Raiding and M+ are NOT the same content. They need to stop treating it as such.

[Shakou]

i believe he is talking about azerite gear, which will only drop in raids/weekly chests/mythic 0.

NOT true. Loot scales in BFA m+ just like Legion, only Azerite gear doesn't titanforge, it still drops in dungeons including m+, it'll just cap from M+ drops to about heroic raid level. You can only get the *highest I lvl* Azerite gear from Mythic raids and your weekly cache (if you completed a 15, or probably a 10 for the first raid).

[Jastall]

I thought I saw it dropping from daily quests and heroics... will have to double check the beta tonight.

They mean in M+. M+ end of run chests cannot drop Azerite gear as I understand it, it can only drop from the end of week chest. Normal, heroic and M+0 dungeons drop Azerite gear the old fashioned way.

[Shakou]

They mean in M+. M+ end of run chests cannot drop Azerite gear as I understand it, it can only drop from the end of week chest. Normal, heroic and M+0 dungeons drop Azerite gear the old fashioned way.

You misunderstood it. You can get Azerite gear from any dungeon, you can only get the highest I lvl azerite gear from your m+ cache (if you completed the highest lvl key for loot) and mythic raids.

[Nutrition]

They mean in M+. M+ end of run chests cannot drop Azerite gear as I understand it, it can only drop from the end of week chest. Normal, heroic and M+0 dungeons drop Azerite gear the old fashioned way.

Ah did not know that... it seems a rather bizzare change to have. I can't see a purpose to it.

[Sunslayer]

M+ is actually challenging content. I haven't raided Mythic, and honestly I'm not addressing Mythic. However I did raid Heroic and it was a total joke. I took 6 months off, came back and marched through Antorus Heroic in out-dated gear. Raiding isn't what it was, it's pretty faceroll now (outside of Mythic).

[Jastall]

You misunderstood it. You can get Azerite gear from any dungeon, you can only get the highest I lvl azerite gear from your m+ cache (if you completed the highest lvl key for loot) and mythic raids.

Hm, what I understood is that Ion said all high-level Azerite gear is gated in such a way for all content. In raids it is the obvious one lockout/week, in PvP Azerite gear is going to be awarded by the Conquest weekly drop, and in M+ via the end of week chest instead of the infinitely repeatable runs.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

[Onikaroshi]

Hm, what I understood is that Ion said all high-level Azerite gear is gated in such a way for all content. In raids it is the obvious one lockout/week, in PvP Azerite gear is going to be awarded by the Conquest weekly drop, and in M+ via the end of week chest instead of the infinitely repeatable runs.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

No, you're right, I went back and listened to it and he said, basically, purple azerite gear will be weekly locked, you won't get it from the end of dungeon chest, but the weekly chest.

So raids, conquest, mythic dungeons and the mythic+ weekly chest.

[Deleted]

Once again unpopular opinion, but I completely dislike people who login for raid, then logout and are never to be seen. Yes we all put together the same hours in killing the boss, but as a community/guild you dont grow. The players' skill also becomes stagnant compared to pushing yourself in m+ or exploring the world continueously via WQs. Again, its not about having to do 50 dailies or 10 m+ a day, but still do some activities that keep you engaged in the game.

Sorry, but I call bullshit. WQ actively reduce player skill of anyone involved, and m+ is just too different from raids. You get about the same practice as in trash clear runs. Interrupts are the only thing that is remotely applicable to raiding, and even then, it's not really the same.

OT, I always advocate for more variety, but in case of raiding and m+, they are too entwined. I like the approach of GW2 to fractals (basically their version of m+). To do higher levels, you need agony resist, and to get agony resist, you need to do fractals. So it's a progression system that is contained within the activity itself.

[Jastall]

Sorry, but I call bullshit. WQ actively reduce player skill of anyone involved, and m+ is just too different from raids. You get about the same practice as in trash clear runs. Interrupts are the only thing that is remotely applicable to raiding, and even then, it's not really the same.

OT, I always advocate for more variety, but in case of raiding and m+, they are too entwined. I like the approach of GW2 to fractals (basically their version of m+). To do higher levels, you need agony resist, and to get agony resist, you need to do fractals. So it's a progression system that is contained within the activity itself.

Every other person I've seen talk about GW2's system complained that it was incredibly grindy. Besides, I don't like segregating progression like that. A geared, skilled raider should be able to jump into moderately high M+ and do well, a good M+ runner should be able to jump into Heroic or early Mythic and be bale to perform. None of that ''well grind M+ X times before you the gear to resist the higher levels!'', that sounds awful.

[Shakou]

No, you're right, I went back and listened to it and he said, basically, purple azerite gear will be weekly locked, you won't get it from the end of dungeon chest, but the weekly chest.

So raids, conquest, mythic dungeons and the mythic+ weekly chest.

His answer was confusing:

How competitive is gear from Mythic Keystones intended to be? Will Azerite effects scale up when it drops in higher Keystone?

Similar to how Legion played out. A Mythic 10 will reward the best possible loot -- about a Heroic Uldir quality item. The weekly chest will unlock a Mythic Uldir quality item.

The power of the Azerite effect is proportional to the item level of the item. Once you get past Blue-quality Azerite Armor, all sources of Azerite Armor are from some form of locked content - from raids, Weekly Conquest Reward and Weekly Mythic+ chest.
I can understand how people would react to this if they're not on Beta, but if you are his statement needs clarification.

He said once you get past Blue-quality Azerite Armor, as in once you get purples then you will only get upgrades from those sources. I can confirm that you definitely are not going to roll into Uldir with blue quality Azerite gear unless you have bad luck with drops or you just don't run Mythic dungeons before it opens. I also took this to mean that Ion is horrible at communication because unless M+ has a modified loot table or there are things on beta that are not planned to even be on live it definitely drops Azerite gear.

I need to actually do my Keystone on Beta though so I can further clarify. But honestly if those pieces aren't even dropping that's really awful because it will mean that M+ will have really small loot tables, that people will quickly get burned out from running them, that most classes won't get any benefit of running most m+ dungeons so will target only the ones that drop their best loot (even moreso than today), and that the best Azerite gear you'll be able to get if you don't raid is 340 I lvl from reg mythic dungeons.

I think Ion was just being retarded cuz that system makes no sense and doesn't line up with current beta.

[lappee]

There are a few ways to interpret what Ion says:

1) Run M+ infinitely, get Heroic raid quality (ilvl) loot from end chests, get Mythic raid quality (ilvl) loot from weekly M+ chest (includes Azerite armor being at that ilvl). This is where he mixes either "locked content" or armor quality in "blues or purples"

2) M+ doesn't give infinite loot (has loot lockouts) and thus everything that drops purple quality Azerite armor is on a lockout (which would be fair when comparing M+ and Heroic raids). However Ion only mentions M+ weekly cache in the end, nobody knows what Ion missed/fucked up.

[exochaft]

M+ is actually challenging content. I haven't raided Mythic, and honestly I'm not addressing Mythic. However I did raid Heroic and it was a total joke. I took 6 months off, came back and marched through Antorus Heroic in out-dated gear. Raiding isn't what it was, it's pretty faceroll now (outside of Mythic).

Well, the real difference between high level mythic+ and mythic raiding is accessibility, not necessarily the difficulty at a certain point. Only reason I don't hardcore mythic raid anymore is because my schedule doesn't accommodate it... doesn't help that mythic raiding is still raid ID locked and realm-only, which would actually allow me to mythic raid again regularly if they weren't (but "server identity", yay...). All those negatives of mythic raiding are not a problem with mythic+, since it's cross-realm and pretty flexible in terms of time commitment. I'd rather the difficulty of the actual content weed out the players, not artificially imposed barriers to entry. There's a lot mythic raiding could incorporate from mythic+ in terms of accessibility, yet still allow them to be two separate ways to viably gear up. All that being said, I really hope Blizz doesn't make a mistake with the Azerite gear (and weapons/trinkets) by making one form of gear progression completely superior to the other based on drops alone. The removal of tier gear (while I harbored mixed feelings about its removal) was one step in the direction of making both mythic raiding and mythic+ more equal... but they could completely undo it with Azerite gear (and weapons/trinkets).

[Onikaroshi]

There are a few ways to interpret what Ion says:

1) Run M+ infinitely, get Heroic raid quality (ilvl) loot from end chests, get Mythic raid quality (ilvl) loot from weekly M+ chest (includes Azerite armor being at that ilvl). This is where he mixes either "locked content" or armor quality in "blues or purples"

2) M+ doesn't give infinite loot (has loot lockouts) and thus everything that drops purple quality Azerite armor is on a lockout (which would be fair when comparing M+ and Heroic raids). However Ion only mentions M+ weekly cache in the end, nobody knows what Ion missed/fucked up.

What we can grasp outside of azerite gear is that other gear will function generally the same, a +10 will give you heroic ilvl loot, and that's heroic raid