Regarding Horde Massacres: Totally Different Perspectives on Each Side?

[s3ge]

And here is the problem with that narrative:
As a Horde PC you may have the feeling that you are turning a blind eye on some shit...but if you can ignore that you are told a story of honorable conquest, strenght, courage and all that bullshit. Then you get (an attempt at) a compelling story how your leadership is not all you saw in them. Moral conflict. Internal tension. And in the end, you are redeemed, because you were just as much a victim as anybody else and can feel good about yourself bringing the baddies to justice.

Meanwhile on the Alliance side: You are an incompetent loser. You try and defend yourself...and lose, lose, lose and lose some more. Blizzard goes into excruciating detail to make you feel miserable about all the places and loved characters you lose. And lose. And lose some more. Meanwhile there is NO development in your story at all. The story is exactly as you saw it right from the start. No changes, no revelations, no development. NOTHING. And in the end you get to fight the big bad at the side of the honorable Horde PC because - of course - you would be too weak to do it on your own. Afterall, you are a loser. That's what the expansion has been telling you for 2 years. And by the way: All of those places you lost? Yeah, you aint getting them back. SORRY! But the Horde would feel bad about itself if you would. So suck it up and lose some more. That's your purpose in this game, afterall.

So which side has it better or worse? The side with story, developement and ALL of the NPCs that drive the story and gets to feel good about itself in the beginning and end without ever losing anything....or the side which has the moral highground at the cost of absolutely no development, no story that isn't a direct response to Horde story and gets to be depicted as sorry losers for the entire expansion?

Don't answer. It's a rhetorical question.

I agree with most of your points. The Alliance story has always been blunt and boring and that was even the case long before human potential became a thing.

You are, however, wrong about the "moral high ground" since the only difference between Horde and Alliance warfare is that one side likes to shout "for justice" before committing their crimes.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

There are 2 novellas coming about this, one for each side. My guess would be that how and what is told is very deliberate.

[Akta]

Leaving this here, so people finally get the meaning of this expansion

they don't get it.

[Jastall]

They're not all enslaved, the leaders are captured and you free them.That they're captured makes sense as the reason you're beating them up in the first place is to get leverage so the others leave. There's no obfuscation here, Sylvanas says this directly. As for the poison, you may not do it and it's not your objective, but it clearly happens in between the invasion, so I'm willing to assume it does canonically occur before the invasion, as there's no other way the place would be empty by then. That Sylvanas then leaves Forsaken there to tell the Alliance mean things while stabbing them makes sense as she does it after the horde forces pass through. And about pawning off the bad things to NPCs, the Rogue's hand in text talks about how swell murder is. The direction is consistent.

Not like it would be the first time you can kill non-combatants in gameplay but canonically didn't. You can go on a rampage in Stormwind during the Rogue class campaign (hell as an Alliance player you can go kill Anduin if you're geared!) but in canon obviously that didn't happen. The Deathlord has the option to almost exterminate the Red Dragonflight but the achievement for it was taken out and it won't be canon as dialog already shows there are survivors. Blizzard crafted the situation so they have all the necessary wiggle room to say that the Horce PCs were not involved in the worst of the atrocities when the time comes.

[Super Dickmann]

Not like it would be the first time you can kill non-combatants in gameplay but canonically didn't. You can go on a rampage in Stormwind during the Rogue class campaign (hell as an Alliance player you can go kill Anduin if you're geared!) but in canon obviously that didn't happen. The Deathlord has the option to almost exterminate the Red Dragonflight but the achievement for it was taken out and it won't be canon as dialog already shows there are survivors. Blizzard crafted the situation so they have all the necessary wiggle room to say that the Horce PCs were not involved in the worst of the atrocities when the time comes.

That's true, they do leave it open. But likewise it's open for you to do it and the game seems to assume the civilians were killed. As @Nymrohd explained, the quests are quite clear about this. There's no internal struggle with the Horde as of yet on the player level, with the exception of deciding not to use the plague and instead saving soldiers in Lordaeron and whatever ends up happening with Malfurion.

[Jastall]

That's true, they do leave it open. But likewise it's open for you to do it and the game seems to assume the civilians were killed. As @Nymrohd explained, the quests are quite clear about this. There's no internal struggle with the Horde as of yet on the player level, with the exception of deciding not to use the plague and instead saving soldiers in Lordaeron and whatever ends up happening with Malfurion.

Well the lack of internal struggle is another one of my problems, but I suppose that is not the thread for this issue right now. At least being able to get an explanation out of Sylvanas can go to show the PC isn't an uncaring drone I suppose.

[Feanoro]

*videos showing what happens*

So Malf shows up, spouts "Anduin wants hugs!" or however that translates, mass moonfires and buggers off? That's it?

Guess while Hordies were blinded, HR came and pulled him aside for a "discussion" on why we let the Horde do whatever the hell they want.

[THEORACLE64]

According to Red Shirt Guy:

So the Teldrassil questline's horde and alliance versions are completely incompatible. As in the events shown are so different they can't be reconciled. That's not "morally grey" writing, that's just really confusing.

For example in Darkshore, the Horde duels the furbolg chieftains in honorable combat to peacefully go through Darkshore without killing furbolgs. Alliance side the Horde has enslaved the furbolgs, put their chieftains in cages, and is forcing them to attack the Alliance.

In Astranaar, the Horde only attacks night elf combatants and takes great pains to ensure no civilians are harmed. Alliance side the Horde has rounded up all the civilians in the center of the town and mass executed them, with forsaken assassins and blight everywhere.

There’s a huge difference between different interpretations of events and events being different to the point that people either lived or died depending on the version.

- https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...35151854657537

The thing is, you're not seeing player vs player perspective. What the player does and sees and that the "Horde" does and what the Alliance sees are two separate things. It's not unreasonable to imagine the things the Horde are doing and what the Alliance player is seeing occurs after the Horde player has done their bit in the scenario, hence two different events.

[LazarusLong]

The thing is, you're not seeing player vs player perspective. What the player does and sees and that the "Horde" does and what the Alliance sees are two separate things. It's not unreasonable to imagine the things the Horde are doing and what the Alliance player is seeing occurs after the Horde player has done their bit in the scenario, hence two different events.

It's still dumb. Like why would you blight the place you already conquered? This "twist" has no other purpose but for the players to go for each other throats.

[delus]

Just more terrible Blizzard quality writing. They're trying to get us to hate each other but they're doing it in such a way that leaves everyone confused and unhappy.

It's shit like this that makes WoW one of the worst 'RPG'/MMO games for storytelling in the industry.

I'm curious what you would consider the best.

[Syegfryed]

So the Sylvanas redemption arc is:

She wasn't evil, it was just N'Zoth messing with everyones mind. She was doing the right thing all along. Jaina, Greymane and Anduin say "sorry we've doubted you" and all join her Crusade into the Void!

jesus that sound terrifying, its so shit that i can see happening

[Aeula]

I'm curious what you would consider the best.

In terms of MMO's? SWTOR, hands down. That game proves you can still have good storytelling in an MMO.

After that it'd be ESO. Both MMO's do a great job of presenting the story to the player without needing to hold their hand or rely on out of game sources (Though I understand SWTOR has some books, but I don't know what they're about so they can't have any relevance on the ingame plot).

[delus]

In terms of MMO's? SWTOR, hands down. That game proves you can still have good storytelling in an MMO.

After that it'd be ESO. Both MMO's do a great job of presenting the story to the player without needing to hold their hand or rely on out of game sources (Though I understand SWTOR has some books, but I don't know what they're about so they can't have any relevance on the ingame plot).

Really? SWTOR really shit the bed with the eternal empire.

[Aeula]

Really? SWTOR really shit the bed with the eternal empire.

Storytelling still beats anything in WoW.

If anything the storytelling got even better with eternal empire, even if the story went down hill (Although it's still miles better than WoW's story).

[Zulkhan]

The Horde would brook an Alliance occupation no more than the Alliance would brook one from the Horde. Reverse your sentiment and have Horde guards occupying Teldrassil and tell me what your thoughts are on that?

Which is, ironically enough, what Sylvanas' original plan intended to achieve.

This is actually hilarious when you think about it. So assuming Horde scenario happens first, we have player putting all the effort to only kill sentinels and duel with Furbolg chieftain to ensure safe passage, but as soon as they turn their back and leave, evil orc Joe couldn't help himself and puts all the furbolgs in cages, rounds up all the civies and turns on the meat grinder. Oh you Joe you!

It makes sense, Sylvanas is such a flower-picking leader after all and you totally need to do dat evil shiet when she's not around!

[Aucald]

Which is, ironically enough, what Sylvanas' original plan intended to achieve.

Does appear so from the quest-chains available in the Beta at the moment - I'm very interested to see how it went from a surgical strike on Malfurion and proposed occupation of Teldrassil to burning down the Great Tree itself.

[ello]

Does appear so from the quest-chains available in the Beta at the moment - I'm very interested to see how it went from a surgical strike on Malfurion and proposed occupation of Teldrassil to burning down the Great Tree itself.

inb4 it was an accident. It'll be Blizzard's way of showing us the destructive potential of Azerite.


Though I'm personally hoping Malfurion pulls a Nordrassil and blows it up himself. It would be pretty metal.

[Aucald]

inb4 it was an accident. It'll be Blizzard's way of showing us the destructive potential of Azerite.


Though I'm personally hoping Malfurion pulls a Nordrassil and blows it up himself. It would be pretty metal.

I don't think Malfurion would willingly choose such an option while the citizens of Darnassus are still present in the boughs of Teldrassil - he would at least try to evacuate the citizens before detonating it as a scorched earth type of tactic. Given the presence of Azerite on Darkshore I am imagining the Azerite theory will prove to be the catalyst, but I support we'll all see how it actually shakes out soon enough.

[ello]

I don't think Malfurion would willingly choose such an option while the citizens of Darnassus are still present in the boughs of Teldrassil - he would at least try to evacuate the citizens before detonating it as a scorched earth type of tactic. Given the presence of Azerite on Darkshore I am imagining the Azerite theory will prove to be the catalyst, but I support we'll all see how it actually shakes out soon enough.

Eh, it's a big tree. He could set it on fire and then finish the evacuation.

I do recall seeing some datamined mission table quests that indicate there is an ongoing evacuation going on even after SoL.

[Aucald]

Eh, it's a big tree. He could set it on fire and then finish the evacuation.

I do recall seeing some datamined mission table quests that indicate there is an ongoing evacuation going on even after SoL.

There is - Mia Greymane and several Night Elven Sentinels nearly die escaping from the burning boughs of Teldrassil due to smoke inhalation and serious burns.