.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree in part, though I do think Greece was founded on more than irredentism (though that's always been a problem in the Balkans), unless you think we should have just stayed subjects of the Turks.

Also, yeah, Greece has always had terrible leaders, with a few exceptions. The junta years brought stability, for all the other problems they raised.

And I knew you were Greek, but Cretan? Wow, that is really a surprise, for a lot of reasons.





True on both counts. There is a genetic continuity. But also true that a Hellene is a cultural facet rather than an ethnic one, which allowed Hellenism to spread so far in the classical world. I don't care if you're ancestors are from Europe, Asia, Africa, or anywhere else, if you speak Greek and take part in the Greek sphere of culture in a positive way, you're a Greek in my eyes.

Crete voted for Syriza in 2016. Probably due to their fuck Germans mentality still derelict from WW2.

[Stelio Kontos]

Probably due to their fuck Germans mentality still derelict from WW2.

Well, I'm not really gonna fault them for that. Targeting foreigners and assaulting them is wrong on principle, but if it's gonna happen, there are better choices than the poor Pakistani, Nigerian, or Albanian just trying to make a living. Just sayin...the guys in the suits with the Mercedes are much better targets than some poor immigrant laborer.

[Noradin]

It's like Belgium claiming Limburg is theirs.

They do.
So do The Netherlands.
And Germany of course.Twice.

Where is the problem? It's just a name.

[Acidbaron]

They do.
So do The Netherlands.
And Germany of course.Twice.

Where is the problem? It's just a name.

Still a bit puzzled what the hell he's on about when making that statement. I live there i can very much confirm part of Limburg is indeed ours.

[Kallisto]

Still a bit puzzled what the hell he's on about when making that statement. I live there i can very much confirm part of Limburg is indeed ours.

I think he means instead of Belgium only claiming part, Netherlands claiming part and Germany claimin part but none of the others claiming lands in the areas belonging to the neighbouring country. That North Macedonia tried to claim all of the Macedonian region.

He's not wrong in that there are many in North Macedonia that do. Some schools have text books showing their claim. They had signs up basically calling the Greek part an occupied zone. Plus North Macedonia was created as a Yugoslav republic by Tito as a means to claim Greek Macedonia after his initial post WW2 plan of unifying Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria and Greece into a Balkan Federation failed. (Albania and Bulgaria were close to joining. If the Communists won the civil war in Greece and if Tito/Stalin didn't split it likely would have happened.)