[Spoilers] Saurfang character butchered

[Combatbutler]

Attacking Astranaar, even as an Alliance beta fanboy cuck (tm), is a legitimate military target. More than Camp Taurajo. I'm curious if there are any actual quests to directly try to kill civilians, especially if Saurfang tells players to do so. If he doesn't, I find it weird people are saying that civilians dying in the attack is the same thing as Saurfang purposefully killing them.

The town was left defenseless, you sneak in with blood elf rogue from the short story wipe out the remaining guards and then the army marches in, when you talk with Saurfang for the next quest everyone is already dead and he doesn't acknowledge it in the slightest. There was literally no one left to defend the town only civilians.

[Deleted]

Its amazing to me that people still don't seem to think that Saurfang's version of honor is about honorable combat. They also seem to just take events out of chronological order and apply "fed up after Lordaeron" Saurfang's choices to, "Pre-Lordaeron" Saurfang. He expresses disdain in attacking Teldrassil, he mentions how destroying it is not honorable, and then protests Sylvanas killing her own troops.

Attacking Astranaar, even as an Alliance beta fanboy cuck (tm), is a legitimate military target. More than Camp Taurajo. I'm curious if there are any actual quests to directly try to kill civilians, especially if Saurfang tells players to do so. If he doesn't, I find it weird people are saying that civilians dying in the attack is the same thing as Saurfang purposefully killing them.

Again, its almost like people are trying to find a reason to hate him.

...for some strange and unknown reason.

Which, once again, Saurfang is wrong for once. The Horde's survival was at stake and Sylvanas managed to grasp the survival from the hands of defeat. This isn't about how Sylvanas did, it's about Saurfang wanting the defeat of himself and his own people over their survival.

[Super Dickmann]

I was referring to the fact that he does not really have an answer for Sylvanas beyond "that's not nice". When the blight is deployed and she asks "what other options do we have" he does not present any alternative, the same thing happens later after he returns from his little trip. In the dialog with Garrosh there is a back and forth, a battle of ideals. In comparison, Sylvanas simply annihilates him.

That's because her argument makes sense whereas his does not. Disregarding the moral dimension, her decision is military correct. The blight and the raised troops push Anduin back and the only reason the Alliance don't lose then and there is because Jaina shows up, something neither Saurfang, Sylvanas or Anduin could have known. Similarly, the argument he makes about rigging undercity up to blow being dishonorable also doesn't make much sense, unless honor is only about combat. In this case, only combatants are being killed and only enemy combatants at that. Sylvanas' first business is to evacuate the civilians.

[Necroxis]

The town was left defenseless, you sneak in with blood elf rogue from the short story wipe out the remaining guards and then the army marches in, when you talk with Saurfang for the next quest everyone is already dead and he doesn't acknowledge it in the slightest. There was literally no one left to defend the town only civilians.

What do you want him to do? He already has 3 moments in the introduction of BfA alone (Discussing the attack, after he lets Tyrande retreat, and in Lordearon) where he talks about the dishonor of the Horde's actions.

Having him do it a fourth time is really going to change your mind here?

He clearly didn't order the civilians to be killed. He's not boasting about it. The soldiers and town are cut down by the rogues or the army. Saurfang isn't doing it himself.

Honestly you're throwing a fit over nothing.

[Deleted]

Lol no, nowhere was it stated Garrosh was angry about wasting a bomb.

When killing the general he didn't said he was angry about that, but because it killed people couldn't fight back.

This was before Blizz decided he would get mad in Mop.

Stonetalon Peak was already admitted as a mistake from Blizzard's part. Garrosh had no problems in killing civilians.

[Necroxis]

Which, once again, Saurfang is wrong for once. The Horde's survival was at stake and Sylvanas managed to grasp the survival from the hands of defeat. This isn't about how Sylvanas did, it's about Saurfang wanting the defeat of himself and his own people over their survival.

Saurfang wanted the defeat of his people? What are you even talking about. In Astranaar he tries to delay Malfurion from effortlessly murdering MORE of his people by challenging him to a mak'gora. What do you think he's doing in Lordaeron? Just throwing his life away? He's clearly doing THE EXACT SAME THING even as Sylvanas tells him to go fuck off and die. He actively delays Anduin and his group from chasing Sylvanas and the survivors as they escape.

Also did you forget that Sylvanas started the entire sequence of events by attacking Teldrassil?

Like I said, you guys just want to hate Saurfang.

I wonder why. Hmmm.

[Super Dickmann]

Saurfang wanted the defeat of his people? What are you even talking about. In Astranaar he tries to delay Malfurion from effortlessly murdering MORE of his people by challenging him to a mak'gora. What do you think he's doing in Lordaeron? Just throwing his life away? He's clearly doing THE EXACT SAME THING even as Sylvanas tells him to go fuck off and die.

Also did you forget that Sylvanas started the entire sequence of events by attacking Teldrassil?

Like I said, you guys just want to hate Saurfang.

I wonder why. Hmmm.

The post was about Lordaeron and you spazz out about Teldrassil. I wonder why. Hmmm.

[Necroxis]

The post was about Lordaeron and you spazz out about Teldrassil. I wonder why. Hmmm.

Are you unable to comprehend that the comment that mine you're quoting here was responding to was about Teldrassil/Astranaar AND Lordaeron? Showing Saurfang's clear mentality about willing to sacrifice himself to give his people a chance to escape?

[Deleted]

Saurfang wanted the defeat of his people? What are you even talking about. In Astranaar he tries to delay Malfurion from effortlessly murdering MORE of his people by challenging him to a mak'gora. What do you think he's doing in Lordaeron? Just throwing his life away? He's clearly doing THE EXACT SAME THING even as Sylvanas tells him to go fuck off and die.

Which part you keep misunderstanding? The "Saurfang's honor is about death by combat" or that he was tactically wrong about Sylvanas' decision in Lordaeron?

Keep the emotions at side, Saurfang was pragmatically and tactically wrong. It's a war, it's not a "my honor horse is mightier than yours" competition.

[Super Dickmann]

Are you unable to comprehend that the comment that mine you're quoting here was responding to was about Teldrassil/Astranaar AND Lordaeron? Showing Saurfang's clear mentality about willing to sacrifice himself to give his people a chance to escape?

Saurfang has the moral high ground in Teldrassil, provided he's not involved in killing the civvies. When it comes to Lordaeron though, he's objectively wrong. He wouldn't even have the chance to sacrifice himself because if Sylvanas hadn't used the blight at the gates, the Alliance would have broken through. Similarly, his sacrifice at the end is equally pointless, because if he'd just left with the Horde, the trap would still have triggered and the Alliance would be caught in it. Instead, he places first his honor and then himself before the lives of the soldiers under his command.

[Necroxis]

Which part you keep misunderstanding? The "Saurfang's honor is about death by combat" or that he was tactically wrong about Sylvanas' decision in Lordaeron?

Keep the emotions at side, Saurfang was pragmatically and tactically wrong. It's a war, it's not a "my honor horse is mightier than yours" competition.

He's not the leader. What do you want him to do? Honestly, what do you want him to do?

He wouldn't even have the chance to sacrifice himself because if Sylvanas hadn't used the blight at the gates, the Alliance would have broken through.

She killed. Her own. Troops. Do you not see how some characters would have a problem with that? Even Genn and Anduin are like, "Fuck man."

Similarly, his sacrifice at the end is equally pointless, because if he'd just left with the Horde, the trap would still have triggered and the Alliance would be caught in it. Instead, he places first his honor and then himself before the Horde.

The Horde get away. What are you actually talking about here. He doesn't WANT to be with Sylvanas' Horde anymore after this moment. Did you not get that?

[Deleted]

Are you unable to comprehend that the comment that mine you're quoting here was responding to was about Teldrassil/Astranaar AND Lordaeron? Showing Saurfang's clear mentality about willing to sacrifice himself to give his people a chance to escape?

Saurfang could challange Sylvanas for a mak'gora before Teldrassil. He didn't.

[Combatbutler]

What do you want him to do? He already has 3 moments in the introduction of BfA alone (Discussing the attack, after he lets Tyrande retreat, and in Lordearon) where he talks about the dishonor of the Horde's actions.

Having him do it a fourth time is really going to change your mind here?

He clearly didn't order the civilians to be killed. He's not boasting about it. The soldiers and town are cut down by the rogues or the army. Saurfang isn't doing it himself.

Honestly you're throwing a fit over nothing.

I want him to acknowledge this, I want him to seethe about it, I want a reaction. I want consistency. None of that has happened right now, all Saurfang does is literally nothing, while an entire town and its people are wiped of the map but throws a fit if soldiers die, who by all means know how dangerous their line of work is.

And again play the ptr the rogues are not cutting down the civilians, because you personally go in with a single rogue clearing out the guards and then the army goes in.

And of course it isn't going to change my mind about a character I do not particularly like, just like any other character throwing around flimsy nonsensical stuff like, justice, honor etc. this stuff is nothing but lip service. He is preferable over the screecher as warchief, but not by much to be honest.

Call it throwing a fit over nothing, but the way I see it Saurfang has gone just typical orc honor code, meaning it is utterly meaningless and he only uses it if it suits him, much like Garrosh.

[Necroxis]

Yeah I'm out. Enjoy being outraged over nothing.

[Jester Joe]

Uh, he is suicidal, but he wants to die in battle, as his honor commands him.

So he's not suicidal then.

He wants to die in battle, like all orcs. What a shocker.

[Super Dickmann]

She killed. Her own. Troops. Do you not see how some characters would have a problem with that? Even Genn and Anduin are like, "Fuck man."

What are you on about, I already talked about how Saurfang has every reason to be upset about the plague last page. I just said that that doesn't change that he's tactically wrong and that if the blight hadn't been used, more Horde troops would have died and the battle would be lost without inflicting heavy Alliance casualties. Said dead horde troops would be those at the gates too, who were dying anyway.

The Horde get away. What are you actually talking about here. He doesn't WANT to be with Sylvanas' Horde anymore after this moment. Did you not get that?

They do get away, but no thanks to him. Sylvanas tells him that he can pick whether his honor or the survival of the Horde are more important and he chooses his honor. It's not a sacrifice, since the Horde would get away and the trap would trigger either way.

[Deleted]

Once again, because his arc about his feelings over Sylvanas' actions was literally at the very first stage, where as by the time she's killed her own people and resurrected them as her cannon fodder, he's at the end of that arc.

Which happens at different times.

So, he decides to ignore Sylvanas just like he did with Garrosh? How's that a good defense for him, when he saw the rise of Garrosh happening right in front of him?

Once again, this is about Saurfang's honor. We already have many threads about Sylvanas' evilness.

[Super Dickmann]

So, he decides to ignore Sylvanas just like he did with Garrosh? How's that a good defense for him, when he saw the rise of Garrosh happening right in front of him?

Once again, this is about Saurfang's honor. We already have many threads about Sylvanas' evilness.

Every thread is a Sylvanas thread.

[Deleted]

So he's not suicidal then.

He wants to die in battle, like all orcs. What a shocker.

"Suicide by police" is still suicide.

[Jester Joe]

So, he decides to ignore Sylvanas just like he did with Garrosh? How's that a good defense for him, when he saw the rise of Garrosh happening right in front of him?

Once again, this is about Saurfang's honor. We already have many threads about Sylvanas' evilness.

He "ignores Sylvanas"? I don't know about you, but refusing to go back to the Horde isn't "ignoring her".

Keep in mind Saurfang is pretty well loved by the Horde in general. Him refusing to work with the Warchief is a pretty clear message to those who love him.

"Suicide by police" is still suicide.

That is the most ridiculous comparison.

If he's so suicidal, why don't you link proof of some sort rather than "he was acting on his code of honor".
Something that flat out proves it, like when we have the short about Sylvanas throwing herself off of ICC.