Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
... LastLast
  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    Yeah lol...people missed the part i said “joking aside”
    Most animals dont have emotions, people do anthropomorphize them though
    Blatantly wrong, we have been studying the emotional state of various mammalian species since the time of Charles Darwin. We've put dogs under fMRIs and learned that the same regions in the brain that light when we are happy or sad light up in a dog's brain. In general it is not difficult for humans to gauge the emotional state of many mammals and many trainers become so proficient in understanding the behavior of certain species that are able to read the minutest of behavioral signs.

    About wolves/red deer, we eat deer, wolves have been known to eat people, i’m not against keeping their population in check so we can hunt more deer.
    There have been only three recorded wolf-related deaths in the history of the United States. Not to mention that depriving a predatory species of their prey is literally the worst thing you can do, as you will just drive them to desperation.

    Actually posted on these forums a while ago was a study that found that when you shoot wolves you actually increase predation because you shatter the pack structure and create lone wolves that have to rely on simple livestock kills to survive.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This is a crucial point that gets ignored constantly. There's a non-trivial amount of land that's grazable that can't actually be used to grow crops. Trying to model human nutrition with a static assumption that this can or should be converted to plant growing is just plain incorrect.

    A related point that should be obvious, but apparently isn't, would be that local conditions are such that there is no catch-all rule for what the right thing to do across the globe is.
    It's not a crucial point, it's ignorant at best. This maybe applies to parts of Africa and maybe "small" parts of the USA, but the majority of livestock gets fed through crops. 87 percent of the agricultured land is for livestock... Feeding them through grazable land is a really romantic view but it wouldn't even make up for 5 percent of todays demand. Btw a lot of that "grazable" land was deforestated for livestock. If they wouldn't have livestock grazing on it, it would get back to it's natural state.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    It's not a crucial point, it's ignorant at best. This maybe applies to parts of Africa and maybe "small" parts of the USA, but the majority of livestock gets fed through crops. 87 percent of the agricultured land is for livestock... Feeding them through grazable land is a really romantic view but it wouldn't even make up for 5 percent of todays demand. Btw a lot of that "grazable" land was deforestated for livestock. If they wouldn't have livestock grazing on it, it would get back to it's natural state.
    What do you think the "natural state" of the Great Plains is?

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Saninicus View Post
    it's 100% a womens choice to decide.
    Of course it's 100% a woman's choice to remain pregnant or not, as she is the only one pregnant.

    Why would anyone else have a say in that?

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    None of this addresses the objections to veganism though. Sure, there are good reasons to not eat factory farmed food. That really doesn't address why someone wouldn't want to eat humanely raised beef. If someone objects to killing animals on the principle of sentience, that doesn't get at any valid reasoning behind refusing to eat eggs, oysters, and other animal-based food that's nutritious and can easily be obtained in a cruelty-free fashion.

    Veganism is a morally stunted position that trades thoughtful consideration of environment and nutrition for a quasi-religious devotion to kingdom-based nutritional preferences.
    It's never cruelty free. That's the thing. You still end up killing the animal for your own good. We don't have the space to raise all the meat needed to feed the world in an humanly way. Nor the space to milk enough cows to provide the whole world. If everything was good in the world and we could just snap fingers and suddenly there is no pollution problem, no space problem of any kind and all animals just live their life peacefully. A lot of vegans wouldn't mind eating eggs that were just laid there by free chicken, but it's not case at all. You do realize that to get milk you need to force a cow into pregnancy right? And that the milk you're taking is meant for the baby?

    There is no way to make this all cruelty free. You're just grasping at straws and acting like a cocky 12 year old who think he is oh so fucking smart.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Techno-Druid View Post
    Blatantly wrong, we have been studying the emotional state of various mammalian species since the time of Charles Darwin. We've put dogs under fMRIs and learned that the same regions in the brain that light when we are happy or sad light up in a dog's brain. In general it is not difficult for humans to gauge the emotional state of many mammals and many trainers become so proficient in understanding the behavior of certain species that are able to read the minutest of behavioral signs.


    There have been only three recorded wolf-related deaths in the history of the United States. Not to mention that depriving a predatory species of their prey is literally the worst thing you can do, as you will just drive them to desperation.

    Actually posted on these forums a while ago was a study that found that when you shoot wolves you actually increase predation because you shatter the pack structure and create lone wolves that have to rely on simple livestock kills to survive.
    And we have a study here in Europe that found out that hunters shoot a lot more than a wolf could ever hunt. Reducing the wolf population in terms of trying to get more red deer doesn't work. Shooting wolves only makes sense if they come to close to sheep farms or human settlements, otherwise it's stupid.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    It's never cruelty free. That's the thing. You still end up killing the animal for your own good. We don't have the space to raise all the meat needed to feed the world in an humanly way. Nor the space to milk enough cows to provide the whole world. If everything was good in the world and we could just snap fingers and suddenly there is no pollution problem, no space problem of any kind and all animals just live their life peacefully. A lot of vegans wouldn't mind eating eggs that were just laid there by free chicken, but it's not case at all. You do realize that to get milk you need to force a cow into pregnancy right? And that the milk you're taking is meant for the baby?

    There is no way to make this all cruelty free. You're just grasping at straws and acting like a cocky 12 year old who think he is oh so fucking smart.
    You've moved the goalposts - it's trivially easy to produce cruelty-free eggs and oysters. This isn't actually debatable. Refusing to eat this products is a quasi-religious devotion to an untenable philosophical position.

    I appreciate you noticing how smart I am though!

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    What do you think the "natural state" of the Great Plains is?
    Ffs read my post and don't cherrypick things you don't like. I said lot of not all and I said 87 percent of agricultured land is used for livestock. They get fed almost a 90 percent on crops and that's a fact.
    Bringing up one fucking example, when I even said there is grazable land used for livestock, makes me think you only read the last sentence.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    You've moved the goalposts - it's trivially easy to produce cruelty-free eggs and oysters. This isn't actually debatable. Refusing to eat this products is a quasi-religious devotion to an untenable philosophical position.

    I appreciate you noticing how smart I am though!
    Yeah sure Napoleon Dynamite.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    And we have a study here in Europe that found out that hunters shoot a lot more than a wolf could ever hunt. Reducing the wolf population in terms of trying to get more red deer doesn't work. Shooting wolves only makes sense if they come to close to sheep farms or human settlements, otherwise it's stupid.
    Additionally there are methods to inspire fear in predatory animals here in the US. One of the methods used by rangers is called "treeing". Training dogs to bark aggressively at black bears and cougars while making loud noises and shooting them with white paintballs until they flee (usually up a tree).

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    Maybe you should educate yourself
    I realize I could amend the post to clarify the question and reduce confusion, but honestly this has turned out to be a great way to get volunteers for my ignore list.

    So, it's a bit of a wash.
    The reports of my death were surprisingly well-sourced and accurate.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    Ffs read my post and don't cherrypick things you don't like. I said lot of not all and I said 87 percent of agricultured land is used for livestock. They get fed almost a 90 percent on crops and that's a fact.
    Bringing up one fucking example, when I even said there is grazable land used for livestock, makes me think you only read the last sentence.
    I read the post, I just thought it was generally stupid, and it was easiest to notice in the appeal to nature that you closed with.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    You've moved the goalposts - it's trivially easy to produce cruelty-free eggs and oysters. This isn't actually debatable. Refusing to eat this products is a quasi-religious devotion to an untenable philosophical position.

    I appreciate you noticing how smart I am though!
    It's not hard to produce cruelty free eggs or milk, the issue arises with males and females that are too old to produce sufficient eggs/milk. They're simply shipped out to an industrialized slaughterhouse, essentially making the whole prospect of ethical agriculture null.

    With oysters and bivalves, it's less problematic because they don't feel pain, but as someone who lives in proximity to the Chesapeake Bay, I can tell you that when you remove enough of oysters, it can be really bad for the ecosystem and general quality of the water.

    Eggs and milk are actually something very interesting because unlike conventional meat which has a likely alternative in cultured meat, there really aren't any genuinely dairy alternatives to milk and eggs. You have soy milk and I've heard about vegan eggs, but those aren't really milk or eggs in the sense that cultured meat would still biologically be meat.
    Last edited by Techno-Druid; 2018-06-17 at 09:03 PM.

  14. #174
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Texas(I wish it were CO)
    Posts
    7,512
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Know what a good reason not to be a vegan is?

    Understanding that a plant-heavy diet is a luxury in modern times, and that not every arable area is suited to crops.
    What exactly do you think cows eat? I'll give you a hint: It isn't meat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I'd counter that with the question as to why pro-life people continue to eat meat.
    That’s an easy one. Human existence is predicated on the taking of life whether plant or animal. I accept that, but it doesn’t mean I go out of my way to kill things I will not eat. That human beings are a special exception to this basic fact of life is because we value human life above all other forms of life on this planet. Whether it’s a conscious valuation or not, it’s the reason there are special rules regarding the taking of human life. That some could take this basic valuation and generalize it to other living things shouldn’t be surprising.

    And to forestall a particular counter to this argument, yes that means I think that killing/murder are at times moral and ethical. It’s intrinsically human.
    Last edited by D3thray; 2018-06-17 at 09:20 PM.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I read the post, I just thought it was generally stupid, and it was easiest to notice in the appeal to nature that you closed with.
    Then give me reasons why it's stupid? I have a background in lifestock production, veterinary medicine and conservation medicine. I'd really like to hear your "alternative" facts.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    What exactly do you think cows eat? I'll give you a hint: It isn't meat.
    Should we eat the same as the cows?

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Cake mix is a cake, apparently.

    Lol.
    Just my thoughts on the analogy;
    I think it would be more akin the having the cake mix prepared and in the oven at that point, the mixing of the ingredients is 100% done.

  19. #179
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    USA, Ohio
    Posts
    24,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Denning View Post
    Dunno why they wouldn't comment. All you have to say in such a situation is that human life doesn't begin at the point of conception.
    It actually does. All the building blocks are there at conception to start a new journey as a human being. It is life.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    Then give me reasons why it's stupid? I have a background in lifestock production, veterinary medicine and conservation medicine. I'd really like to hear your "alternative" facts.
    Stupid things from that post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    This maybe applies to parts of Africa and maybe "small" parts of the USA...
    Lands suitable for grazing without ecological damage aren't "small" parts of the United States. Vast swaths of the country have been used for grazing prior to humans. In the present, the concept of regenerative agriculture weds grazing herds with sustainable plant growth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    Btw a lot of that "grazable" land was deforestated for livestock.
    This is either tangential or stupid, I'm not sure which. The reality is that the population and production in the United States have exploded while forestation levels have remained largely unchanged over the past century.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    If they wouldn't have livestock grazing on it, it would get back to it's natural state.
    This is stupid because it's just the naturalistic fallacy with no actual substance behind it.

    Not bothering to account for unintended consequences of any massive shifts towards plant-based diets is also pretty stupid, but I guess I don't know if you've thought about it much. To be fair, you're not really obligated to write at any sort of length about these sorts of things on a forum, but that initial post really was pretty stupid.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •