[Book] Is Christie Golden up to date on the lore?

[MikeBogina]

I do? That's interesting. Please go ahead and post the part where I say, "Fuck Sylvanas" and give the middle finger as if you're making a point.

I was curious when I heard you made youtube vids and literally the second video I watched, there's you flipping her off, calling her the "Worse fucking character" and crying about how she's still alive because of her fanboys... sad

The fact that you watched the Horde's cinematic first and still threw that tantrum at Sylvanas just shows how much of a hater you are xD

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https://youtu.be/ZRIEkxRVrmY?t=278

Ohh look someone else found it too

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Get a new talking point broseph.

Salty boy here, get your salty boy here!

[Necroxis]

Mmmmm that tasty ad rev.



Also I'm not sure where you got the idea that I ever proclaimed I didn't hate Sylvanas. Pretty open about the fact my dude.

Do any of y'all have anything to actually contribute to the thread? As much as I appreciate your ad revenue, you're not exactly disproving the idea that you're triggered when you're dredging up 2 year old videos to pretend to make a point about them

[Aucald]

This isn't a thread about Sylvanas or unrelated YouTube videos - let's return to the actual topic at hand.

[Necroxis]

I also felt the same after reading it, but someone in another thread (can't find it atm) noted that this part of the story is probably meant to explain the positive influence of Azerite. This couple started out fighting and she hated him, but while working with Azerite, they become more peaceful and loving and were able to invent plenty of things, all of which were meant for protection or safety, not about causing harm, even though she earlier states that Goblins only care about blowing things up.
Their whole plotline shows that Azerite is in basic a positive influence, which might mean that the nascent titan is also in basic a positive force and perhaps not yet corrupted.

It does have positive aspects but it also does seem to exhibit traits similar to Arcane magic, where I could see down the road them experimenting with Azerite addiction. I mean that makes complete sense, too, considering the lifeblood of the planet is arcane magic, and Azerite is just the planet's lifeblood seeping to the surface.

I'd love for them to toy with the idea that they didn't take the opportunity to use with the Emerald Nightmare. The one being real, truly, gnarly and warped creatures. Maybe Elementals that just abnormally grow wildly out of shape when fusing with Azerite, perhaps those Azerite Earthen end up devolving into just a mess of limbs. As if the support/repair system of an organism just goes out of control and starts growing skin and arms and legs and eyes and such as if the body thinks its still developing.

[Deleted]

Talking about the Desolace... already looking forward to go there again on Classic and farm Centaur ears for no reason

[A Young Munch]

so can i get examples of christie goldens writing that was horrible? i listened to the audio book and i found it quite good. right now i just think people hate her because she isn't metzen.

I didn’t think her writing was particularly bad, but I think a lot of people are annoyed with her bias toward Anduin. And what I think is interesting is that everyone shit on Metzen when he headed lore, so I don’t think the vocal minority will ever truly be happy with the direction of the story.

[Nattwenny]

Whenever there is discontent within a community or a fandom, there is always a concerted effort to find a totem where it can be focused - even if this doesn't always make the most sense, and sometimes even if the person who becomes said totem doesn't deserve the scorn that is coming their way. "Before the Storm," I believe, epitomizes some of the issues people are having with the narrative decisions behind BfA, and so Christie Golden has unwillingly and probably quite accidentally stepped into the role of that totem to which derision and scorn is aimed. I also feel like it's quite odd as Golden has, in the past, been held up as one of the better authors of the novels of the Warcraft universe - it's been Richard Knaak who has held the post of whipping boy for having the worst novels.

Speaking more or less objectively, I don't think there's anything wrong with "Before the Storm" on a mechanical level - it is neither a terrible nor a truly great book, it's an interesting read that an even mix of merits and flaws, what I would generally consider a solid 3 out of 5 stars. If anything, as was said previously, I think the main issue with the book is that it was marketed wrong - if it had been called "Anduin: Before the Storm" I think many of the criticisms about its "bias" or "favoritism" could be put to rest. Unfortunately objectivity isn't the rule of the day here - the disappointed segment of WoW players were in search of a totem on which to pin their varied grievances, and Golden is in a prime position to fill that role, so that's what she's going to do. Just as Tseric, Street, Kosak, Hazzikostas, and others before her did in various different ways.

My only gripe with what you said is the white boys part. I've met plenty of horribly neck beardy Black dudes and Hispanic dudes in my gaming circles. Thank you for your time.

[Coconut]

The core idea of Anduin discovering that Undead are still "people" and subsequently trying to prove that to some of his citizens by arranging a "first ever" meeting is in itself ignoring lore. The Forsaken and other Undead have been involved with neutral factions for years, both civilian and military, so this really should be common knowledge by now, no matter how ignorant the citizens of Stormwind might be. Here are a few examples:

- The Darkmoon Faire has several Undead members, including Chronos, who has been part of the event since the beginning, when it was opening shop in Elwyn Forest, and Selina Dourman, the freaking information agent, who greets you at the very entrance of the faire. Recently they also added a whole new death metal band comprised entirely of Forsaken.
- Bergrisst has been the lead guitarist of the lite Tauren Chieftain rock band, which is surely popular with some people from the Alliance, as well as formerly neutral factions, such as the Dark Irons.
- Ever since Wrath, the Alliance employs death knights, all of which are canonically undead (at least according to gamepedia, but if you don't trust that, we can at least say the ones with the specific undead skin colors are undead). The population of Stormwind is certainly aware of that, since the entire admission quest involves the player Death Knight running through Stormwind and being pelted by the population, only to be accepted at the end.
- There have been several Forsaken that served in the Argent Crusade; the Westfall brigade, as well as many of Stormwind's bravest, were there in Northrend fighting the Scourge with them. Surely they would have found out about this and shared the information when they returned home.
- There has been a long standing rivalry between the wealthy Barov brothers, one living and the other Forsaken. These guys were a prominent noble family in Lordaeron and at various points cleansed the Scholomance and started a business venture together. Surely some people would have known about this?
- The Forsaken were present in Dalaran back in Wrath, and even more so in Legion. All the Horde guards are Forsaken, as well as several civilians, profession trainers and vendors.
- There are Forsaken in most of the class specific organizations that rallied to fight the Legion, as well as in the Armies of Legionfall. Faol himself has been part of a class hall provided by Velen since the start of the expansion; it is hard to believe that Velen, Anduin's mentor, would have waited until the end to tell him that one of the founding fathers of Stormwind's religion was "alive" and working with him, especially since Anduin was a priest. This makes you also wonder if Mathias Shaw bothered to inform the King that he was replaced by a dreadlord for a while, and how this led to the defeat at the Broken Shore and Varian's death.
- Back in Cata, Varian tried to colonize Andorhal with people from Westfall to get rid of the vagrant issue there (an incredibly daft plan). Many of them died and were raised by Sylvanas. Do these people not have relatives in Stormwind and thereabouts? It is more likely to be the case for them than for anyone from Lordaeron. They also have a fairly good reason to hate the Wrynns, and possible connections to the Defias (because why not?).
- A whole faction that helped us against the Legion in Azsuna was comprised of disembodied ghosts.
- Every time an Alliance character interacts with the Horde (meeting on a battlefield, neutral or not, interrogating a prisoner, saying hi in sanctuary zones, etc.), they can tell that Forsaken act and are treated like individuals, and mix well with the other races. They are certainly not a mass of ghouls who only answer to Sylvanas.

[Moozart]

so can i get examples of christie goldens writing that was horrible? i listened to the audio book and i found it quite good. right now i just think people hate her because she isn't metzen.

I am with you, I honestly felt like the WoW writers HEAVILY limited her writing. I have read many things in the past from her and this story felt like something Blizz would had put out more than her. I didn't hate it, its but some context into the lead in to BFA as was its point.

IT was the longest drawn out story ever as very little really happened in the grand scheme of things. The first quarter of the book was literally pulled from the quest line we had already seen in game.(the gobos in silithus, the dinner, galiwix, shaw telling anduin about it all, ect)

[Necroxis]

The core idea of Anduin discovering that Undead are still "people" and subsequently trying to prove that to some of his citizens by arranging a "first ever" meeting is in itself ignoring lore. The Forsaken and other Undead have been involved with neutral factions for years, both civilian and military, so this really should be common knowledge by now, no matter how ignorant the citizens of Stormwind might be..

Its less about Anduin himself and more him trying to facilitate peace by getting the random hillbilly farmer or lady who carries buckets of water to her home to realize it. Give them both peace of mind with their dead relatives and ease tensions between the factions. Because I think it IS pretty reasonable that the random citizen who isn't a soldier or an adventurer might remember the Scourge and then see these Undead and be freaked out.

[Coconut]

Its less about Anduin himself and more him trying to facilitate peace by getting the random hillbilly farmer or lady who carries buckets of water to her home to realize it. Give them both peace of mind with their dead relatives and ease tensions between the factions. Because I think it IS pretty reasonable that the random citizen who isn't a soldier or an adventurer might remember the Scourge and then see these Undead and be freaked out.

Stormwind citizens didn't see the Scourge for all that long, and if they did, they served in Northrend, and should know the Forsaken aren't the same. The hillbilly farmers aren't exactly the people who are driving the war, the nobles and soldiers are, with maybe some merchants and the city inhabitants in the mix. The smaller settlements outside Stormwind have their own local problems to worry about, very few if any connected to the (playable) Horde.

The people who actually had close relatives within the ranks of the Forsaken (loved ones, not their sister's husband's third aunt) would have tried to communicate with them on their own, like the Barov brothers did. Are the Barovs even mentioned as a precedent? It turned poorly for them, true, but they did try and succeed to meet without help from their faction leaders, and if they could do it, I'm sure there were others.

[Necroxis]

Stormwind citizens didn't see the Scourge for all that long, and if they did, they served in Northrend, and should know the Forsaken aren't the same. The hillbilly farmers aren't exactly the people who are driving the war, the nobles and soldiers are, with maybe some merchants and the city inhabitants in the mix. The smaller settlements outside Stormwind have their own local problems to worry about, very few if any connected to the (playable) Horde.

They know of the Scourge, Anduin directly says so in the novel. I would assume a giant army of dead creatures that would kill you and resurrect you into the army would be pretty well known even if they never personally saw it. People are stupid and suspicious as a group, it seems pretty easy to see how a lot of people might fear the Forsaken.

The people who actually had close relatives within the ranks of the Forsaken (loved ones, not their sister's husband's third aunt) would have tried to communicate with them on their own, like the Barov brothers did. Are the Barovs even mentioned as a precedent? It turned poorly for them, true, but they did try and succeed to meet without help from their faction leaders, and if they could do it, I'm sure there were others.

Maybe some of them would, why would you assume all of them would? We have perspectives from people like Rogers who directly says that she considers her family dead and wouldn't want to see them even if they were forsaken. We hear of other family members that directly refuse to meet with their Forsaken relatives in the novel when the Forsaken give Anduin their lists.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Or maybe, whitewashing going on with the Alliance is at the absurd levels currently.

Who is being white washed in the alliance? Pretty much every one is as they always have been other then genn who hates the forsaken in general less but still hates sylvanas.

[Verdugo]

Who is being white washed in the alliance? Pretty much every one is as they always have been other then genn who hates the forsaken in general less but still hates sylvanas.

Thats the thing, they are already so pure that the rest of the world must change to black so that they can stand out even more.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Stormwind citizens didn't see the Scourge for all that long, and if they did, they served in Northrend, and should know the Forsaken aren't the same. The hillbilly farmers aren't exactly the people who are driving the war, the nobles and soldiers are, with maybe some merchants and the city inhabitants in the mix. The smaller settlements outside Stormwind have their own local problems to worry about, very few if any connected to the (playable) Horde.

The people who actually had close relatives within the ranks of the Forsaken (loved ones, not their sister's husband's third aunt) would have tried to communicate with them on their own, like the Barov brothers did. Are the Barovs even mentioned as a precedent? It turned poorly for them, true, but they did try and succeed to meet without help from their faction leaders, and if they could do it, I'm sure there were others.

Why would soldiers in northrend thing he forsaken are not the same? The alliance and the horde worked together for like one zone then went back to war when the forsaken plagued the wrath gate. If any thing the soldiers would think them no different.

[Minikin]

Who is being white washed in the alliance? Pretty much every one is as they always have been other then genn who hates the forsaken in general less but still hates sylvanas.

Night eleves have taken a bit of a smacking. But could be argued both ways. It's just odd seeing a 10000 year old civilization being reduced to pumpkin farmers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Thats the thing, they are already so pure that the rest of the world must change to black so that they can stand out even more.

I don’t think you and me are playing the same game. anduin and velan are good guys sure but no one else on the alliance is pure.

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Night eleves have taken a bit of a smacking. But could be argued both ways. It's just odd seeing a 10000 year old civilization being reduced to pumpkin farmers.

Why is that odd though? They lost their home and are now supporting the war effort the best they can by supplying food to there army’s. If there not in the actual army it makes sense to support it the best they can.

[Minikin]

I don’t think you and me are playing the same game. anduin and velan are good guys sure but no one else on the alliance is pure.

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Why is that odd though? They lost their home and are not supporting the war effort the best they can by supplying food to there army’s. If there not in the actual army it makes sense to support it the best they can.

Odd because it doesn't fit (one of the reasons why this expacs story is whack as all hell). A civilization that old which actually peaked 10k years ago wouldn't take part in petty conflicts anyway. But even while participating getting so utterly schooled is even wierder.

[In Ogres We Trust]

The lore as it currently stands... sucks.

[Minikin]

Thats the thing, they are already so pure that the rest of the world must change to black so that they can stand out even more.

Eh not quite. That's just the theme of the horde and alliance. Both factions have some easily marked good people and some shady and some easily marked horrible people.

Sylvannas is just currently dialing the moustache twirl to 11, making everyone else seem like a loveable pink unicorn

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The lore as it currently stands... sucks.

I'm hoping this is their one last hurrah of faction war before they hold hands and live as one again (lol) cuz honestly besides that this faction war makes no sense