They need a better class design team ASAP

[shaunika123]

Wanna know why tbc/wotlk was the golden age? Because every piece of gear meant something, guilds disbanded over gear, people paid real money for gear, the game was a grind for GEAR.

now fresh 110 (boosted) is full 930 from AH and ready for antorus

yeah cos you totally couldnt farm SSC/TK level gear from pvp and justice points towards the end right? >_>
also having to grind through 1.5 years of content to catch up is not really a good thing.
nor does it have anything to do with class design for that matter

- - - Updated - - -

PS. Class designed peaked in MoP.

not for rogues definitely

in fact it was one of our weakest expansions in terms of class design, it was a definite step back from cata.

[PrairieChicken]

You should google what an MMORPG is.


PS. Class designed peaked in MoP.

I would say WoD had best class design, MoP gave too much kits to almost all the classes.

WoD took all the "meat" of the MoP design while removing the inflation arms race

[Varolyn]

You should google what an MMORPG is.


PS. Class designed peaked in MoP.

I actually think MoP has become a bit overrated in terms of class design over the years. I mean, it was good (would take it over what we have in BfA any day) but I think blizz went too crazy on homogenization that made too many classes feel the same. I actually like WotlK class design overall as it was the last expansion where you could be a little creative with talents and it was the first expansion where hybrids could actually compete on a consistent basis. And yeah all three rogue specs played way too similar to one another in pve and it made the class a bit stale.


But like I said, I would take MoP class design over BfA honestly this is the first expansion I've been tentative about.

[shaunika123]

And yeah all three rogue specs played way too similar to one another in pve and it made the class a bit stale.

arbitrarily forcing differences onto the three rogue specs was one of the bigger pitfalls of legion, and it's now affecting BFA as well

they took a bunch of stuff all 3 of them had and just distributed them "evenly" between the 3 specs making all 3 of them feel less complete in the process.

gouge is one of the most iconic rogue abilities ever and now it's stuck to fucking outlaw. like what the fuck.

rogue has been the best desiged class since the game began basically, which is why it never really needed a rework.
the only reason it got one in legion was because "omg legion is a major class rework expansion we HAVE to change rogues now", so they just changed them for the sake of change.

admittedly they did give us some interesting stuff (like making it so not only one of our specs was viable for AOE) but most of it was forced and unnecessary.

seriously, just give me back gouge on all 3 specs.

[Charge me Doctor]

Im baffled as to why they just didn't take what was good in Legion from the artifacts and leggos and throw them into a new tree at 110. As for the Az armor I will agree, from what they released its a shit system and considering the raid set hasnt even been shown yet makes me think that it was just as bad as the oter sets so those itself are getting reworked..

Because it would be the same - blizzard taking something away from you and put it 100ft away for you to run towards. It's the same thing. That you used to have. Now you have to progress towards the same thing. Imagine your gear from raids expiring in a week and you would need to raid again to get exactly same pieces? It's not fun when things are taken away from you, it even less fun when things that have been taken away are reintroduced as "new", "choice" or something to "work towards".

[Varolyn]

arbitrarily forcing differences onto the three rogue specs was one of the bigger pitfalls of legion, and it's now affecting BFA as well

they took a bunch of stuff all 3 of them had and just distributed them "evenly" between the 3 specs making all 3 of them feel less complete in the process.

gouge is one of the most iconic rogue abilities ever and now it's stuck to fucking outlaw. like what the fuck.

I was talking more about the pve rotation and not the utility stuff. Like thoughout mop, all three specs maintained SnD, maintained rupture (optional for combat), use one of two fillers, dump extra cps into evis/env etc. and there wasn't much other stuff baked into rogues that really made any of the specs play any different for a raid. But blizz did a good job fixing this in WoD where all three specs played different enough with the perks they got while they all got to keep the same utility. But then blizz took a lot of that utility away and scrambled it around in legion for really no reason at all since I thought all three rogue specs were defined in WoD unlike what they were in MoP.

[shaunika123]

I was talking more about the pve rotation and not the utility stuff. Like thoughout mop, all three specs maintained SnD, maintained rupture (optional for combat), use one of two fillers, dump extra cps into evis/env etc. and there wasn't much other stuff baked into rogues that really made any of the specs play any different for a raid. But blizz did a good job fixing this in WoD where all three specs played different enough with the perks they got while they all got to keep the same utility. But then blizz took a lot of that utility away and scrambled it around in legion for really no reason at all since I thought all three rogue specs were defined in WoD unlike what they were in MoP.

but that's just false also.

all 3 specs played out very differently in cata-wod, only on the surface level were they similar.


yes you did all that. but with assa you played a debuff/buff weaving short cycle rotation (and you didnt even need to maintain SND fyi envenoms refreshed it) based around frequent energy/CP pooling.

with sub you played around big cooldowns and preparing and executing them for the maximum effect carefully managing your long term debuffs and buffs

and with combat you played around bandit's guile which was basically a ramp up mechanic that you could more or less control, and it was also the spec where you had barely any downtime.

they were different enough.
specs dont need to be vastly different from one another to the point where they're barely the same class.

what changed exactly?

for outlaw they renamed slice and dice to RTB and made it the same thing just with tons of RNG and just outright removed rupture
for assa it's the same shit basically with an extra mini CD
for sub they renamed rupture to nightblade and changed slice and dice (an ability you press once every 30 seconds) to symbols of death (and ability you press once every 30 seconds)

wow, such innovation, they're so much different now O_o

[Charge me Doctor]

Sorry, and calm down, sheesh.
I'm talking about the typical anti-prune argument; how you've suggested adding a talent row among a few things and that would solve numerous problems. I disagree.
WoW has long gone away from the idea of "building up" and instead "reinvents and reiterates." I'm no designer but it's not difficult to see that expanding on talent rows/abilities eventually leads to a conundrum of continuing to make rotations work, full knowing that with something added it risks devaluing the whole formula.

I agree that WoW is already too big for expanding further, but when they take something away from players they should immediately replace it if they don't want to piss players off (off course there is a chance that they know that and are ready to take this risk, so they'll have room to improve later. Or, seeing what they've done in BfA, i'm sincerely afraid that they'll just add old things as new things and players will praise them for it.).

When people here yell that specs are broken, they don't mean that they do not work, they mean that they are less fun to play than they were in legion. You know when people complain about some DLCs that "we pay for more of the same"? With what i've seen on BfA beta we'll be paying for "less of the same", and not in a sense that there will be something to replace old stuff, there will be just less stuff. Less buttons to press, less ways to generate resources, less options to make decisions.

[Varolyn]

but that's just false also.

all 3 specs played out very differently in cata-wod, only on the surface level were they similar.


yes you did all that. but with assa you played a debuff/buff weaving long term sustained rotation (and you didnt even need to maintain SND fyi envenoms refreshed it)
with sub you played around big cooldowns and preparing and executing them
and with combat you played around bandit's guile which was basically the combination of the previous though things in a new way.

they were different enough.
specs dont need to be vastly different from one another to the point where they're barely the same class.

I mean, they renamed rupture to nightblade and slice and dice to symbols of death and it's basically the same thing.
that's the new "revolutionary" changing the specs to be different.

they're just as similar as they were, they just feel shittier now.

Idk, envenom pooling wasn't really a big deal at all in MoP. Same goes for bandit's guile, especially with that Assurance of Consequence trinket in SoO. I'll admit I didn't really play sub much in MoP but the barely anyone did in pve at the time almost everyone was switching between combat or assassination. But they did fix this in WoD. They added that perk for envenom to make pooling more meaningful, and the guaranteed crit for vendetta to add a bit of a save up element for assassination. And they buffed up bandit's guile to make worthwhile for combat so you could save your killing spree for those huge AoE pulls. And Sub got a soft revamp with the whole multi-strike mechanic it had.


This is just my opinion but I felt rogues were at their best in WoD in terms of design and T18 was the best set ever for them.

[shaunika123]

Idk, envenom pooling wasn't really a big deal at all in MoP. Same goes for bandit's guile, especially with that Assurance of Consequence trinket in SoO. I'll admit I didn't really play sub much in MoP but the barely anyone did in pve at the time almost everyone was switching between combat or assassination. But they did fix this in WoD. They added that perk for envenom to make pooling more meaningful, and the guaranteed crit for vendetta to add a bit of a save up element for assassination. And they buffed up bandit's guile to make worthwhile for combat so you could save your killing spree for those huge AoE pulls. And Sub got a soft revamp with the whole multi-strike mechanic it had.


This is just my opinion but I felt rogues were at their best in WoD in terms of design and T18 was the best set ever for them.

ironically that multistrike mechanic was the one thing I loathed entirely about WoD sub, it was super counterintuitive to the spec.

but yeah in terms of class design they didnt fundamentally change from MoP to WoD, they just got little perks here and there.

I think that WoD was definitely one of the better places for the class and I wouldnt argue anyone that says it was the best, but If I'm honest I liked cata sub and post 7.2 sub more than WoD sub, cata sub because it was just more complex and intricate, and post 7.2 legion sub because it could actually do great AOE, still had the same "burst preparation" playstyle it had in WoD just more frequently AND I could finally use DFA which is to this day the coolest thing rogues had ever had.

altough I'd take outlaw any day over combat, even with all its faults. old combat was just cancer

[SoulSoBreezy]

I agree that WoW is already too big for expanding further, but when they take something away from players they should immediately replace it if they don't want to piss players off (off course there is a chance that they know that and are ready to take this risk, so they'll have room to improve later. Or, seeing what they've done in BfA, i'm sincerely afraid that they'll just add old things as new things and players will praise them for it.).

When people here yell that specs are broken, they don't mean that they do not work, they mean that they are less fun to play than they were in legion. You know when people complain about some DLCs that "we pay for more of the same"? With what i've seen on BfA beta we'll be paying for "less of the same", and not in a sense that there will be something to replace old stuff, there will be just less stuff. Less buttons to press, less ways to generate resources, less options to make decisions.

Which makes me wonder what's with the argument that the artifact gave a semblance of choice? Relic choice had a non zero impact but I think that's a stretch. Artifacts were no different from WoD perks - an automatic thing you got - only difference was that with Artifacts there was a clicking mechanism to it.
When I look at the expansion of things moving from Legion to BfA, I see it as no less of an upgrade and QoL improvement. 6-12 unique and/or stackable traits that are gained by drops, most of which we can target and farm for. You say that classes in beta are less fun to play than they were in Legion, but there's another narrative out there that screamed over their spec's dependence on Legendaries, Titanforging and other items.
We lose a button. Without question. But between all 36 specs, not all buttons were created equal.

In short, it's the same song. Critics of this type just don't like change. I'm not dismissing that critique at all, but it's no different from any other period since the transition from LK to Cataclysm, where LK had so much brought in, the conversation at that time was homogenization.

[Charge me Doctor]

That's all you've got? Catchphrases and hamfisted opinions?
There's no going around the fact that pruning happened. I'm not denying that, but I'll reiterate - Since maybe Cataclysm WoW has shifted from adding to reinventing: moving stuff around, retiring abilities, creating modular (and removable) systems and so on.
It's not perfect, but Blizzard's approach is (as they've been saying) about the long term health of the game and not the short term satisfaction of having this cool new button to press.

And i wholeheartedly agree, but their approach is really weird, lets look at fire mage talents and how blizzard treated them for BfA:
Lets assume that blizzard goes by its word and talents are indeed there to provide options, that you should have a choice in here
And i'll try to generally talk about it and keep it short
Level 15 live
Huge problem here is that talents are incomparable to each other, one of 3 talents is such a bad talent that it breaks the flow of your character (you end up either munching procs, or interrupting your own casts to benefit from it) and there are two passive "damage" talents in two different forms - one being a weak DoT effect (less than 1% of ST, about 1,8% on AoE from my experience), other being a way to start your combustion window with an extra pyroblast proc reliably, which is a very lazy and uninspired talent.
What did they do in BfA?
They left weird talent that breaks the flow in the game, they left uninspired talent for better opening in the game, they buffed and moved away weak DoT effect and put an equip effect of a mandatory legendary item instead. So, remember that "cool thing" that was mandatory to keep your speak afloat in raids? You have an option to have that back!

Level 30 live
No choice there, Shimmer is hands down best option here. Two blinks that don't interrupt or impede anything are just too good compared to shield replenishment (you know, that shield that pops immediately when you take damage? You can replenish it if it happens that it didn't go off entirely with a single hit! But only if you deal damage in melee. And off course you can't go over allowed threshold of virtually nothing) and... blast wave.
What did they do in BfA?
Reworked shield talent so you apply a shield every time you blink (doesn't matter because we lost healing from blink that we used to have and are upset about it. This talent option feels like an insult at this point, because it should be baseline, because we just had a baseline heal from blink, it was needed and its gone now and mage again is the only spec without any healing. And blast wave now knocks back... again... like it used to couple of expansions ago. Doesn't matter anyways, because shimmer is too good and wasn't nerfed or made baseline.

Level 45 live
Pick the way you are going to boost your damage. It just happens that there is a right answer to this talent row. One that both significantly boosts your damage output compared to others, that gives you control over your damage output, adds to the gameplay. And two others, one being passive, other being fire-and-forget. Great design.
What did they do in BfA?
Nothing. Apparently blizzard doesn't see a problem with this talent row and don't want to change it.

Level 60 live
How you generate your pyroblast procs
It's an interesting tier, but all of choices are passive, one is an obvious winner because it works all the time. Two others are problematic, one of them is random heating up into Pyroblast! conversion, which breaks the flow and makes you interrupt your casts and is unpredictable, other being worth it only with legendary helmet
What did they do in BfA?
Removed talent that procs randomly and breaks the flow (tank god!) and replaced it with new and exciting... weaker version of an ability that you had for free in legion. I understand that they designed whole spec around having it, but maybe, just maybe, it's time to redesign spec, if the ability you've been designing spec around is gone now? Instead of adding it as a "choice"? And deliberately weakening it, so the "choice" will appear fair? At least cut off 10 seconds from its recharge, and for gods sake, give legendary helmet effect to alexstrasza's fury already, they work so well together its painful to see these two separated.

Level 75 live
Nothing to talk about
What did they do in BfA?
Nothing changed

Level 90 live
Active talent for AoE (while also being a cool looking and interesting ability), passive AoE talent that also works on single target (see a problem here?), passive AoE talent that boosts an AoE ability.
There is no choice, for ST you pick UM, for adds and AoE you pick living bomb. Having your flamestrike add a DoT effect isn't fun and isn't even effective most of the time because of weird balancing.
What did they do in BfA?
Replaced UM (hooray!) with another version of UM (ohhhhh). Problem is, that UM (chance that your fireball explodes and deals damage to target + everyone else) and conflagration (fireball puts a DoT on target, enemies affected by said DoT or Ignite have a chance to explode and deal damage to everyone else) are same abilities. While i do like the idea and implementation of conflagration, i shouldn't have to give up on actually interesting ability like living bomb
Level 100 live
Interesting tier with actually two options to go for - both kindling and meteor (only with RoP, even better with on-use trinkets) are interesting choice (kindling kinda falling off "interesting" side towards "it's a fucking passive that reduces cooldown of an ability), while cinderstorm is my favorite - it's just not viable. It has way too short cooldown and while it does deals more damage against Ignited targets it doesn't matter, because even farting into general enemy direction puts them on fire. It simply doesn't fit well into rotation and doesn't work with core mechanic in fire mage - generating more pyroblasts (or making them more powerful).
What did they do in BfA?
Removed cinderstorm and replaced it with legendary bracer effect that used to be mandatory (while actually i'm very happy for this tier, because hardcasting pyroblast on RoP, with combustion on is THE BEST. Seeing a 10mil pyroblast land on someones face and spread 2mil ignite around is too awesome to skip)
So, basically, nothing changed and now i just have to pick meteor OR pyroblast hardcast, while i used to have both

[Duridi]

Besides Demonolgy or survival, are any specs actually better going from Legion to BfA?

Balance is working really well. Resto aren't any less either imo, though would say that one is more even to what it was in Legion.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Talent talk

It's why I'm not fond of this talent row system at all; well I never was.
The old talent tree was arguably worse and like the current talent row system, it was even less sustainable long term.

I'd want to see a sort of "mini tree" system that allowed for modular sub specs but there's no way I can easily describe it in a post. I'd just like to see something else in a future expansion.

[Kithelle]

Remember patches like these?
*Stromstrike has a new icon

- - - Updated - - -



One thing that annoys me the most is that you have no choice in your azerite gear. Who cares if it will have set bonus like effect if i can't even respec my gear piece (while i could respect and get a different bonus from tier set) and if i don't have a fucking choice on this matter (unless they do a 180° on what they've shown us in current azerite gear, that there is 1 perk per spec and there is 0 reasons to pick, say, enhancement perk if you play elemental)

Yeah...so great...just what Enhancement needed!

[Charge me Doctor]

Which makes me wonder what's with the argument that the artifact gave a semblance of choice? Relic choice had a non zero impact but I think that's a stretch. Artifacts were no different from WoD perks - an automatic thing you got - only difference was that with Artifacts there was a clicking mechanism to it.
When I look at the expansion of things moving from Legion to BfA, I see it as no less of an upgrade and QoL improvement. 6-12 unique and/or stackable traits that are gained by drops, most of which we can target and farm for. You say that classes in beta are less fun to play than they were in Legion, but there's another narrative out there that screamed over their spec's dependence on Legendaries, Titanforging and other items.
We lose a button. Without question. But between all 36 specs, not all buttons were created equal.

In short, it's the same song. Critics of this type just don't like change. I'm not dismissing that critique at all, but it's no different from any other period since the transition from LK to Cataclysm, where LK had so much brought in, the conversation at that time was homogenization.

I disagree that artifact gave any sort of choice. It gave choice during leveling but that's it. Artifact was simply an extension of your character, it was part of your spec, you was supposed to wear and your spec was designed around you wearing it and upgrading to 100%. Your character without artifact was as complete as level 110 who didn't pick a single talent. So when blizzard took away artifact what was left of a spec is an empty husk, underdeveloped character, it's like you are leveling your toon once again, with missing abilities, passives and such, except you know that they are not going back, you know that this is what you're stuck with.

Azerite gear (if you are refering to it) give 1 new perk that hardly affect your gameplay (extra damage on main DoT for example, or random free Slam proc for arms warrior) per piece, and there is 3 pieces. You see, azerite gear won't replace artifact weapon, legendaries, etc, it simply too small to do that. Instead of redesigning all specs (yes, i do realize that it's a lot of work) so they would be interesting without artifacts and legendaries, they decided to redesign them and make them barely interesting.

[lockybalboa]

Zero (one, arguably) on my fire mage.
15:
Firestarter - decent for opening, but in both raids and dungeons its window of opportunity is very small, due to... you know, everyone popping their coolies and taking these 10% away in a matter of seconds, dungeon mobs not having much HP. It's kinda good when leveling, because you can guarantee yourself at least 1 pyro per fireblast on every mob.
Pyromaniac - breaks the flow completely, makes you munch heating up procs, not worth picking at all. Why it even exists?
Searing Touch - execute talent that grants me undoubtedly best mobility (remember lightningbolt-on-the-move elemental shamans? Or MoP scorch magi? Yeah, that kind) and damage output (you generate hot streaks almost for free and all the time, while keeping damage of your "new" execute filler on par with "old" one, 44% vs 59% SP, for remaining 30% of the fight, compared to firestarter - only first 10%, you crit only with your main damage ability and filler (which you don't even use during opening, because you have combustion up, your crit is 100% anyways and you don't use fireball))

30:
Blazing soul - with loss of blink-heal and blizzard realizing how broken (aka - not working) previous iteration of this talent was, new iteration is just poor mans version of artifact perk we used to have (you know, that actually healed us, instead of giving a negligible shield with 10% physical damage reduction). I would say it's an obvious choice for solo content when you have to face tank something, because magi, once again, have no access to any heal.
Shimmer - two blinks instead of one, usable while casting your 6 seconds pyroblast, doesn't proc and isn't affected by GCD, IMO blizzards attempt at boil the frog and remove blinking stuns and it worked so well. Haven't seen a mage not using shimmer during whole legion.
Blast wave - yay pvp talent, why is it even here? Isn't there a pvp talent tree? Fucking fireball worth of AoE damage with a weak knockback and slow (to be fair, it could be used in M+, but i don't see how giving up on shimmer and, basically, being immune to anything thrown on the ground is worth it.

45:
Incanter's Flow - boring passive talent for movement-heavy fights, provides less damage than "proper" talent of this tier
Mirror Image - fluff talent (tho, with changes to threat it may be useful again? I mean, if you don't want to get mauled by a pack of mobs on pull you kinda have to use it)
Rune of Power - big damage talent, not picking this hurts your overall damage

60:
Flame on - a talent that allows you to throw more pyroblasts in the long run
Alexstrasza's Fury - makes DB into a good damaging ability for mythic dungeons, deals about 20% more damage than a single phoenix flame
Phoenix Flames - again, if you don't want your fire mage to be bland you have to pick this talent. A bursty option for AoE (whooping 90 seconds recharge time on all 3 stacks, a reminder - we lost an artifact trait that used to reset charges of PF when fools burned) AND an ability to generate more pyroblasts during combustion (120 seconds CD, lines up almost perfectly, leaving you with spare charge to throw at a random pack for lots of yellow numbers on screen)

75:
Frenetic Speed - since blizzard kinda established Searing Touch as our must have talent - missing on extra 30% movement speed is like shooting yourself in the leg.
Ice Ward - I smell PvP. Or extremely unlikely (and unreliable) way to allow tank to kite mobs (because nova will break immediately from DoT effects, like, you know, ignite). Or it's a great talent to kill your wife who plays feral druid and stands in bunch of mobs when tank kites them on necrotic week. Just press nova, ice ward, nova again and mobs melee her to death because they can't reach top-on-the-aggro-list person and look for next on aggro table who is reachable. Fun times. Much pain.
Ring of Frost - I smell PvP. Breaks on damage, can't imagine a situation where it's even usable.

90:
Flame Patch - a "flamestrike has better priority now and remember guys when it was worth hardcasting flamestrike in m+? Hilarious, right?"
Conflagration - a passive talent
Living Bomb - an active talent
Fully depends on how blizzard will tune these talents damage, all of them are AoE options

100:
Kindling - good talent that may or may not reduce combustion cooldown to line up perfectly with PF recharge for sick AoE and lots of pyroblasts.
Pyroclasm - must have talent, used to be a legendary. Even better than used to be, because you can delay using it, instead of being afraid to munch it in a situation "oh shit i have 7 seconds of combustion left and can squeeze in one hardcast pyro, but my RoP expires in 3 seconds and i won't make it, i need a new one, but when i apply new one i'll stuck with just 2 seconds of combustion and won't be able to hardcast pyro, so i'll keep throwing instants and cry seeing the buff reset to 15 seconds each time i consume hot streak"
Meteor - irrelevant because of other options

There is no much of a choice here, you basically have an option to create a legion fire mage, or stay with boring version of legion fire mage with less control over pyroblast generation and buttons to press.
It's not like a spec is unplayable, it's just... the same as legion. Except less. I personally expected a least some changes.

I feel ya bro, i play a FM myself. We're fucked.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I disagree that artifact gave any sort of choice. It gave choice during leveling but that's it. Artifact was simply an extension of your character, it was part of your spec, you was supposed to wear and your spec was designed around you wearing it and upgrading to 100%. Your character without artifact was as complete as level 110 who didn't pick a single talent. So when blizzard took away artifact what was left of a spec is an empty husk, underdeveloped character, it's like you are leveling your toon once again, with missing abilities, passives and such, except you know that they are not going back, you know that this is what you're stuck with.

Azerite gear (if you are refering to it) give 1 new perk that hardly affect your gameplay (extra damage on main DoT for example, or random free Slam proc for arms warrior) per piece, and there is 3 pieces. You see, azerite gear won't replace artifact weapon, legendaries, etc, it simply too small to do that. Instead of redesigning all specs (yes, i do realize that it's a lot of work) so they would be interesting without artifacts and legendaries, they decided to redesign them and make them barely interesting.

That's where the roleplay vs. gameplay argument kicks in, one which I support. Without a doubt, the artifact is the center of character growth in Legion, so it reads as natural that there'd be things you can no longer do with it being depowered. Because the abilities are fixed, it's easy to design around.
Azerite traits potentially provide a deep, deep meta with actual choices and consequences (you've got to get the gear). Because the system also grows, any developer has to be extremely conservative about what's being introduced. We've seen numerous occasions and have seen numerous statements from Blizzard that they prefer to not nerf items in the middle of an expansion because people would feel bad.
Unfortunately (or fortunately), Blizzard hasn't planned the entire expansion's worth of Azerite traits, raid and dungeon tuning, class balance, etc ahead of time. Critics can go on and on over how uninteresting the traits are, but I challenge those critics to ask themselves what if Blizzard opted to crank things up to where a single piece of Azerite gear could fundamentally alter a spec? Would that be good? And if not, how would that be mitigated?
Calculating it in my head, I conclude that by the end of that exercise, the best idea would be to have gone a more conservative route at the start and go from there.

[AnonEntity]

They definitely need a better team. Especially the balance between classes is awful. Melee is still scaling better and working out better than caster specs. It's still a tanks and leather club for PvP.

[darklogrus]

Just relaxxxxxx guys - Ion said to wait until 8.1!

It's just alpha, It's just beta, It's just release, It's just x.1. WAIT FOR NEXT EXPAC.


The cycle continues..

I was expecting another "We don't want you to play those specs" response..

Because it would be the same - blizzard taking something away from you and put it 100ft away for you to run towards. It's the same thing. That you used to have. Now you have to progress towards the same thing. Imagine your gear from raids expiring in a week and you would need to raid again to get exactly same pieces? It's not fun when things are taken away from you, it even less fun when things that have been taken away are reintroduced as "new", "choice" or something to "work towards".

Its a better approach then whats currently happening. You are either Class A, who gets neither or you are Class B, who gets 2, 1 leggo and 1 artifact but you end up losing 2 spells in the 2 previous rows and these 2 spells are sitting in the more popular of the rows so the odds of choosing them are slim. Meanwhile going into BFA we will have neither a 110 or a 120 talent tier..