[Book] Is Christie Golden up to date on the lore?

[Blizzard Moneybot]

he at no point shows that he has power over any thing but stormwind.

And yet non-human leaders refer to the pubescent puke as 'my king' in game instead of 'hey little bitch'.

[Minikin]

I can’t really think of any point where the night elfs have really been shown in a good light when it comes to the wars they always seen to screw it up and rely on some one else all the way back to Warcraft3.

I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit that they move their entire navy to silithus, given that:
A. They live on an island so it's kind of key to defend it via ship
B. They are the the only alliance stronghold, besides exodar, but given that exodar is further north and west it puts them on the front lines.

It just reeks of inexperience, something they should have tons of. But to make the story move, in my opinion, they were diluted.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And yet non-human leaders refer to the pubescent puke as 'my king' in game instead of 'hey little bitch'.

Does it matter what they call him? He doesn’t rule over them at least as far as BTS.

[Wondercrab]

so can i get examples of christie goldens writing that was horrible? i listened to the audio book and i found it quite good. right now i just think people hate her because she isn't metzen.

People are just vocal now since she's the face of the writing team at Blizzard. It's like how people thought Ghostcrawler was ruining the game, then Ion Hazzikostas after him. Whoever stands out most among the crowd gets the finger of blame pointed at them. When all Golden used to do was write the occasional novel she was generally regarded as the saving grace of Wacraft's storytelling, but now that she's one of the major driving forces behind it people are laying all of the problems at her door. You see this happen a lot when fan favourite writers are given control of a large franchise. It doesn't matter if they're doing a pretty decent job overall, people will still search for grievances to attribute to them if they're unhappy with the product in general. People like the narrative that X person is ruining everything because it's more palatable than the confusing reality of how these things actually tend to work.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit that they move their entire navy to silithus, given that:
A. They live on an island so it's kind of key to defend it via ship
B. They are the the only alliance stronghold, besides exodar, but given that exodar is further north and west it puts them on the front lines.

It just reeks of inexperience, something they should have tons of. But to make the story move, in my opinion, they were diluted.

To be fair they seem to hold fine without the navy for some time and the last time the horde had something super powerful they nuked thereamore so it would make sense to stop them from getting more.

[Jeina]

The greatest problem people have with her is when the lore goes in a direction they don't want. For example, saying that Sylvannas act like a villain when they want to hear she's just unjustified, saying that Anduin being good is bad writing because they want him to be bad.
Any kind of progress will be received with hatred, actually. Especially if the change doesn't make their favorite character or faction look good.

My biggest problem with her current writing (and others) is the constant need to shoehorn in references to things actually in the game and the constant need to rehash and remind everyone of everything that happened over the course of the game.

[Deleted]

Neither of those things seem like a problem - desolace is still mostly dead and the pandaren should be a footnote when it comes to horde culture compared to the tauren.

The things that struck me as being odd were
a) The light being described as merely unpleasant for forsaken as opposed to painful or downright destructive - blizzards previous kayfabe was that ANY healing done by forsaken priests was THROUGH the shadow and was just light in-game for conveniences sake and that the light was agony to undead, though that's felt toned down on Blizzards end before this too.

b) The timeline with Alonsus Faol and Calia Menethil - she claims Alonsus helped her escape the scourge, but previous lore lists him as being a mindless member of the scourge and as being freed by Sylvanas in the novel, whereas I think previous lore had him freeing himself. I'm not sure how he could have helped Calia escape if he was freed by Sylvanas or even himself, since he was presumably killed or at least ressurected around Lordaeron if he was in the area.
He's definitely already dead when he helps Calia, but I can't see how that works out at all in the timeframe unless Calia escaped on her own and somehow survived for a long period of time before Faol was freed and helped her at a later date, but that's not how the story read, though I'm up for anyone clearing that up if they want to try.

Forsaken in general just seem horribly mischaractered though. Not purely Christie Goldens fault, they've felt toned down for years but the attempt to characterize them as just dead humans is painful and contrived and most heavily felt here. I'm going to hate to see it continue, but I suspect it's the course going forward since Blizzard seem to have decided they like the idea of morally grey at the moment. Achieving it by mischaractering THE most dubious faction in the horde seems like a horrible way of doing it though, the forsaken have always been the rotten segment of the horde that was propped up by the Kalimdor races positive traits, not the other way around.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

Does it matter what they call him? He doesn’t rule over them at least as far as BTS.

It matters immensely. 'My King' is bending a knee. Bending a knee to Stormwind isn't an Alliance, it's vassalage.

[Minikin]

To be fair they seem to hold fine without the navy for some time and the last time the horde had something super powerful they nuked thereamore so it would make sense to stop them from getting more.

True. They end up having it anyway and using it too though. It's just irksome to me cuz this expac foundation has so many holes (so far). I'm saving final judgement till it's all done with on live, though. Just right now it feels very patched up, right up from allied race choices (broken isle Dominion, meme elves to pushing the alliance to the space age yet non usable effectively making the vindicaar just a prop) to another faction conflict which will again end up with us teaming up, to the now over abundance of words such as "morally grey" "toxic masculinity" and "human potential".

But like I said. Despite misgivings I'm holding final judgement till the end. Who knows maybe they can make this work.

[Coconut]

Do you have any examples of them actually interacting though and not just being in the same area? The only ones I can think of end up with them fighting or it’s deathknights not forsaken who arnt the same.

At this point we are both entering imagination territory. I think it's normal to assume, given the locations where they show up and the people they interact with, that the (very obvious) information would spread. You are free to imagine that somehow they never interact, and if they do they never talk about it. Golden certainly did.

The best and first example I gave is the Darkmoon Faire. That's a place where you go with your children, and the second person to greet you, after the Gnome with the bird rides, is a Forsaken woman. The First Aid guy is also Forsaken - if your little one scratches his knee you take him to the dead guy - and two of the featured music bands have Forsaken members (one of them exclusively).

Sure, you can go ahead and argue that the Darkmoon Faire isn't canon, or Blight Boar isn't canon, or the general placement and identity of NPCs isn't canon, but by that logic we can argue for and against anything that doesn't fit our headcanon... And we certainly have to accept any retcon as long as it services Blizzard's current narrative intent, which I guess takes us full circle: Before the Storm isn't canon because Sylvanas is meant to be grey.

[Minikin]

It matters immensely. 'My King' is bending a knee. Bending a knee to Stormwind isn't an Alliance, it's vassalage.

Who knows maybe they shortened my high king to my king. High king doesnt mean vassal as it's a miliary title. Given that Anduin is the only real king alliance side (Genn has no land to rule over anymore and the rest don't have that title, KINDDD...of works but not too sure if this is actually the case. Pegging it to an assumption for now.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It matters immensely. 'My King' is bending a knee. Bending a knee to Stormwind isn't an Alliance, it's vassalage.

So how are they bending a knee when he has no authority over them and has to ask for help instead of giving orders like the horde? The alliance backs up anduin because they want to and can pull out when ever they like.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

So how are they bending a knee when he has no authority over them and has to ask for help instead of giving orders like the horde?

He does have authority over them. Look at the disaster at Lordaeron. That was him commanding the Alliance where to go and what to do. It wasn't just worthless humans dying in droves, he dragged the entirety of the Alliance into that fail by his own orders. Hey night elves, we know you just lost your home but come die by the dozen over here in Lordaeron so I can LARP the Lightbringer... uh oh I failed, oh well, still HIGH KING.

The alliance backs up anduin because they want to and can pull out when ever they like.

That'll be the day, let's act like the devs would ever dissolve the factions.

[Minikin]

He does have authority over them. Look at the disaster at Lordaeron. That was him commanding the Alliance where to go and what to do. It wasn't just worthless humans dying in droves, he dragged the entirety of the Alliance into that fail by his own orders. Hey night elves, we know you just lost your home but come die by the dozen over here in Lordaeron so I can LARP the Lightbringer... uh oh I failed, oh well, still HIGH KING.

That'll be the day, let's act like the devs would ever dissolve the factions.

That is what the alliance miliary functionality is though. Unlike the horde there are no oaths sworn to the warchief. It is a participation system.

As for the devs letting that happen that's a diff story

[Lorgar Aurelian]

At this point we are both entering imagination territory. I think it's normal to assume, given the locations where they show up and the people they interact with, that the (very obvious) information would spread. You are free to imagine that somehow they never interact, and if they do they never talk about it. Golden certainly did.

The best and first example I gave is the Darkmoon Faire. That's a place where you go with your children, and the second person to greet you, after the Gnome with the bird rides, is a Forsaken woman. The First Aid guy is also Forsaken - if your little one scratches his knee you take him to the dead guy - and two of the featured music bands have Forsaken members (one of them exclusively).

Sure, you can go ahead and argue that the Darkmoon Faire isn't canon, or Blight Boar isn't canon, or the general placement and identity of NPCs isn't canon, but by that logic we can argue for and against anything that doesn't fit our headcanon... And we certainly have to accept any retcon as long as it services Blizzard's current narrative intent, which I guess takes us full circle: Before the Storm isn't canon because Sylvanas is meant to be grey.

I would guess most soldiers who intetact with the forsaken don’t have a nice time and thoses who interact with say argent crusade members don’t believe it just like how adunin didn’t quite believe baine about sylvanas pulling out.

As far as what’s canon goes we already know not every thing in game is we have to just assume something in game is canon until we get confirmation from some where.

- - - Updated - - -

He does have authority over them. Look at the disaster at Lordaeron. That was him commanding the Alliance where to go and what to do. It wasn't just worthless humans dying in droves, he dragged the entirety of the Alliance into that fail by his own orders. Hey night elves, we know you just lost your home but come die by the dozen over here in Lordaeron so I can LARP the Lightbringer... uh oh I failed, oh well, still HIGH KING.

That'll be the day, let's act like the devs would ever dissolve the factions.

So you think the members of the alliance didn’t want revenge for the night elfs and the elfs wouldn’t want pay back? That anduin forced every one into it?

[Blizzard Moneybot]

That is what the alliance miliary functionality is though. Unlike the horde there are no oaths sworn to the warchief. It is a participation system.

As for the devs letting that happen that's a diff story

well then I'd like our rotten night elf leadership to stop kissing Anduin's fail ass and tell him to piss off, every Night Elf is needed in the fight for Kalimdor, not to go chase human shit all over the Eastern Kingdoms like a bunch of High Elf lapdogs.

So you think the members of the alliance didn’t want revenge for the night elfs and the elfs wouldn’t want pay back? That anduin forced every one into it?

The elves would want payback, the Alliance leadership doesn't care. If they did, they'd be going to Kalimdor and burning Orgrimmar to the ground, not bullshitting about in Lordaeron getting the remaining Night Elf forces slaughtered along with the rest of the Alliance in the 'Blight Breathing Challenge'.

'Retaking Lordaeron' even if it went well, is not achieving any victory for the Night Elves, it's a victory for human scum.
The devs wanted to make this idiocy like 'warcraft 2' and the first thing they did was take out the WC3 unique races.

[Eosia]

Agreed. It definitely felt shoehorned in there and how it resolved or it would better to say [B]didn't resolve.[/B] left much to be desired.

It also felt like it was doing nothing but shoving it in our faces that, Anduin is good, Sylvanas is bad, with no real nuance.

Keep in mind that the whole unravelling of "who is really good and who is really evil is going to take place IN BfA. This book is a prequel so it's going to follow the same arc as everything leading to Teldrassil.

They're not going to let the cat out of the bag in a book that takes place just after the "death" of Argus/imprisonment of Sargeras and just before the burning of Teldrassil.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

well then I'd like our rotten night elf leadership to stop kissing Anduin's fail ass and tell him to piss off, every Night Elf is needed in the fight for Kalimdor, not to go chase human shit all over the Eastern Kingdoms like a bunch of High Elf lapdogs.

The elves would want payback, the Alliance leadership doesn't care. If they did, they'd be going to Kalimdor and burning Orgrimmar to the ground, not bullshitting about in Lordaeron getting the remaining Night Elf forces slaughtered along with the rest of the Alliance in the 'Blight Breathing Challenge'.

'Retaking Lordaeron' even if it went well, is not achieving any victory for the Night Elves, it's a victory for human scum.
The devs wanted to make this idiocy like 'warcraft 2' and the first thing they did was take out the WC3 unique races.

Ah ok you want to look at it from a role play fanfic view, go ahead then.

[Minikin]

well then I'd like our rotten night elf leadership to stop kissing Anduin's fail ass and tell him to piss off, every Night Elf is needed in the fight for Kalimdor, not to go chase human shit all over the Eastern Kingdoms like a bunch of High Elf lapdogs.

The elves would want payback, the Alliance leadership doesn't care. If they did, they'd be going to Kalimdor and burning Orgrimmar to the ground, not bullshitting about in Lordaeron getting the remaining Night Elf forces slaughtered along with the rest of the Alliance in the 'Blight Breathing Challenge'.

'Retaking Lordaeron' even if it went well, is not achieving any victory for the Night Elves, it's a victory for human scum.
The devs wanted to make this idiocy like 'warcraft 2' and the first thing they did was take out the WC3 unique races.

Eh it's too late for that now. This is orcs vs humans #35568528. Just as orcs are the military backbone of the horde the humans are the military backbone of the alliance.

This is just what the lore we have been left with and that's that.

If they wanted to do any curve balls, it could be something like some faction swapping race, or faction war end with total merger. I see the zero chances of either of those happening.

As for lordearon disaster. From my point of view seems a bigger fail on the hordes part. Sylvannas wanted a quick strike that would start and end the war with her as the victor. She started a war, ended up losing her city. Sure alliance gets a fair smacking but her strategy failed (so far)

[ChampionChains]

I found a signed copy of Before the Storm on a used book shelf last week. Haven't read it yet, but I assume whoever sold it back to the bookstore really didn't like it. I'm expecting it to be as underwhelming as the rest of Golden's work, but gonna definitely read it regardless.